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WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION


zuluwar2006
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1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

The area of grip and crossguard would be interesting to see, as the locking lenght of M89 is identical with G88 for 100mm probably , but the position of barell ring was different, personally dont believe the germans made new crossguard with hook, only changed the crosspiece probably, normally it should have serialing on crossguard, here painted black. This is probably not corect designation as EB more real reworked captured bayonets to G88. there exist photos of similar bayonets used by Guards of Landsturm. From picture of Merys book? there is a dovetail shortening of barell ring area.

Αndy

Any rewoeked caprured bayonets, catalogued as ersatz bayonets. 

Regards

D. 

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Thats a problem declaring to sample a russian M91 bayonet  as a Ersatz bayonet EB is wrong as it was used with origin rifle Mosin91.

From discussion with german collectors the complete concept of Ersatz bayonet is wrong as this term was not used by germans in WW1 only by Austrians, there existed only Aushilfe SG for own  german rifles, and Aptierte SG  adapted or modified  bayonets what means refurbished various country bayonets for german rifles.  The captured bayonets for captured rifles could be not declared as Ersatz.

Wrongly started by Carter and continued by Williams and Mery. these are only collectors designations.

Belgian M1889 carbine bayonet aptiert for Gew.88 would be the correct name probably.

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8 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Thats a problem declaring to sample a russian M91 bayonet  as a Ersatz bayonet EB is wrong as it was used with origin rifle Mosin91.

From discussion with german collectors the complete concept of Ersatz bayonet is wrong as this term was not used by germans in WW1 only by Austrians, there existed only Aushilfe SG for own  german rifles, and Aptierte SG  adapted or modified  bayonets what means refurbished various country bayonets for german rifles.  The captured bayonets for captured rifles could be not declared as Ersatz.

Wrongly started by Carter and continued by Williams and Mery. these are only collectors designations.

Belgian M1889 carbine bayonet aptiert for Gew.88 would be the correct name probably.

I agree, bit still an ersatz bayonet. 

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Here are some more photos from the very rare ersatz belgian  M 1889 artillery carbine bayonet (EB 94).

The muzzle ring has been repositioned so that the muzzle ring is closer to the back of the hilt. Also the indide of theboriginal catch has been altered to fit the Gew 71, 71/84 and 88.

The scabbard is an all steel plack painted flat iron scabbard with parallel line decoration at the front and rear. 

And a photo with a german soldier with fixed the EB 94 ersatz bayonet on a Gew 88.

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Thanks for add. pictures, anyway the lug is identical with Mauser as this is a Mauser design rifle so no refurbishing was done probably with the locking lug, the crossguard is covered with black paint so no visible of any details of reworking on crossguard.

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Andy,

Here are photos from a same ersatz bayonet on Christian Merry book. 

The muzzle ring and the reworking from the original belgian bayonet, is identical. 

Comparing the original belgian M 1889 bayonet with the EB 94, is very easy to see the fact that muzzle ring has been repositioned so that the muzzle ring is closer to the back of the hilt.

I am adding some photos from the original m 1889 belgian bayonet, so you will see the different of the muzzle ring, comparing to the EB 94 bayonet. 

 

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The last presented bayonet (not a bayonet - as not attachable on rifle)  is in reality only Sidearm for Musicians ,done without possibility to attach it on rifle. Similar pieces exist even as Comblain M1882 . Anyway its same constructed as normal bayonet M1889 for Fortress Artillery and Gendarmerie . Thanks for adding it, but i known belgian bayonets M1889 short has similar high ring. EB94 is a Mery or Carter designation. I would only known how it was realised, because i dont believe germans would produce similar new crossguard with quillons. Secondly the blade is too long for any combat units, and were probably used by POW camps or other guards.

 

Edited by AndyBsk
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Andy, 

I believe you are wrong. 

Here is an original Belgian M 1882 Musician's Bayonet for the Comblain Rifle System.

This bayonet was intentionally made not to mount on a rifle and it has no hole in the muzzle ring or a slot in the pommel.

The left ricasso is marked "ALEX.COPPEL SOLINGEN" around the scales trademark. The top of the pommel is marked "M" with a number below a lyre. 

The EB 94 bayonet and the original belgian m 1889 bayonet  i have posted, has

A) completely different blade, 

B) slot in the pommel

C) muzzle ring

D) no manyfacturer as if for musician. 

Also the original belgian m 1889 i have posted to show the difference between muzzle rings on german convertion and original belgian m 1889 bayonet, has nothing common (on blade) compared to the M 1882 for musician garde civique. Screen-Shot-2020-11-10-at-12_28_30.png.b8e66b17377a04f9f360a8ce5c6d112d.png

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Your crossguard does not look modified, It is strait, not bend or otherwise moved back? The one with grips

Edited by Steve1871
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We talk here not about blade as M1882 had different shape but about system that without bayonet slot and press button were used bayonets as sidearms mainly for soldiers wout rifle or by musicians, similar way by swiss modells exist pieces with drilled ring but no pommel slot, maybe on M1882 are not drilled barell ring, i am not expert on belgian bayonets for musician but in Your post of M1889 last picture is bayonet with no possibility to attach on rifle.

1040305408_MusicianM1889.jpg.74d6b442123104dc4fb0356537f2b21e.jpg

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On 16/08/2021 at 11:41, AndyBsk said:

Thats a problem declaring to sample a russian M91 bayonet  as a Ersatz bayonet EB is wrong as it was used with origin rifle Mosin91.

From discussion with german collectors the complete concept of Ersatz bayonet is wrong as this term was not used by germans in WW1 only by Austrians, there existed only Aushilfe SG for own  german rifles, and Aptierte SG  adapted or modified  bayonets what means refurbished various country bayonets for german rifles.  The captured bayonets for captured rifles could be not declared as Ersatz.

Wrongly started by Carter and continued by Williams and Mery. these are only collectors designations.

Belgian M1889 carbine bayonet aptiert for Gew.88 would be the correct name probably.

 

On 16/08/2021 at 11:50, zuluwar2006 said:

I agree, bit still an ersatz bayonet. 

True... But as Carter himself stated in his volume III, the term was used by C.Dangre when he published the first accounts of these bayonets, and although 'wrong', it has become become generally accepted as meaning a 'substitute' in English when applied to, e.g., these bayonets.

On a similar note, there is no 'Hittite' language or script, a name used in the 19th century to define cuneiform tablets written in the 12th century BC in a language properly known as 'Neshli', and likewise there were no Hittites - they described themselves as the people living in the land of the Hatti! But, it is impossible to change  such well used and familiar terms - just as with 'Ersatz bayonets'...!!!

Julian 

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Andy,

In my opinion:

The barrel ring in the Dimitrios bayonet is closer to the handle than in the oryginal Belgian Artillery Fortress M1889. Therefore, the German modification in most Belgian 1889 bayonets adapted to the Mauser 88 was to cut the ring. Unless the bayonet was used by German units with the original Belgian rifle 1889. In Roy's book, a photo of the MG staff with a Belgian 1889 with a cut ring. There is an interesting modification in Roy's book, which consists in cutting off the original ring and adding one set on the hinge. Also closer to the handle to fit the German 1888 rifle

In my opinion this fairly rare (rather not extremely rare, that is the rubber scabbard made by KRONOS) is taken of M1898.

 

Best regards Rafal

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3 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

We talk here not about blade as M1882 had different shape but about system that without bayonet slot and press button were used bayonets as sidearms mainly for soldiers wout rifle or by musicians, similar way by swiss modells exist pieces with drilled ring but no pommel slot, maybe on M1882 are not drilled barell ring, i am not expert on belgian bayonets for musician but in Your post of M1889 last picture is bayonet with no possibility to attach on rifle.

1040305408_MusicianM1889.jpg.74d6b442123104dc4fb0356537f2b21e.jpg

I will agree with the comment of Julian, for the term ersatz bayonet, althought Andy has a point. 

Now, about this bayonet i post photos. It is in fact the Belgium M-1889 Extra Long Bandsman Bayonet Sidearm. 

It has use only as sidearm, i post the wrong photos. 

Here are the photos i wanted to post aboutvthe original M 1889 carbine bayonet. 

It is obvious the difference on muzzle ring compared to the converted bayonet by Germans during ww1. 

Regards

D. 

BE114K.jpg

BE114A.jpg

BE114J.jpg

BE114E.jpg

BE114B.jpg

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To Rafal,i understand offcoarse by cuted ring it was used as a sidearm with not fixing on rifle, as only the adapter could nt provide stabile fixing on rifle. I known that germans repositioned the barell ring on crosspiece to make it adaptable for using on Gew88 rifle.

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4 hours ago, Rafal1971 said:

Andy,

In my opinion:

The barrel ring in the Dimitrios bayonet is closer to the handle than in the oryginal Belgian Artillery Fortress M1889. Therefore, the German modification in most Belgian 1889 bayonets adapted to the Mauser 88 was to cut the ring. Unless the bayonet was used by German units with the original Belgian rifle 1889. In Roy's book, a photo of the MG staff with a Belgian 1889 with a cut ring. There is an interesting modification in Roy's book, which consists in cutting off the original ring and adding one set on the hinge. Also closer to the handle to fit the German 1888 rifle

In my opinion this fairly rare (rather not extremely rare, that is the rubber scabbard made by KRONOS) is taken of M1898.

 

Best regards Rafal

Rafal

I believe you are refering to this convertion, which is pretty scarce to find, only 2 i have seen in 25 + years of collecting. 

The original BELGIAN 1889 BAYONET, CONVERTED TO FIT THE GEWEHR 71, 71/84 AND 88 RIFLE. 

THE MUZZLE RING and part of the crossguard HAS BEEN CUT AND a new crossguard fitted and fixed, REPOSITIONED WITH A STEEL PIN, TO FIT THE GEWEHR 71, 71/84 AND 88.

ROY WILLIAMS BOOK, PAGE 396, EB 95

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Much more practical and easier way to convert the barell ring position as the dovetailed version, there is 20000 numbering so the origin Belgian M1889 Fortress Artillery were not so rare, possible the german conversion could be declared as scarce in comparing of untouched condition. the V mark on other side of crosspiece means the bayonet served in 9. Regiment of Vestingsartillery or Fortress Artillery.

Edited by AndyBsk
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Andy,

11 bayonets  of both converted ersatz types EB 94 have been catalogued in museums and private collections, according  R. W. 

So very rare indeed the german convertion. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Nice bayonets Dimitrios. Here's a scarce photo of Landsturm with an EB95 mounted on a Gewehr 71. There's also some modified Gras bayonets as well.

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If my notes are correct, then as they seem to have a battalion number only on their collars, then this should be before early 1915 when the system of collar insigna combining Armee Korps with battalion number was introduced. 

Julian

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  • 1 month later...
On 06/09/2021 at 22:04, motojosh said:

Nice bayonets Dimitrios. Here's a scarce photo of Landsturm with an EB95 mounted on a Gewehr 71. There's also some modified Gras bayonets as well.

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Excellent photo!!!! 

Thank you for sharing it with us!!! 

Regards

D. 

On 07/09/2021 at 08:51, trajan said:

If my notes are correct, then as they seem to have a battalion number only on their collars, then this should be before early 1915 when the system of collar insigna combining Armee Korps with battalion number was introduced. 

Julian

Julian

Correct as always!!! 

Regards

D. 

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Here we have a very nice and rare to find prussian Fusilier S M/1860 bayonet. 

Cast brass hilt with lined decoration on the front side, steel push button and leaf spring secured by a screw. 

The reverse of the hilt unit marked 86.R.5.174

For 86 Fusilier Regiment "Konigin" (Queen) for state of Schleswig Holstein, which belonged to the 18th Infantry Division during ww1 and to the IX Army Corps. 

This regiment was raised on 27 September 1866 and the Garrison stated on Flensburg, Sonderburg. 

The back edge of the hilt numbered 6223.

Steel crossguard with "S" shaped quillions and full a muzzle ring. 

The crossguard underside stamped Crown FW 61 above a crown A 

Single edge steel pipeback blade dated FW 61(?) above a crowned A(?). 

Manufacturer is G.W in oval. 

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Interesting early bayonet, how large is the MRD of ring? should be for Dreyse Zundnadel Gewehr probably. The unit should be corect for Fusilier Regiment nr.86, the bayonet is called by Rudiger Fuesilier Seitengewehr M/60 like You described.

GWB in oval is for Gebr. Weyersberg.

Edited by AndyBsk
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42 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Interesting early bayonet, how large is the MRD of ring? should be for Dreyse Zundnadel Gewehr probably. The unit should be corect for Fusilier Regiment nr.86, the bayonet is called by Rudiger Fuesilier Seitengewehr M/60 like You described.

GWB in oval is for Gebr. Weyersberg.

Andy,

you are correct,

GWB is mentioned in the oval circle, not just G.W as i said. 

Yes, 

FUSILIER S M/60 is the  CORRECT MENTION FOR THIS BAYONET. 

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