BBC2 'The Somme 1916: From Both Sides of the Wire'

[SiegeGunner]

2 hours ago, phil andrade said:

The implications of eighty thousand or so prisoners being yielded to the Entente were serious as regards the condition of German morale.

 

Undoubtedly a grievous loss of fighting men, Phil, but at what level do you have evidence of any impact on German morale (at home, at the front)?

[johnboy]

Is it known how many prisoners were wounded men? Any that were would have been a loss anyway.

[phil andrade]

1 hour ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

Undoubtedly a grievous loss of fighting men, Phil, but at what level do you have evidence of any impact on German morale (at home, at the front)?

 

Failure of the German War Loan for the first time suggests that Home Front enthusiasm was on the wane.

 

The very fact that so many prisoners were taken is , in itself, testimony to declining morale in the front line.

 

Ludendorff remarked on the men not showing the firmness that he had hoped for, and he cited the steady yield of prisoners as a significant feature of the battle.

 

I've fired from the hip here, Mick....not checking sources, but relying on memory.

 

Phil

[phil andrade]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

Is it known how many prisoners were wounded men? Any that were would have been a loss anyway.

 

 

That's a good question, johnboy , I've wondered about this myself.

 

My supposition is that they were unwounded, or so lightly wounded as to be effectively capable of fighting.

 

At least, I'm convinced that British claims of prisoners captured were predicated on them being unwounded.

 

I don't have hard and fast proof of this, and would welcome help from forumites who might know better.

 

Phil

[Medaler]

1 hour ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

Undoubtedly a grievous loss of fighting men, Phil, but at what level do you have evidence of any impact on German morale (at home, at the front)?

 

Perhaps not quite the same thing, but the Germans had had a bad year all round in 1916. Harried on the Somme, denied their objective at Verdun, and made to flee from Jutland. I would put forward one measure of morale as the number of German offensives conducted in 1917, when compared to the number conducted by the Allies.

[AOK4]

34 minutes ago, Medaler said:

 

Perhaps not quite the same thing, but the Germans had had a bad year all round in 1916. Harried on the Somme, denied their objective at Verdun, and made to flee from Jutland. I would put forward one measure of morale as the number of German offensives conducted in 1917, when compared to the number conducted by the Allies.

 

I don't know exactly what you mean with this suggestion?

 

Anyway, three enemies out of the war because of the German offensives in 1917: Rumania, Italy and Russia... I would say 1917 ended as a great year for the German Army (not as much on the Western Front, partly because they were focussing heavily on the other fronts so that they could focus on the Western Front in 1918).

 

This is all quite far away from an assessment of the Somme offensive.

 

Jan

 

[MikeMeech]

Hi

I have now caught up with episode 3.  it was interesting to hear how the Germans had captured various British documents that should not have been in the front line and how they were used.  However, this was not only a British problem as the Germans also left 'Secret' documents in their front line that were marked 'Not to be taken into Front Line Trenches' many to be found at Kew.

Documents I have used in my own research include the 'Manual of Position Warfare for All Arms Part 6 - Communication between Infantry and Aeroplanes or Captive Balloon' dated as issued by the Germans on 1st January, 1917 and captured, translated and issued by BEF GHQ on 25 May, 1917 as SS 563.  This document's replacement 'The Infantry Aeroplane and the Infantry Balloon' issued 1st September, 1917 was in turn published as SS 619 on 7th December, 1917.  In-between these two documents an amendment to the signal procedures of 31st July, 1917 was also captured and translated as was a 3rd Bavarian Infantry Division instructions for signals that appear to have been an experiment, dated 2nd July, 1917.

On the Air/Artillery co-operation side there are other captured documents including 'The Observation of Fire by means of Aeroplanes fitted with Wireless Apparatus' issued by the 1st Bavarian Fleigerabteilung  dated 15th November, 1915, was distributed by the British by 11 July, 1916.  The 'Manual of Position Warfare Part 5 - The Employment and Duties of Artillery Aeroplanes in Position Warfare' dated 10th February, 1917, was published as SS 560 on 16th May, 1917.  Its replacement 'The Artillery Aeroplane and the Artillery Balloon' dated 10th January, 1918, was also published as SS 649 during May 1918. This all kept the British and the other allies up to date with German procedures not long after the Germans were updated themselves.

The main problem for all armies (in all conflicts) is that many personnel have an attitude that 'security' doesn't really matter and rules need not be obeyed if it is felt it is 'inconvenient', but of course it does matter as the programme showed, but it was not just a British problem.

 

Mike  

[Medaler]

51 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

 

I don't know exactly what you mean with this suggestion?

 

Anyway, three enemies out of the war because of the German offensives in 1917: Rumania, Italy and Russia... I would say 1917 ended as a great year for the German Army (not as much on the Western Front, partly because they were focussing heavily on the other fronts so that they could focus on the Western Front in 1918).

 

This is all quite far away from an assessment of the Somme offensive.

 

Jan

 

 

No, not at all far away from an assessment of the Somme offensive. You can only make a judgement on the Somme by looking at what followed, and its importance has to be considered in the context of the war as a whole. How the battle affected the outcome of the war is what is important, together with trying to understand the possible differences to the outcome if it had not been fought at all.

[Steven Broomfield]

3 hours ago, johnboy said:

Is it known how many prisoners were wounded men? Any that were would have been a loss anyway.

 

No: a lightly wounded man would be patched up and returned. If he were captured, wounded or not, he's a total write-off.

[SiegeGunner]

A man taken prisoner in a seriously wounded state (but destined to survive) is not quite a total loss because he consumes some of the enemy's resources even after his capture.

[SiegeGunner]

Grateful to Mike Meech for the examples he cites, but I'm afraid that publication by BEF GHQ of 'SS' documents many months after the capture of the original German document does not begin to rival German distribution at divisional/battalion level of translations of captured British documents within a matter of days.

[Bart150]

51 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

 

it was interesting to hear how the Germans had captured various British documents that should not have been in the front line and how they were used.

 

Correct me if I wrong, I can't replay the programme, but I don't recall the presenter saying HOW the captured British documents were used by the Germans.

 

Of course, it's very satisfying for the researcher to find in the German archives some captured top-secret British document, and one understands that he wants to tell the world about his splendid discovery.

 

But he needs to show how that document affected the way the Germans behaved: organising their defences differently, for example. If he doesn't do that, then he is guilty of telling the viewer something which is irrelevant to an understanding of the battle, and which therefore would have been better omitted, proud though he might be of his find. 

 

 

[Gardenerbill]

Just finished watching this brilliant series on the Iplayer, I have also just read Gary Sheffields book on the Somme. Sheffield maintains that the British army learnt a great deal from the Somme campaign, what I liked about the television series is that it gave you the German perspective and demonstrated that they also learnt invaluable lessons as a result that would affect the war over the next two years.

[MikeMeech]

41 minutes ago, SiegeGunner said:

Grateful to Mike Meech for the examples he cites, but I'm afraid that publication by BEF GHQ of 'SS' documents many months after the capture of the original German document does not begin to rival German distribution at divisional/battalion level of translations of captured British documents within a matter of days.

Hi

It doesn't mean they were not 'used' before they were put on general issue in the SS document system, if they were of immediate tactical use then those that needed the information would probably get it. For example (although 1918) Major Leigh-Mallory OC 8 Sqn. mentions in his post war report on Air/Tank co-operation that:

"On September 2nd a most valuable document was captured, which gave us the German scheme of allotting his guns for anti-tank work, and the kinds of positions they would take up.  This gave us a great deal of valuable information, and greatly increased the use we could make of the existing Counter Battery Maps, which of course only lasted while we were fighting to break down the Trench System."

The information found was used immediately, the information then being sent up the chain of command.

Also Jim Beach in 'Haig's Intelligence' mentions (page 111) that:

"Priority was given to the examination of official documents because these had greater potential to reveal military information, sometimes of immediate importance."

Information of immediate importance would be used by the capturing formation the information would then be sent to GHQ to form part of the 'bigger picture'.  The Germans may or may not have been more 'efficient' during 1916, but the British did do it.

 

Mike

[phil andrade]

3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

I don't know exactly what you mean with this suggestion?

 

Anyway, three enemies out of the war because of the German offensives in 1917: Rumania, Italy and Russia... I would say 1917 ended as a great year for the German Army (not as much on the Western Front, partly because they were focussing heavily on the other fronts so that they could focus on the Western Front in 1918).

 

This is all quite far away from an assessment of the Somme offensive.

 

Jan

 

 

By Jove, you've got that right, Sir !

 

Phil

[Chris_Baker]

I think there may have been more to Russia pulling out of the war than the actions of the German Armies. And don't recall Italy pulling out of the war in 1917, either. I accept your general point, Jan (AOK4) but that is slightly, to use a phrase, "over the top".

[Gunner Bailey]

On 27/07/2016 at 19:19, phil andrade said:

 

That question occurs to me, too.

 

I reckon the programme does emphasise the Germans' qualitative edge.

 

As to whether this was something innate, or something born of compulsion - the Germans, we are reminded, were outnumbered and outgunned , and were forced into husbanding their manpower - is a question that the programme requires us to countenance.

 

Phil

 

I wonder what would have happened if the British had the high ground and the Germans had to attack uphill all the time? Don't forget that early in the war and in 1918 the

Germans had superior numbers to the British and French armies.

 

Remember that at Mons and Langemark the Germans walked into machine gun fire in exactly the same way. Not that clever.

 

Yes, the Germans are great soldiers (or were). However the British also continually learned lessons and by 1918 were the best organised Army in Europe.

 

John

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

I wonder what would have happened if the British had the high ground and the Germans had to attack uphill all the time? Don't forget that early in the war and in 1918 the

Germans had superior numbers to the British and French armies.

 

Remember that at Mons and Langemark the Germans walked into machine gun fire in exactly the same way. Not that clever.

 

Yes, the Germans are great soldiers (or were). However the British also continually learned lessons and by 1918 were the best organised Army in Europe.

 

John

 

Agree with all that John, except " if the British had the high ground and the Germans had to attack uphill all the time? " they didn't, and, from the Aisne onwards chose to defend the higher ground mostly?

 

Mike

[David Filsell]

A number of German personal accounts (and fact based novels) indicate that the falling away of morale grew considerably when soldiers from the Eastern Front were sent to the Western where conditions were somewhat worse. Political certainly agitation from within the ranks began to grow. After the spring offensives, accounts also grow of the amazement with which soldiers fell upon the British store - rations, clothing and boots - having been led to believe conditions one the other side were worse than their own. There are accounts of soldiers drinking themselves into inability to accept orders. Letters from home also had an effect on those in the line as conditions and shortages  in the heimat worsened - there are accounts of food being sent back to Germany by men in the line.

[MikeMeech]

12 hours ago, Bart150 said:

 

Correct me if I wrong, I can't replay the programme, but I don't recall the presenter saying HOW the captured British documents were used by the Germans.

 

Of course, it's very satisfying for the researcher to find in the German archives some captured top-secret British document, and one understands that he wants to tell the world about his splendid discovery.

 

But he needs to show how that document affected the way the Germans behaved: organising their defences differently, for example. If he doesn't do that, then he is guilty of telling the viewer something which is irrelevant to an understanding of the battle, and which therefore would have been better omitted, proud though he might be of his find. 

 

 

Hi

 

About 18-19 minutes into the programme, mentions the capture of docs and with details of British 'Creeping Barrage' to counter Germans moved machine-guns out of range, the firing from up to 3 miles away is then mentioned.

 

Mike

[Knotty]

Forum Pals,with weapons knowledge, I refer to my previous post, can you tell me what German machine gun had a range over 5000 yards, I am struggling to find anything.

 

Thanks John

[paulgranger]

Wikipedia tells me that the MG08 had an effective range of 2000 metres, and a maximum range of 3500 metres, so  a mile/mile and a half, not 3 miles

[Knotty]

Hi Paul

Thats the figures I was coming up with,so I am now struggling a bit with the reference from PB as to what moving the mg's back 3 miles implied if they were out of there "killing" range.

[SteveMarsdin]

2 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

I wonder what would have happened if the British had the high ground and the Germans had to attack uphill all the time?

John

In this counterfactual you'd also have to factor in whether the British would have bothered constructing such fortified lines as the Germans did (even if they had the technology and expertise), given that they and the French were trying to drive the Germans from the occupied territory.

 

My general opinion in simplistic terms is that the German Army was more effective in combat than its adversaries but that the gap narrowed over the course of the war culminating in the 100 days offensive. This superiority was enhanced by the fact that from the onset of static warfare (excepting Verdun) the German were on the defensive until 1918. They chose favourable defensive positions, improving the natural topography with superior fortifications both above but particularly below ground.

 

In my mind that is the greatest tribute to the Tommy and Poulu; that they continued the battle against a superior foe, at enormous cost, until the tide turned. 

 

Steve

[Steven Broomfield]

3 minutes ago, Knotty said:

Hi Paul

Thats the figures I was coming up with,so I am now struggling a bit with the reference from PB as to what moving the mg's back 3 miles implied if they were out of there "killing" range.

 

It has been commented that the Germans held the high ground, so is it possible that the bullets went further going downhill?