WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

Thanks Mikey, and to you as well

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare war time unit marking for Landsturm. 

 98/05 aA plain bayonet with iron scabbard. 

Date is 1915 (W 15).

Manufacturer is R. Stock & Co. 

Berlin - Marienfelde. 

Unit marking is VIII.14.1.K.172

Which is for the 14 Landsturm Infanterie Bataillon Koln II, der Viii Armee - Korps, 1st Company, number of weapon 172.

A very rare unit marking, made during ww1. 

Edited 27 December , 2020 by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Strange unit, wrong side placed and as You explained it could be VIII. Army corps, 14.LIB and 1.K and weapon nr.17 with strange 2? Nice piece offcoarse.

Edited 27 December , 2020 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

3 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Strange unit, wrong side placed and as You explained it could be VIII. Army corps, 14.LIB and 1.K and weapon nr.17 with strange 2? Nice piece offcoarse.

Andy

Do not forget that front line armourers, did not had enought time, to put unit markings specifically, as they did before the war. 

On this perspective, all war or front line unit markings, are different than the unit markings before the war or the unit markings made at the back of the front line. 

Landsturm regimental markings are very rare to find them and with a variety of markings. 

Regards

D. 

[trajan]

On 25/12/2020 at 12:32, MikeyH said:

Demitrios,

 

Happy Christmas to you and your family, and a brighter New Year.

 

Mike.

 

I'll second that even though a bit late for the Christmas wishes!

 

Julian

[zuluwar2006]

A very happy new year to all, with health and covid free. 

And because I could not find something to photograph, here is something from my car🙂

[Steve1871]

You actually ran out of your rare, unit marked bayonets to photograph?? I never see 98/05 unit marked in the U.S.,   Seems they are all in the U.K.,  Your Collection or in Europe. Give it time, another one will show up soon

 

I hope you are fully healed now?? Can go back to work I hope. Take care Demitrios 

Steve

[zuluwar2006]

On 25/11/2020 at 16:01, zuluwar2006 said:

thanks steve

i will answer to our friend as soon as i feel better.

for now, another 98/05 bayonet, plain this time, and with no scabbard.

date W 15, for 1915, on the spine of edge of blade and with a steel flashguard.

Model nA.

WEYSBERG KIRSBHAUM is the manufacturer.

B.2.J.E. ? .647 is the unit marking [i cannot say which is the missing number, as it is very faint].

A war time unit marking very rare.

For 2nd Kgl. Bayer. Jager - Ersatz - Bataillon, number of weapon 647

a war time unit, so a very rare unit marking.

i will post some more detailed photos soon.

Regards

D.

 

 

 

Some more photos from this one. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

An extremely rare to find PFM 71 Württemberg but unfortunately without scabbard, Type III
(Württembergisches Pionier-Faschinenmesser). 

This type has different longer fuller, and introduced in 1897 when more bayonets were ordered from the firm of F A Hermes Solingen. 

The fuller start with a square shaped fuller (as the 1st model) but end in a tapering rounded curve. 

The Kingdom of Wurttemberg had a single Pioneer Bataillon formed from their Pionier Korps, which originally had 3 Field Companies and one Fortress Company. 

The Pionier were based at Ulm since 1857.

From the 18 of December 1871, were numbered the 13th in line with Prussian and Saxons Bataillons.

There were 3 Companies, until a 4th was formed on thw 1st of November 1872.

Wurttemberg rejected the sawbacked blade, issued to all the other Bataillon and retained their preffered blade (for the Wurttemberg Pionier - Faschinenmesser M/1857) but rehilted to fit the Gewehr 71, as this bayonet. 

The blade form of this bayonet, had been originally introduced with the Hircschfanger fur die Scharfschutzenbusche M 1843 (bayonet for the Sharpshooter rifle M 1843). 

Regards

D. 

 

[AndyBsk]

Nice bayonet, even in worser condition.

Ruediger speaks that the designation of previous modell is Haubajonett M1860 not M1857, which is wrongly described in literature, pg.134,5. Old blades were used in I.type of bayonet. When there is F.A.Hermes so it should be III.type like You corectly mentioned.

[Steve1871]

Hey Demitrios 

glad you doing a little better, I driving now, for a few hours at least, no time to look at my pics, I actually just got another one, the others I posted have scabbards, but last one here does not.  You mention a m1857? I do not know of that one. I read/ thought ALL  Wurtt. M71 PFM , double edge we’re. ONLY made for the M71 rifle, 3 variations of fuller

You are only one I know say they converted from earlier model. I do not believe they are conversions

 

Like I said before, whenever I get something trade, eventually you will find one. I am running out of rare stuff that you do not have.

71pfm. Bavarian,  71/84mS. Now this😳

[Steve1871]

You say that Bavarian 98/05  B.2.J.E

Bayer is  for Bavaria. But what does  kgl mean?

[trajan]

Steve,

 

KGL short for Königlich, meaning 'Royal', as in (Kgl) 'B', 'Royal Bavarian' - drive carefully mate and hope you had a good New Year!

 

Julian

[zuluwar2006]

9 minutes ago, trajan said:

Steve,

 

KGL short for Königlich, meaning 'Royal', as in (Kgl) 'B', 'Royal Bavarian' - drive carefully mate and hope you had a good New Year!

 

Julian

Steve, 

Julian is absolutely correct. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

13 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey Demitrios 

glad you doing a little better, I driving now, for a few hours at least, no time to look at my pics, I actually just got another one, the others I posted have scabbards, but last one here does not.  You mention a m1857? I do not know of that one. I read/ thought ALL  Wurtt. M71 PFM , double edge we’re. ONLY made for the M71 rifle, 3 variations of fuller

You are only one I know say they converted from earlier model. I do not believe they are conversions

 

Like I said before, whenever I get something trade, eventually you will find one. I am running out of rare stuff that you do not have.

71pfm. Bavarian,  71/84mS. Now this😳

Steve, 

You have an amazing collection, worthing a lot of thousands!!! 

Keep in mind that in US, is more difficult now to get rare bayonets in reasonable prices, as the last 7 years prices goes up. 

In Europe is the same situation, but at least in small antiques shops (or flea markets) you can still get something rare in low price. 

Regards

D. 

13 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey Demitrios 

glad you doing a little better, I driving now, for a few hours at least, no time to look at my pics, I actually just got another one, the others I posted have scabbards, but last one here does not.  You mention a m1857? I do not know of that one. I read/ thought ALL  Wurtt. M71 PFM , double edge we’re. ONLY made for the M71 rifle, 3 variations of fuller

You are only one I know say they converted from earlier model. I do not believe they are conversions

 

Like I said before, whenever I get something trade, eventually you will find one. I am running out of rare stuff that you do not have.

71pfm. Bavarian,  71/84mS. Now this😳

Also the only convertion from the older 1857 model, was to fit it for M 71.

So not to the blade, but on crossguard. 

 

[AndyBsk]

As mentioned by Ruediger there is no M1857. The M1857 is a infantry rifle, in 1860 was approved a artillery modell of rifle, which used the Haubajonett M1860, in first period pioneers didnt attached the bayonet on rifle only Artillery but has identical artillery model rifle 1860.

In 1870 in Wuerttemberg was rearming for Dreyse rifles by pioneers by using of reworked older rifles.

Even in 1876 they started to rearming for Jaegerbuechse M1871, large part of M1860/70 bayonet used older blades for new PFM1871 made with newer S71 handles grips.

Major  producer form Wurttemberg blades was Gebr.Weyersberg Solingen

 

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

As mentioned by Ruediger there is no M1857. The M1857 is a infantry rifle, in 1860 was approved a artillery modell of rifle, which used the Haubajonett M1860, in first period pioneers didnt attached the bayonet on rifle only Artillery but has identical artillery model rifle 1860.

In 1870 in Wuerttemberg was rearming for Dreyse rifles by pioneers by using of reworked older rifles.

Even in 1876 they started to rearming for Jaegerbuechse M1871, large part of M1860/70 bayonet used older blades for new PFM1871 made with newer S71 handles grips.

Major  producer form Wurttemberg blades was Gebr.Weyersberg Solingen

 

Carter is referring exactly on volume IV of his book about German Bayonets "... retained their preffered blade (for the Wurttemberg Pionier - Faschinenmesser M/1857) but rehilted to fit the Gewehr 71...".

Rudiger is referring something else, but I am stick on Carter, whose opinion is following and Roy Williams. 

[zuluwar2006]

The so called by Carter M 1857, is really the Vereinsgewehr 1857.

This was named the Infantry rifle, particularly in Württemburg, where the Vereinsgewehr Rifle would be developed to perform in several roles.

A modification on the Vereinsgewehr 1857, was the  Cavalry Carbine, 1860. 

The Cavalry Carbine of 1860 was the first carbine version of the Vereinsgewehr Rifle and was designed specifically for the cavalry. The trend would be followed in the other German states, with the Rider Carbine and Pioneer Carbine being developed in the same year. All featured a 19.7in (500mm) barrel and shorter ramrod.

Another modification was the Jäger Rifle, 1860 and this is what Rudiger mentioned. 

The Jäger Rifle, designed specifically for the units of the same name, featured a 29.5in (750mm) barrel. 

The Vereinsgewehr Rifle was commissioned in 1857 and entered production in the same year. However it was not distributed to the forces of the three states until 1860. This is the misunderstanding or confusion often noticed, because of the close dates for  the commission, production and distribution of those rifles and the modifications. 

Production later ended in 1866, with the Vereinsgewehr's service ending a year later.

The rifle was popular with Jäger units, and gained a reputation for being highly accurate.

The only major conflict that the Vereinsgewehr Rifle was used in was the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, with the Austrian Forces (and Baden, Hesse and Wurttemberg forces) using both the Vereinsgewehr Rifle and the Lorenz Rifle (of Austria). However the conflict was lost, with Prussian forces being equipped with the Dreyse Needle gun (so called because of the shape of the firing pin which struck the primer in the cartridge) which had a greater rate of fire due to a shorter reload time.

The Vereinsgewehr Rifle would be replaced by the breech loading Dreyse Needle gun after the conflict, as Prussia continued its move to unify the Germanic states.

The Vereinsgewehr Rifle is the least well known of the Minie Rifles, due to its low production number (around 70,000) and the fact that the Springfield Model 1861 and Pattern 1853 Enfield were among the most renowned (and produced) guns of the era.

Hope this helps. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Problem by Carter is he is not german and didnt look into german archives, F.Rudiger is the best source about the german bayonets of 19 century, there are exact numbers date when it was used, certainly pioneers used the Artillery buechse M1860 in period of 69-72 and later with reworked Dreyse to Jaegerbuchse M60/70. The PFM71 was replaced in 1876 or post this datum. See Rudiger IV volume pages 134-6

Thanks for explanation of the M1857 rifle.

Edited 2 January , 2021 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

12 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Problem by Carter is he is not german and didnt look into german archives, F.Rudiger is the best source about the german bayonets of 19 century, there are exact numbers date when it was used, certainly pioneers used the Artillery buechse M1860 in period of 69-72 and later with reworked Dreyse to Jaegerbuchse M60/70. The PFM71 was replaced in 1876 or post this datum. See Rudiger IV volume pages 134-6

Thanks for explanation of the M1857 rifle.

 

It is true that Carter had no or very limited German, and I am not certain who translated stuff for him, much of it taken from F.Ehle, althpugh he barely acknowledges that. I trust that Rudiger checked and used the sources but very annoyingly he gives no references to where he found these making it impossible to check!

[AndyBsk]

Sources of Rudiger are on page 482-486 of Volume IV to sample.

There are german Army archives, books of Regiments, original manuals. This all information complex is only by Ruediger,no other german author.

 

[trajan]

On 03/01/2021 at 12:36, AndyBsk said:

Sources of Rudiger are on page 482-486 of Volume IV to sample.

There are german Army archives, books of Regiments, original manuals. This all information complex is only by Ruediger,no other german author.

 

 

True, he gives his sources, but when he mentions a specific date or detail about a specific bayonet or rifle I would like a book and a page reference rather than having to work my way through that entire list to see where he got the fact from! The lack of a proper bibliography is the biggest problem and failing in what is otherwise a wonderful source of data. 

[AndyBsk]

I understand You, unfortunally when he mentione on one page 4-5 sources, all this would be on that page under line, which would be problem by printing, the books are older already and similar depends on printing. Some books have more literature and sources on page as normal text, that is little confusing. The best way is added small links to literature on end of book. Anyway he is using mainly original service publication or army archives, that are not avialable for normal collector.

[zuluwar2006]

On 16/10/2018 at 21:27, zuluwar2006 said:

HERE IS A VERY NICE EXAMPLE OF A NAVAL MARKED 84/98 BAYONET [NOT MINE].

A VERY RARE MARKING, WHICH WHEN YOU SEE IT, YOU BUY IT ASAP.

REARDS, D.

 

I am adding photos from an extremely   rare naval marked 98/05 bayonet, just for the record. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Very strange proof,the crown is not part of the die? Any other navy unit stamp outside this M stamp?