BBC2 'The Somme 1916: From Both Sides of the Wire'

[Jack Sheldon]

Apart from when machine gun barrages were being fired, one of the key factors in siting machine guns - and I speak as one who used to do it for a living - was the range at which the fall of shot could be observed. Modern tracer rounds, which are great aids to accuracy, burn out at 1100 metres but, given good visibility and a well trained crew and a gun commander with a good pair of binoculars, it is possible to achieve reasonable results out to about 1,800 metres. Beyond that it is (literally) hit and miss and in any case the cone of fire becomes so dispersed as to lose a lot of the effect unless your sole aim is to turn live rounds into empty cases.

 

Jack

[sjustice]

"My general opinion in simplistic terms is that the German Army was more effective in combat than its adversaries but that the gap narrowed over the course of the war..."

 

From @SteveMarsdin (I dunno why quote is quoting random things...)

 

My general opinion is that, after spring 1915, the German Army was more effective in defensive combat than its adversaries but that the gap narrowed over the course of the war when opponents had the chance to practice. I don't think it's too wild a claim to say that, over the same period, the German army was the more hopeless at offensive combat when opposition amounted to more than a belt of wire on a clear summer day. For the same reason.

 

Cheers,

SMJ

[Jack Sheldon]

Hmm SMJ. Ask those who faced the Cambrai counter-offensive.

 

Jack

[sjustice]

Hi Jack,

 

I did say 'more' hopeless and 'clear summer day'.

 

Cheers,

SMJ

[Gunner Bailey]

32 minutes ago, SteveMarsdin said:

In this counterfactual you'd also have to factor in whether the British would have bothered constructing such fortified lines as the Germans did (even if they had the technology and expertise), given that they and the French were trying to drive the Germans from the occupied territory.

 

My general opinion in simplistic terms is that the German Army was more effective in combat than its adversaries but that the gap narrowed over the course of the war culminating in the 100 days offensive. This superiority was enhanced by the fact that from the onset of static warfare (excepting Verdun) the German were on the defensive until 1918. They chose favourable defensive positions, improving the natural topography with superior fortifications both above but particularly below ground.

 

In my mind that is the greatest tribute to the Tommy and Poulu; that they continued the battle against a superior foe, at enormous cost, until the tide turned. 

 

Steve

I would not disagree with that. A well balance view.

 

John

[Gunner Bailey]

I might add that when the 'bite and hold' tactics were adopted by the allies from 1917, the Germans were shown to weaker in attack (counter) than in defence, suffering some pretty horrendous casualty numbers.

 

John

[Jack Sheldon]

OK. Well how about the Aisne to the Marne in four days 27 May - 1 June 1918. Up to a fifty kilometre advance on a thirty kilometre frontage?

 

Jack

 

 

[sjustice]

Hey again Jack,

 

I repeat, I said 'more' hopeless. In that instance I don't see why they shouldn't have gone seventy-five kilometres - even if the vanguard was a few guys without rifles lobbing grenades and running (fast) into captivity. Facetiousness aside though, the strategic gain was zero and the outcome was a final godsend to the Allies in a final haemorrhage of experience - defensive or offensive.

 

Cheers.

SMJ

[EastSurrey]

Regarding use of captured documents, I have a modern IWM copy of the lengthy and detailed  'Experiences of the IV German Corps in the Battle of the Somme during July 1916'. The original was  dated 22.8.16 and marked 'Secret' by IV Corps H.Q. 

It was obtained,  translated and issued by British General Staff (Intelligence) General Headquarters as early as 30.9.1916!

Michael

[phil andrade]

40 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I might add that when the 'bite and hold' tactics were adopted by the allies from 1917, the Germans were shown to weaker in attack (counter) than in defence, suffering some pretty horrendous casualty numbers.

 

John

 

Especially against the French, who inflicted such great damage at relatively low cost to themselves at Verdun in the summer of 1917, and even more so at Malmaison in the autumn.

 

As they had on the Somme in 1916, the French outperformed the British - even in their notorious Nivelle Offensive, they managed to inflict more damage,  absolutely and proportionately , than the British, despite the successes of Arras and Vimy.

 

I would love to see Peter Barton and Jeremy's assessment  of 1917 battles screened next year, if there is a chance of the powers that be allowing some centennial stuff to be on parade on the BBC.

 

Phil

 

 

[paulgranger]

Call me a cynic, but the only references about 1917 that I expect from the BBC next year will be to the 'mud and misery' of Passchendaele if anything.  

[Jack Sheldon]

1 hour ago, EastSurrey said:

Regarding use of captured documents, I have a modern IWM copy of the lengthy and detailed  'Experiences of the IV German Corps in the Battle of the Somme during July 1916'. The original was  dated 22.8.16 and marked 'Secret' by IV Corps H.Q. 

It was obtained,  translated and issued by British General Staff (Intelligence) General Headquarters as early as 30.9.1916!

Michael

Its loss certainly upset the Germans when they got to hear about it. Ludendorff sent a very snotty note down the chain of command demanding an investigation. This produced a fairly defensive reply from First Army. Both these documents are in the Munich archives. The problem was that it was distributed on a very wide scale to assist preparation and training for tours on the Somme and some twit disobeyed orders about not taking it into the front line. In practical terms the only thing which could be done was to reiterate the ban on taking classified material forward.

 

Jack

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, Jack Sheldon said:

Its loss certainly upset the Germans when they got to hear about it. Ludendorff sent a very snotty note down the chain of command demanding an investigation. This produced a fairly defensive reply from First Army. Both these documents are in the Munich archives. The problem was that it was distributed on a very wide scale to assist preparation and training for tours on the Somme and some twit disobeyed orders about not taking it into the front line. In practical terms the only thing which could be done was to reiterate the ban on taking classified material forward.

 

Jack

Hi

Judging from the captured German documents in the UK National Archives from after this date Ludendorff wasn't very successful, but that applied to all higher HQs of the various nations.  There is always someone who will take classified documents into the front line as its 'convenient' for them to do so.

 

Mike

[Gunner Bailey]

I think Arras 1917 is the most ignored part of the Great War. Just go an see the German cemetery at Neuville St Vaast. 44,000 burials - totally staggering.

 

John

3 hours ago, paulgranger said:

Call me a cynic, but the only references about 1917 that I expect from the BBC next year will be to the 'mud and misery' of Passchendaele if anything.  

 

Probably right. Not the cynic bit, but your prediction.

 

John

[ianw]

I enjoyed all 3 programmes as they looked splendid in HD but did get a feeling of "Peter B in another field"  "Muddy field this time" etc . Would it be possible  to put a sub-title on to confirm exactly where the location being strode across is?

 

I do feel that drone shots are rather over-used nowadays but I wouldn't dispute that they do add a certain something as the view opens up as the drone rises . Quite cheap too. I have a family member that uses one to great effect and produces some great footage.

 

Also , I know that the shows are for the general viewers and not us anoraks but could they not use a freeze frame technique to allow anyone looking for more detailed information meat to stop the action and read extra info?  I suppose it would all add cost though.

 

But thanks to all concerned for their great efforts even if much good stuff never got to screen - and many will no doubt look forward with whetted appetite to the book for the full gen.

[Gunner Bailey]

8 hours ago, Jack Sheldon said:

Apart from when machine gun barrages were being fired, one of the key factors in siting machine guns - and I speak as one who used to do it for a living - was the range at which the fall of shot could be observed. Modern tracer rounds, which are great aids to accuracy, burn out at 1100 metres but, given good visibility and a well trained crew and a gun commander with a good pair of binoculars, it is possible to achieve reasonable results out to about 1,800 metres. Beyond that it is (literally) hit and miss and in any case the cone of fire becomes so dispersed as to lose a lot of the effect unless your sole aim is to turn live rounds into empty cases.

 

Jack

 

I've got a 1901 .303 Magazine Lee Enfield and the volley sight on the side is ranged out to 2800 yards. Impressive yardage but accuracy would be hopeless. So the .303 cartridge can get out to great distances but I don't know if the Vickers MG would have matched that range.

 

John

[johnboy]

Never being able to visit the battlefields I found the programs interesting.

I wish that some trench maps could have been overlayed on some of the views. Being told that the British/ Germans advanced ' just over there' by the presenter  and 'over that ridge' was hard to fully understand.

[Andrew Upton]

5 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

I've got a 1901 .303 Magazine Lee Enfield and the volley sight on the side is ranged out to 2800 yards. Impressive yardage but accuracy would be hopeless. So the .303 cartridge can get out to great distances but I don't know if the Vickers MG would have matched that range.

 

 

With the MkVII round, matched and beaten - the standard Vickers slide went up to 2900 yards. By WW2 for the MkVIIIz this was up to 3700 yards, with the dial site attached even further still.

[Gunner Bailey]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

With the MkVII round, matched and beaten - the standard Vickers slide went up to 2900 yards. By WW2 for the MkVIIIz this was up to 3700 yards, with the dial site attached even further still.

 

Impressive!

[horrocks]

On 05/08/2016 at 11:43, Jack Sheldon said:

...one of the key factors in siting machine guns - and I speak as one who used to do it for a living....

Jack

 

A mere aside - I wish to take nothing away from your interesting and informative post, but couldn't help but notice a rich irony in the choice of words..

[Chris_Baker]

William Philpott comes to a somewhat different conclusion to that proposed in the TV series: "... Moreover, the reverence of that opening day and for its victims obscures the real story of the Somme offensive, which may have begun terribly, but ended eight months later in weary triumph when the German army ceded the field rather than face another such battle. Some might argue that the human sacrifice, some 1.2 million men of all armies, renders such outcomes irrelevant. At the time, however, everyone was aware that the Somme had turned the course of the war, and that its result was decided. ..."

From http://beyondthetrenches.co.uk/first-world-war-centenaries-are-we-commemorating-things-the-right-way/

[Ancre1917]

What an interesting and informative site. Prof. Philpott's conclusions hit the mark for me and I look forward to reading new material on the French army's successes in the future. Does anyone know when we can expect an in-depth look at the French on the Somme?

Richard

[paulgranger]

I think Bmac of this forum, having already covered 46 and 56 Divs, and VIII Corps on the first day, will be looking at the opening French effort in a forthcoming volume, though whether he will look beyond July 1 I don't know.

[Ancre1917]

I've read his book on 46th division. Anything he writes on the French should be very well researched, if this book is anything to go by. Do you have any idea when he intends to publish it?

Richard

[paulgranger]

No, I am afraid not, but I think it will be next year.