Postcards

[weshallremember]

yes very lucky 

must have been hard for him to survive 

when 4 of his brothers died

trevor

[6RRF]

Might have influenced his transfer to the RDC. The newspaper clipping mentioned a letter from the Palace.

[weshallremember]

McKimmie 6713

He certainly appears reported wounded in the Daily Lists published 

3/6/16 and 30/8/17. 

I've not checked 1918...

His Silver War Badge says discharged for wounds rather than sickness.

so it looks like after his first wounding he was put in the 3rd  reserve regiment

 then went absent 

got fit for service

returned to france

wounded again but not so bad

the 3rd time he was wounded is believed to be by a grenade

discharged dec 1918 due to wounds

then jointed RDC with the 3 wound stripes

trevor

 

[CorporalPunishment]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think I have the solution. He served with the A&SH in multiple battalions and was wounded several times, which I think might well have affected his suitability for continued front line service.  I think that the photo with cap and 3-wound stripes shows him wearing cap and shoulder strap insignia of the Royal Defence Corps, a home service unit for men who were older or medically downgraded.  Badges were initially the Royal Cypher but according to the National Army Museum changed to the circular design below from 1918.

NB.  There is conflicting information about the precise sequence of the insignia used and some other sources suggest the badge was used for a reformed RDC in 1934.  Personally I am of the view that rather like the Pioneer Corps reuse of Labour Corps insignia in WW2, old WW1 RDC badges from 1918 were probably resurrected from storage when the RDC was re-raised.

 

Whatever else his cap badge may be it is not the RDC "Manhole Cover". His badge is far too small for that. It's too blurred to tell for certain but might possibly be AVC.    Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Whatever else his cap badge may be it is not the RDC "Manhole Cover". His badge is far too small for that. It's too blurred to tell for certain but might possibly be AVC.    Pete.

I’ve always thought the circular version of the RDF badge was quite small Pete, albeit recognisably bigger than a GS button, but I’m open minded to see further evidence.  One problem is I’ve found it difficult to find another photo of the badge definitely in use to make a comparison.

Part of the problem with that badge is that although the RDC was formed in 1916, for that first year regimental badges were worn, and then in 1917 the Royal cypher badge was adopted.  The circular badge was eventually issued in 1918, so it was in use a comparatively short time and inevitably there seem to be few images of it in use.  The badge was designed so that it could also be used as collar insignia and so appears with sliders and circular loops and cotter pins, plus also in bronze for officers.  It was, literally, one size fits all. 

Personally I think the badge in the photo appears too small and without any obvious crown to match with AVC, but confess I only have a phone screen to compare.  It’s also worth bearing in mind that while a transfer to the AVC isn’t impossible, it’s far less likely than the RDC for a man wounded 3-times and presumably unfit for front line service (else he’d have returned to the infantry).

Edited 4 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

46 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve always thought the circular version of the RDF badge was quite small Pete, albeit recognisably bigger than a GS button, but I’m open minded to see further evidence.  One problem is I’ve found it difficult to find another photo of the badge definitely in use to make a comparison.

Part of the problem with that badge is that although the RDC was formed in 1916, for that first year regimental badges were worn, and then in 1917 the Royal cypher badge was adopted.  The circular badge was eventually issued in 1918, so it was in use a comparatively short time and inevitably there seem to be few images of it in use.  The badge was designed so that it could also be used as collar insignia and so appears with sliders and circular loops and cotter pins, plus also in bronze for officers.  It was, literally, one size fits all. 

Personally I think the badge in the photo appears too small and without any obvious crown to match with AVC, but confess I only have a phone screen to compare.  It’s also worth bearing in mind that while a transfer to the AVC isn’t impossible, it’s far less likely than the RDC for a man wounded 3-times and presumably unfit for front line service (else he’d have returned to the infantry).

Frogsmile, trust me, the cap badge he is wearing is not the circular RDC badge. As for there being a collar badge the same size as the cap badge, I think it's far too large for that.    Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, trust me, the cap badge he is wearing is not the circular RDC badge. As for there being a collar badge the same size as the cap badge, I think it's far too large for that.    Pete.

I don’t think it’s definitively proven one way, or the other Pete.  It would be helpful to see the RDC badge alongside a GS button to get an idea of proportion.  It doesn’t help that his record hasn’t survived in order to see exactly where he went after the A&SH.  I guess we’ll never know that now. 

Edited 4 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The two McKimmie brothers, Thomas and Edward appear on the 1919 AVL for Dundee with the following details (It doesn't state if it's Spring or Autumn. Not that I have any earlier lists to compare with but it is quite big-about 2300 names just for the M surnames. I think it's Spring 1919 on that basis. It would have been compiled in the Winter months and Spring , with the date for its introduction around May-June 1919. It isn't unusual for soldiers to have old data entered. It could have proved affiliation to the RDC or AVC, sadly it doesn't.):

Surname Prenames No. Street Number Rank Service Service Sort Residence Serial No on List Ward

McKimmie Thomas    42 Hospital Wynd     6713 Pte A&SH ASH                              10587   7
McKimmie Edward     98 Hospital Wynd      305039 L/Cpl 1/3rd HFA RAMC RAMC    10597  7

Edited 5 January , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Ron da Valli]

Some more information here:

Thomas McKimmie :: Great War Dundee - This is Dundee's story of those that served in the First World War, and of the people left at home

 

 

[weshallremember]

thanks got these details

in the paper clipping

note.   images 7 and 8 are listed wrong 

james is 7

david is 8

trevor

[6RRF]

Its obviously not a great set of photies, but there are some interesting features.

No.2 Thomas McKimmie [previously discussed] is clearly wearing an Argylls' glengarry, easily identified by the Sutherland dicing

No.1 William McKimmie and No.3 Stewart Stark, both appear to be Black Watch with plain dark blue glengarries and largish badge. What's also interesting is that they both appear to be be wearing white jackets with stand-up collars, indicating pre-war regular service

No.5 Edward McKimmie is in khaki but no indication of unit

No.6 George McKimmie appears to be in blues, again with a stand-up collar

No.7 James McKimmie [?] has a white jacket with a stand-up collar, again suggesting pre-war regular service

No.8 David McKimmie [?] is in khaki, with a service cap and a smallish round badge - I'd be very inclined to suspect ASC

Edited 5 January , 2023 by 6RRF

[Pat Atkins]

"No.1 William McKimmie and No.3 Stewart Stark, both appear to be Black Watch with plain dark blue glengarries and largish badge. What's also interesting is that they both appear to be be wearing white jackets with stand-up collars, indicating pre-war regular service."

772 Pte William McKimmie/MacKimmie, Black Watch (BW&VM roll records service with 2nd and 1st Bns) arrived in France 12/11/1914 and was KIA 09/05/1915. SDGW says he was 1st Bn; CWGC confirms him as a son of Mrs Catherine McKimmie of 130 Alexander St, Dundee.

[themonsstar]

7 Senior NCO of the Egyptian Labour Corps. 

Section B2, 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

362106 Sgt Frederick George Sawyer. He joined up at the start of WW1 to the 16th (reserve) Bn County of London Regt ( the Queen's Westminster Rifles) number 3520, then 551055, this was a territorial force regiment. 22/6/1916 he posted across to France, and was wounded 17/10/1916. Then to Salonika 18/11/1916. He was then posted to Egypt and The Egyptian labour Corps, 801 Company ELC , his number was from a batch of numbers issued out in September 1917. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force. 

358460 Sgt Frederick Coombe, joined the Devonshire Regt ( number 2368) 1914, and was posted to Egypt 15/9/1915. At some point he was transferred to the Egyptian labour Corps and issued the number 358460 this was from a batch of numbers issued from September 1917 in Egypt. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

360650 Sgt Eric Lydford. Davis, was a Pre-War Regular soldier joining up with the Somerset Light Infantry 5/5/1913,  number 1887. His Labour Corps number was issued in Egypt September 1917. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force 

360794 Sgt Frank Askew Boucher, joined up 1/9/1914 to 3rd City of London Regt. 5/9/1914 he was posted to Malta arriving at Valetta 14/9/1914 until 12/9/1916 when he was back in the UK. 21/12/1916 he arrived in Egypt for service with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. He was posted to 800 Company ELC, attached to 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force. 

I'm still trying to decipher some of the names on the back of the postcard. If you can help thank you.

[themonsstar]

Lt/Captain Cyril Francis Reading. Deputy Military Governor of Jaffa, Palestine 1918.

He was an Officer in the Egyptian labour Corps and part of the 3rd Echelon General Headquarters.

He served in Gallipoli, Egypt and Palestine in the First World War.

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, themonsstar said:

7 Senior NCO of the Egyptian Labour Corps. 

Section B2, 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

362106 Sgt Frederick George Sawyer. He joined up at the start of WW1 to the 16th (reserve) Bn County of London Regt ( the Queen's Westminster Rifles) number 3520, then 551055, this was a territorial force regiment. 22/6/1916 he posted across to France, and was wounded 17/10/1916. Then to Salonika 18/11/1916. He was then posted to Egypt and The Egyptian labour Corps, 801 Company ELC , his number was from a batch of numbers issued out in September 1917. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force. 

358460 Sgt Frederick Coombe, joined the Devonshire Regt ( number 2368) 1914, and was posted to Egypt 15/9/1915. At some point he was transferred to the Egyptian labour Corps and issued the number 358460 this was from a batch of numbers issued from September 1917 in Egypt. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

360650 Sgt Eric Lydford. Davis, was a Pre-War Regular soldier joining up with the Somerset Light Infantry 5/5/1913,  number 1887. His Labour Corps number was issued in Egypt September 1917. He was attached to the 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force 

360794 Sgt Frank Askew Boucher, joined up 1/9/1914 to 3rd City of London Regt. 5/9/1914 he was posted to Malta arriving at Valetta 14/9/1914 until 12/9/1916 when he was back in the UK. 21/12/1916 he arrived in Egypt for service with the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. He was posted to 800 Company ELC, attached to 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force. 

I'm still trying to decipher some of the names on the back of the postcard. If you can help thank you.

An unusual photo in the sense that SNCOs from a rear area function are not so often seen.  Interestingly they retain their original regimental appointments and so are attached rather than transferred, as was more commonly the case for their equivalents with the Labour Corps in France.

23 minutes ago, themonsstar said:

Lt/Captain Cyril Francis Reading. Deputy Military Governor of Jaffa, Palestine 1918.

He was an Officer in the Egyptian labour Corps and part of the 3rd Echelon General Headquarters.

He served in Gallipoli, Egypt and Palestine in the First World War.

His gorget tabs indicate he was employed as a staff officer, directing Labour from the headquarters, rather than employed at unit level.

Edited 7 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[themonsstar]

I'm confused by your comment reference the four Sgts being attached rather then transferred. All are Labour Corps SNCOs attached to 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

 

[GWF1967]

Wilfred Robert Carter. 2311. 4th Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment. Taken at Northampton. 6th Feb.1915.

"Served in France + Belgium with 2nd 6th Durham Light Infantry" Pte. 351484.

 

[GWF1967]

Driver/Saddler. Albert Victor Etches. T4/185339. Army Service Corps.

No.2Depot, Woolwich. 1916 

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, themonsstar said:

7 Senior NCO of the Egyptian Labour Corps...

 

Nice to see such a clear shot on the Sergeant seated viewers right wearing a "Simplified" SD jacket in use at least as late as 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, themonsstar said:

I'm confused by your comment reference the four Sgts being attached rather then transferred. All are Labour Corps SNCOs attached to 3rd Echelon GHQ Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

 

I just spotted those with black rifles buttons (unless they are leather - they don’t look it?), which made me think they must still be dressed regimentally.  It looks as if the perhaps the Egyptian Labour Corps had British SNCOs on attachment rather like some Indian Army units had British staff sergeants.  If they were badged Labour Corps they should have brass GS buttons.  Apparently the same thing occurred in POW (German) companies.  It’s made me wonder if they were men with temporary medical downgrading, but who were categorised likely to recover.  If the buttons are simply leather then my thoughts are a red herring.

Edited 7 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, themonsstar said:

still trying to decipher some of the names

This is AL Cotgreave, alias Cot. 

 Alfred L Cotgreave

Service numbers 154, 360792

Rank Sergeant,

Royal Sussex Regiment, then Labour Corps

[themonsstar]

Charlie 

Thank you for the information 😁

 

 

 

[charlie962]

34 minutes ago, themonsstar said:

for the information

Last image courtesy Findmypast service records. 

Charlie 

Edit. His signature in that service record. 

 

Previously Hants Reserve then 1st Garrison BN Devons in India.

Edited 7 January , 2023 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

This is AL Cotgreave, alias Cot. 

 Alfred L Cotgreave

Service numbers 154, 360792

Rank Sergeant,

Royal Sussex Regiment, then Labour Corps

That confirms a full transfer so that his parent unit was Labour Corps.  I can only assume then that the buttons are leather.

Edited 7 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Another East Yorkshire Regiment PC. Postally used (post marked 26th July 1910, Stanhope Lines, Aldershot) by JA ‘Jack’ Davies to his wife, Edith residing in the married quarters at Bordon (151, F Block). He’s apparently present in the image as he asks his wife if she can spot him. 
Had a search on the internet and identified the village as Wrecclesham as found virtually the same image of an other battalion marching past that same spot and onlookers. The Dog & Partridge closed in 1927.

Mike