Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[Steve1871]

Yes Andy

I saw the screws being unmarked, was waiting for your reply. I think it is just the right grip that might have been replaced. 
 

You say scabbard is from Solingen by the “C” proof. I always love to learn, do you have a list in a book somewhere or on line that you can download and post for us the letter proof list. I do not know of any list myself. It would be a big help. Do not think list is very long 

Thanks.      
Steve

[AndyBsk]

The best thing is looks at the Voronov Carter book S98/05 copy for detailed pictures on real pieces (or look here in forum on other similar Erfurt 1915 dated), what is clear that Solingen used C gothic letter 1914-18 with 2 or 3 exceptions, the different areas are well known described but changed in time and more time for various producers , i dont have any table avialable now, but Erfurt since 1914 used V letter, when i remember correctly. More tricky here is that Erfurt was most real a finisher and they got the bayonet rohlings from somewhere. In this case the acceptance was realised in Erfurt.

Edited 21 August , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thanks Andy, was just hoping some auther/ researcher made a chart/ table.

Still learning😊

[trajan]

Hi Steve,

Well, just like you I have been hors d'combat for a while - not so much the health (I am also diabetes 2, plus other problems), as managing the department and supervising graduate students on top of normal teaching. Sorry to hear about your troubles, and good to see you have overcome them - and my inbox is now cleared!

BUT, to your pointy things, another nice range of bladed weapons there, mate! Yes, I AM envious, but good to see all those things. Unit-marked 98/05's are not quite as rare as chicken teeth but not far from it either.

As AndyB says, there is no list or table as yet of inspector 'fraktur' marks - it certanly would help us all!

Take care,

Julian

[Steve1871]

Bayonet # 76.     
9/01/22

              
98/05aAS.  Saw back

Spine.     Crown/W/15.   Smaller crown/ letter  
Maker.    Erfurt.    
Unit:       None

An early model  with tall “ Ears”, yet a war time date. I guessing 1915 must have been last year of first model. Saw back making it more scarce. Pommel with single proof. Screws have old rust, wear, but think original to the bayonet. Looks like very faint Fraktur dead center on front screw

Scabbard has no unit, very good shape, marked on throat and final, both staples and seam intact. All tight

 

[AndyBsk]

Normally a scabbard has opened more the mouth hole on sawback spine , but it looks like proofed with same inspector proof, question little remains the sharpening of the blade. Nice early S98/05aAS.

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #77.        
9/5/22.    
 

98/05nA.    
 

Spine.         Crown/W/16.  Crown/C / ??    
Maker.        Simson &Co. Suhl.     
Unit.           L.B.8.41.1.93

I will leave this unit to the experts on the forum, Julian, Andy and others, depending on unit type, a regimental unit on a bayonet will be in 5 , sometimes only 4 parts

The pommel Frakturs (2) are great shape, odd too to have one underscored, never seen that on any Bayonet?! Amos the repair mark between the Fraktur’s,  of RC,this one is crowned, I think most of time this stamp does not have a crown Flash guard has small Fraktur of a crowned L,      
Grips have stamps on screws and washers, the two head stamps differ, so think one would be part of the repair, grips themselves are in great shape

Scsbbard, later metal body, the throat has the more common “V” shaped bottom for blade edge compared to last bayonet that ended with rounded type. The final has a Fraktur on one side and an (87) stamped, the throat here has the same number. I do not remember seeing this on other 98:05 scabbards, if common or not

This is only my second 98/05 Unit marked in my collection! Hope to get more

 

[AndyBsk]

War time units are always strange, i assume Landwehr Battalion? could be one explanation.

[Steve1871]

Hey Andy, you ever see a Fraktur underscored/ underlined like this, on pommel,and just one?? Never seen before

[bert.f]

Maybe, a police sign ?. Air Surveillance departments Berli

 

Edited 6 September , 2022 by bert.f

[Steve1871]

Landstrum Battalion..........................?

[AndyBsk]

Landsturm would be different script letter but by war time stamp this could be tricky, the scabbard is probably Solingen production, the proof on bayonet is most real german script L, and was used in Suhl area since 1916. Revision Commision stamp is typical for that area pieces.

the numbers could be 8.Army korps, and 41 for main unit, FAR to sample or others.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Steve, an excellent bayonet!!! 

[Sir Mortimer]

23 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey Andy, you ever see a Fraktur underscored/ underlined like this, on pommel,and just one?? Never seen before

The underlined part is there to differentiate between two different inspectors that coincidentally start with the same letter in their last name; e.g. "Abel" and "Albrecht".

An example is seen in "Handbuch deutscher Waffenstempel" on p.333; the text under a picture of the stamps on a P.08 says: "Left-hand side on a Pistole 08: The inspector stamps, one underlined for differentiation of names, and the imperial national eagle"

[Steve1871]

Thank’s Sir Mortimer,

the book you mention, is there an English version, or at least an ISB# ?? Author please

I had not heard of this,,       
min the RC stamp, Revision Control? I have that stamp on my Gew.98 rifle, an S.71 and some other bayonet. Even others seen on the web, none have been crowned like this one.The RC stamp is official on it’s own. I guessing wherever the repair depot, it is simply a NEW punch stamp with the crown

Care to try figure the unit number on this piece?

Thank’s again.       
Steve

[Sir Mortimer]

The book is called "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel: auf Militär- und Diensthandwaffen 1871-2000 (Morion - Schriftenreihe zur Waffenkunde und Wehrwissenschaft)" by Albrecht Wacker and Joachim Görtz †.

ISBN 3-932077-10-5

It's only available in german, unfortunately. It has a fixed price of 69€ plus shipping (and customs if you live outside the EU and have bad luck with the seller not declaring it as gift below a certain value).

Regarding the RC stamp, it's not a depot rework, but from the factory when it was produced. The left, underlined acceptance stamp indicates the following processing steps:

- The the guard piece was installed

- The bayonet mounting slit in the pommel was milled and checked for proper fit on a testing device 

The piece apparently didn't fulfill (one of) the required specifications and had to undergo the RC protocol, where it was seen fit for service by the RC inspector, despite missing the allowed tolerances. He then stamped his initials (underlined) and was required to stamp the RC next to it, too, in order to trace back the person responsible for giving clearence.

Later the final inspection was done (bayonet complete and provided with a scabbard) and the right hand acceptance mark was stamped on the pommel.

 

Personally, I didn't notice any specific differences in the RC stamp design when comparing it with examples provided in my reference books. I own one or two bayonets with an RC stamp, but I'd have to check if there are differences. Your theory of a "fresh" stamp could be true, stamps got worn out quite fast, especially during war time.

 

Regarding the unit marking: "Landsturm-Infanterie-Ausbildungs-Bataillon Mönchen-Gladbach (VIII.41) 1. Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 93".

 

But rolling things up from the back, beginning with the "8", it must certainly mean an army corps.

Moving on to he "LB" stamp: It's not a "Landwehr", but "Landsturm" in this case. This Army-Corps didn't have a "Landwehr" unit attached to it, only a "Landsturm"; scroll down to the very bottom of the list and click on "Landsturm-Einheiten VIII. Armee-Korps".

The blacksmith stamping this monstrosity of a name simply didn't have the space to write the army corps in the proper latin form "VIII" and used the arabic "8" instead.

Sources:

A. Wacker and J. Görtz: Handbuch deutscher Waffenstempel, p.344; 396-399

Thiem, Sebastian: Deutsche Versuchs- und Musterseitengewehre von 1895 bis 1945, p.564

Edited 7 September , 2022 by Sir Mortimer

[Steve1871]

Thank you Very much Sir Mortimer!

You saved the day and solved this mystery, I will definitely be getting this book. I really like this bayonet for the markings ( only my 2nd unit marked 98/05). Near impossible to find here in the State’s

😊😊😊

[trajan]

IIRC, the bayonets of some makers are more prone to have undergone 'RC' review than others. Either consistently bad products or an over-zealous inspector! 

Julian 

[AndyBsk]

Interestingly there exist wartime units of this army corps with correct roman digits,as mentioned war period units could be simplifyed and  not per manual,as this type of L was in prewar time used for Landwehr,here it should be Landsturm then.

Edited 9 September , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #78.      
9/12/22

98/05aA. Plain blade

 

Spine       Crown/W/15.   Small Crown/ letter.    
Maker.      Erfurt.       
Unit.         None

Nice wartime production, think 1915 was last year of first model. With scabbard. Blade very good, grips in good shape, a minor scratch in one grip, screws, I can not tell if Frakturs are worn away or what. All looks tight, no think grips were replaced.Single prof on pommel

Scabbard, seam and both staples intact, no dents/ creases, top chape just little loose. No shrinkage, bayonet goes in full. Throat with two crown “ C” proofs,  a very good last year aA bayonet

[AndyBsk]

Hard to say but grips screws are probably replacements,i would think there was a flasguard or the grips shrunked? Note the protruding tang,sharpening looks like later made.

[Steve1871]

I think grips shrunk with age. All depends on how each bayonet was stored for over a century 

[AndyBsk]

Yes this looks as period repair,most real post 1916? When a flashguard was present there would be cuts from lower grip area. Its possible the wood shrunked in size,by longtime storage.

Edited 13 September , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #79.        
9/19/22

S.98n/A

Spine.        Crown/W/04.   Crown/B?      
Maker.       Erfurt.   
Unit.          9.J.2.75.    Matching  

9th Jaeger Battalion 2nd Co. weapon 75 guess.The same gothic? Letter, I guessing is a “B” on spine, two more same on pommel and front face of guard. No able find full photo of bayonet but pretty much cover this piece 

[AndyBsk]

Matching unit is very good, same as the bayonet is in well preserved condition, i assume the unit is correct there and for Lauenburgisches 9.Jaeger Batallion.  The proof letter i believe is D.