WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

Thank you both, Demitrios for the bayonet and you Sir Mortimer , as collectors and enthusiast, when you see a challenge, you, we love to dive in to find the answer. I work/ live in a truck . No room to keep a library to research.  Would really help if I knew German

[AndyBsk]

Thanks for clearing it about the 3EMGK anyway  the stamp is not complete as is missing the Army Korps, which is probably obvious on war time units. Same as the size of stamp is not under manual.

About the letter T in cursive i would disagree, this is a letter T certainly so used in manual, but i will look at my manual at home from 1897, the C is different in above part, similar upper part has only T letter, the inspector proofs with T are very similar as here. 

It would be logicaly the BATA is for Armee Telegraphen Abteilung, anyway its a prewar marking not war, as in war were other details added numbers etc.

Edited 13 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Sir Mortimer, thanj you for the comments.

About your opinion "the lower curve of the letter runs off to the left instead of the right, thus making it a true cursive "T"... ". 

That is correct, so defitely a "T", as Andy said. 

This is my opinion, as Andy's. 

 

[zuluwar2006]

Sir Mortimer, 

I agree absolutely about the unit marking, as belonged to the 3d Ersatz MG Kompanie. 

And it make sense as the bayonet manufactured on 1916, probably the same time this unit composed. 

[zuluwar2006]

Sir Mortimer, 

You write "Bekleidungsamt/Belagerungs-Armee-Telegraphen-Abteilung"..a "clothing office/siege-army-telegraph-department"?... ". 

You are correct on this point of view. 

Since i could not get any same unit marking, on my mind i had the explanation as siege army telegraph department, but still i was not sure. 

Your explanation of the unit marking make sense and after my research this is correct. 

Steve, Andy and Sir Mortimer, thank you for your help and remarks. 

Regards

D. 

 

[AndyBsk]

The 1916 as production for this ASG bayonet is too late probably, it was produced in 1915, but could be used later as marked with this unit, anyway the production of S98/05 in 1916 was already on its high point.

[trajan]

23 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

I would think unit is missing a dot after 8, 

812 seems far too high a number for a company

Strictly speaking, the regulations stated that bayonets were to be noted and marked serially as issued to a unit. But, yes, could be missing a dot!

Julian

[Sir Mortimer]

13 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Thank you both, Demitrios for the bayonet and you Sir Mortimer , as collectors and enthusiast, when you see a challenge, you, we love to dive in to find the answer. I work/ live in a truck . No room to keep a library to research.  Would really help if I knew German

You're welcome, Steve. You don't need to apologize, I'm glad I could contribute some information. If you need translations from German to English, jst let me know; I'll help as best as I can.

 

7 hours ago, zuluwar2006 said:

Sir Mortimer, thanj you for the comments.

About your opinion "the lower curve of the letter runs off to the left instead of the right, thus making it a true cursive "T"... ". 

That is correct, so defitely a "T", as Andy said. 

This is my opinion, as Andy's. 

 

 

10 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

About the letter T in cursive i would disagree, this is a letter T certainly so used in manual, but i will look at my manual at home from 1897, the C is different in above part, similar upper part has only T letter, the inspector proofs with T are very similar as here. 

It would be logicaly the BATA is for Armee Telegraphen Abteilung, anyway its a prewar marking not war, as in war were other details added numbers etc.

I'll gladly stand corrected regarding the "mirrorr stamp" theory if your source says so. In addition, I forgot that every producer back then deviated a little bit from the given specifications regarding manufacturing, stamping, etc. Things weren't as uniformly produced/marked as they are today with modern precision tools; I own two 98/05's with a Weimar "1920" stamp, one has the numbers with serifs (giving it that typical 20th century look), the other one a cleaner looking sans-serif font.

10 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Thanks for clearing it about the 3EMGK anyway  the stamp is not complete as is missing the Army Korps, which is probably obvious on war time units. Same as the size of stamp is not under manual.

I found some examples in Christian Mery's "Deutsche Aushilfseitengewehre 1914-1918", p. 94 regarding the Army Corps stamp, both versions are shown there: One example is from the 1st Ersatz Maschinengewehr Kompanie with the Army Corps: 1.E.M.G.K.XIII.AK; the weapon number 753 is stamped on the other side of the guard piece.

On the same page, further down a photo of the 3rd Ersatz Maschinengewehr Kompanie is shown without the "AK" stamp on the back side: 3.E.M.G.K.68, but has an additional stamp on the front with the AK: 3.E.M.G.K.XIII.AK. So this bayonet in particular is saying the same thing twice over, the only minor difference being the weapon number changed for the Army Corps stamp. They probably split the stampings up, simply due to the fact that space is limited and the additional "XIII.AK" wouldn't fit on the flat back side of the guard anymore.

[Steve1871]

Hey Demitrios, you were right on that “T” . On your 98/05   B.A.T.A 1.107

Found that script letter in  Ian Zjscjson’s Kutzes Seitengewehr 1898 Model, page 97. Also show pic of Bayonet and scabbard marked with that type on page 102

Edited 14 August , 2021 by Steve1871

[zuluwar2006]

9 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Hey Demitrios, you were right on that “T” . On your 98/05   B.A.T.A 1.107

Found that script letter in  Ian Zjscjson’s Kutzes Seitengewehr 1898 Model, page 97. Also show pic of Bayonet and scabbard marked with that type on page 102

Steve thank you,

i was pretty sure it was a "T". 

In any case i like the discussions we have on this thread because this is the only way to present our opinions and made the final conclusion. 

I can see you are now well educated my son

Regards

D. 

P. S. Julian, where are you??? 

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare ersatz bayonet with brass handle. 

On crossguard and scabbard same unit marking

30.R.M.G.K.32

A declined unit marking on the scabbard 30.R.M.G.K.67

For 30th Reserve Machinengewehr Kompagnie. 

A very interesting and rare bayonet, belonged to a friend. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

The T were used by various cursive letters so this could be bavarian speciality as here presented by Steve, but was from early moment no possible to interchange with C.

Scarce brass ASG88/98 bayonet, that was used on early period, excellent find, looks like on scabbard was a black paint covered the origin green/grey paint, mostly used by bavarians, the frog is probably bavarian for S98/05, the unit could be too part of 30.Reserve Division.

[Steve1871]

That has a wicked looking point to it☠️

[zuluwar2006]

Here we have an extremely rare ersatz bayonet of the sword belgian bayonet model 1889 (Artillerie de Forteresse et Gendarmerie a pied) for Belgian Fortress Artillery. 

This modification was made to adapt this bayonet on the German Gewehr 88 rifle (EB 94 on Williams book). 

The armourers mooved the crossguard downwards and filled the cut part with a metal insert. 

The work on this speciment is perfect. 

This speciment is even rarer, because is the first time we see an ersatz iron scabbard made for this bayonet, as until today we met this ersatz bayonet with the original belgian scabbard. 

Unfortunately the wodden parts did not survived on the handle. 

Regards

D. 

 

[Steve1871]

I guessing that is not yours, from the photo set. As bright as everything is. Too bad they over cleaned, polished everything up. It is nice to see some age to the pieces, by as you say, it is rare. 
 

The original Belgian 89 fortress artillery bayonet, I keep seeing one or two show up for sale every month or two.  Was it for the more common 89 carbine ( I have carbine) or for some specialized rifle/carbine. I have always wondered about that. The original rifle is rare now. Never found one for sale

[zuluwar2006]

16 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

I guessing that is not yours, from the photo set. As bright as everything is. Too bad they over cleaned, polished everything up. It is nice to see some age to the pieces, by as you say, it is rare. 
 

The original Belgian 89 fortress artillery bayonet, I keep seeing one or two show up for sale every month or two.  Was it for the more common 89 carbine ( I have carbine) or for some specialized rifle/carbine. I have always wondered about that. The original rifle is rare now. Never found one for sale

Dear Steve, 

YES

Both are mine. 

Do you like the photos??? 

New tricks!!!! 😀 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Question is with so bented barell ring its not possible to attach on Gew88 as the ring should be same MRD 17.5mm for both rifles, even by belgian higher positioned, similar long bayonets were mostly used as siderams or by guard units, as the blade is too long, certainly similar bayonets are scarce to find mainly the scabbard, the condition of bayonet handle speaks more for lost grips, not detetoriated, should be measured the locking lenght.

The Kropatschek M86 looks like replaced grips and press button, anyway when DR marked so a nice find. The MRD is 16mm so unreworked for different rifle as is portuguese Krop.

Edited 15 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Perfect match on a gewehr 88 german rifle. 

[Steve1871]

Hey D’

the blades look new & polished. You buy/ trade for them like that. Original one, grips even look new 

The bayonet types themselves look / are impressive.  The modified one is rare indeed.

I just do not know if the original was also for the Belgian 89 carbine, would look great on my carbine

Europe. Most carbines used longer bayonets to match the length of rifle/ bayonet

[zuluwar2006]

Steve

You are refering to the Belgium Gendarmerie and Fortress Artillery M 1889 Mauser carbine Cal. 7.65.  

After the Mauser brothers finished work on the Model 71/84 in 1880, the design team set out to create a small caliber repeater that used smokeless powder.

Because of setbacks brought on by Wilhelm Mauser's death, they failed to have the design completed by 1882, and the German Rifle Test Commission (Gewehr-Prüfungskommission) was formed.The commission preferred to create their own design.

Paul Mauser created two different variations of the same rifle, one with a stock strengthened with a barrel shroud and a traditional design following the layout of the 71 series in hope he might be able to overturn the commission's decision, or at least sell his design to the Kingdom of Bavaria, which adopted its own arms. The two rifles became known as :

1) the 89 Belgian (with a barrel shroud) and

2) the 91 Argentine (with a 71 layout) Mausers, identical in their function and feed system.

A main feature was the introduction of Mausers newly developed at that time high-performance smokeless powder rimless bottlenecked rifle 7.65×53mm Mauser cartridge.

Another new main feature was the ability to load the single-stack detachable box magazine that extended below the bottom of the stock with single 7.65×53mm Mauser rounds by pushing the cartridges into the receiver top opening or via stripper clips. Each stripper clip can hold 5 rounds to fill the magazine and is inserted into clip guides machined into the rear receiver bridge. After loading, the empty clip is ejected when the bolt is closed. This was a significant improvement in practical rate of fire.

As a result of opening up the receiver top for quick stripper clip reloading, Mauser chose to move the locking lugs to the front of the bolt and lock them in the receiver ring to promote mechanical strength. The forward receiver ring diameter were the two forward locking lugs achieved lockup is 33 millimetres (1.30 in).

The particular speciment has excellent very long straight bright finished fullered blade with Belgian inspection marking; crown over JA on the ricasso. Excellent bright metal pommel with inspection marking on press catch. Excellent crossguard unit marked O in a circle   and forward swept quillon with final and muzzle ring MRD 17,3 mm. This is the rarest and most beautiful bayonet of the Belgium M 1889 Mauser bayonet series.

[Steve1871]

Yes, I have Arg. 91 rifles, even a pre-production ( original rear site). On Belgian, just have a U.S.  Hopkins & Allen made standard carbine and bayonet, same maker

that fortress carbine is just one more I do not have, sadly

[zuluwar2006]

On 11/08/2021 at 18:41, zuluwar2006 said:

An extremely rare 98)05 nA bayonet plain with flash guard with rare unit marking on cross guard with steel scabbard

Date is 1916.

Third Ersatz Machinengewehr Kompanie, number of weapon 812

3.E.M.G.K.812

A very rare unit marked war time bayonet.

Without any manufacturer which is very rare. 

Regards, D. 

I have another one 98/05 bayonet, unit marked from the same ersatz mgk, with number of weapon 672.

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Steve is right there the bayonet was made for Fortress Artillery Carbine M1889 which lenght was only 94cm plus 515 mm blade they got similar lenght as long rifle 127cm with 25cm short bayonet, about 1,5m full lenght.

Edited 16 August , 2021 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

33 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Steve is right there the bayonet was made for Fortress Artillery Carbine M1889 which lenght was only 94cm plus 515 mm blade they got similar lenght as long rifle 127cm with 25cm short bayonet, about 1,5m full lenght.

Andy yes, that is also my point of view, as described prior about the m 1889 carbine for the original belgian bayonet. 

The ersatz convertion is very rare for the Gew 88 german rifle, even rarer, unique, is the ersatz steel scabbard (identical in appearence to the steel scabbard for quillback bayonet 1898), never described before. 

From photos you can see the perfect match of the ersatz bayonet to the Gew 88.

Nevertheless, a very rare ersatz with unique ersatz steel scabbard. 

I will post more detailed photos. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

The area of grip and crossguard would be interesting to see, as the locking lenght of M89 is identical with G88 for 100mm probably , but the position of barell ring was different, personally dont believe the germans made new crossguard with hook, only changed the crosspiece probably, normally it should have serialing on crossguard, here painted black. This is probably not corect designation as EB more real reworked captured bayonets to G88. there exist photos of similar bayonets used by Guards of Landsturm. From picture of Merys book? there is a dovetail shortening of barell ring area.

Edited 16 August , 2021 by AndyBsk