Postcards

[GWF1967]

Left. "J. Felton Harris. 53918 N.Z.M.C."? -    Sgt. T/WO1 - James Felton Harris. 28th Reinforcements. N.Z.E.F.  - France 26/0/1917.  1st Canterbury Infantry Regiment.

Rear. "E. Cross. No/ 2287. 1st R. War. R." -    Pte. Edward Cross.  2287. 1st Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment. - 311958. 745 Coy Labour Corps.  - 2287. 1st R. War. R. 

Right. "Ernest Arthur Rogers standing right" -  No further details. 

Front. "8035/ J. Gebbels.  Oxf & Bucks Lt Infty" -    Sgt. Henry Theodore Jeffery Gebbels.  France. 14/8/1914. 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks Light Infantry.  Later served with 5th Battalion.  The photograph dates to after May 1918 as his stripe was awarded for sickness (Otitis Media).

Married. Mabel Annie Newbutt. 24/10/1915, St. James Norlands, Kensington, London.  He is listed as a Bandsman, at Cambridge Barracks, Portsmouth, Hampshire. 

Served post war as Sgt. 5373088. Ox & Bucks L.I.

His medals were posted to him at the Royal Military School of Music, Kneller Hall, Twickenham.  He later became Bandmaster/O.T.C. Master, Rugby School, Warwickshire.

Died. Rugby, Warks. - 1968.  Aged 76. 

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Left. "J. Felton Harris. 53918 N.Z.M.C."? -    Sgt. T/WO1 - James Felton Harris. 28th Reinforcements. N.Z.E.F.  - France 26/0/1917.  1st Canterbury Infantry Regiment.

Rear. "E. Cross. No/ 2287. 1st R. War. R." -    Pte. Edward Cross.  2287. 1st Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment. - 311958. 745 Coy Labour Corps.  - 2287. 1st R. War. R. 

Right. "Ernest Arthur Rogers standing right" -  No further details. 

Front. "8035/ J. Gebbels.  Oxf & Bucks Lt Infty" -    Sgt. Henry Theodore Jeffery Gebbels.  France. 14/8/1914. 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks Light Infantry.  Later served with 5th Battalion.  The photograph dates to after May 1918 as his stripe was awarded for sickness (Otitis Media).

Married. Mabel Annie Newbutt. 24/10/1915, St. James Norlands, Kensington, London.  He is listed as a Bandsman, at Cambridge Barracks, Portsmouth, Hampshire. 

Served post war as Sgt. 5373088. Ox & Bucks L.I.

His medals were posted to him at the Royal Military School of Music, Kneller Hall, Twickenham.  He later became Bandmaster/O.T.C. Master, Rugby School, Warwickshire.

Died. Rugby, Warks. - 1968.  Aged 76. 

The front and centre fellow wears the bandsman’s badge, but no sergeant’s stripes, so he presumably achieved that rank postwar.  The men left and right give one of the best views I’ve seen of brown leather general service (GS) buttons issued as an expedient to save metal in the second half of the war.

The New Zealand abbreviation does seem unusual (or at least unfamiliar), I wonder if NZMC stands for New Zealand Militia - Canterbury.

Edited 15 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

"From Your Loving Son George. Nov 9/15. - To Mrs Gittins, Betton View, Bynner St, Belle View, Shrewsbury, England"   

  The card is stamped "Freigegeben Dyrotz" - Realeased Dyrotz Camp. 

Pte. George F. Gittins. B .6/4/98.   TE-12538,  2nd South African Infantry.   Address given - Fraserberg, Paulak Station, Cape Province, South Africa. 

Captured, 24/3/1916.  -  Can anyone make out the word above please? 

Arrived at Dover 22/11/1918.  

[PRC]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

Captured, 24/3/1916.  -  Can anyone make out the word above please? 

Moislains

Cheers,
Peter

[GWF1967]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Moislains

Cheers,
Peter

Many thanks Peter. 

[GWF1967]

Merry Christmas to all. 
 

[mark holden]

On 15/12/2022 at 09:04, FROGSMILE said:

The front and centre fellow wears the bandsman’s badge, but no sergeant’s stripes, so he presumably achieved that rank postwar.  The men left and right give one of the best views I’ve seen of brown leather general service (GS) buttons issued as an expedient to save metal in the second half of the war.

The New Zealand abbreviation does seem unusual (or at least unfamiliar), I wonder if NZMC stands for New Zealand Militia - Canterbury.

Frogsmile,

NZMC is the the New Zealand Medical Corps.

 

regards and Happy Christmas 

 

Mark

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, mark holden said:

Frogsmile,

NZMC is the the New Zealand Medical Corps.

 

regards and Happy Christmas 

 

Mark

 

Thank you Mark.  I really should have worked that one out!  Hopefully my last ‘duhhh’… moment for 2022.

[mrfrank]

This is one of a number of East Yorkshire Regiment related postcards that I’ve just purchased seemingly from an original collection that was being broken up. There were a large number of individual and small group images that had been signed by the subjects. I was interested in them as they date to a period shortly after my own Great Grandfather had joined the regiment. The majority seem to fall into the 83XX-85XX service number range therefore I’m guessing that they’re perhaps new recruits undergoing initial training at the Regimental Depot, Victoria Barracks, Beverley in 1906. I’ll be looking at the Snapper available on the OM for further information on the individuals. 
This is a good example of the cards: 

8317 Private Robert F Lee who entered France on 15th January 1915. Later promoted Cpl. 

8323 Private V Goodhand (no E Yorkshire MiC that I can find and nothing in The Snapper)

 

 

Edited 27 December , 2022 by mrfrank
Another image

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

This is one of a number of East Yorkshire Regiment related postcards that I’ve just purchased seemingly from an original collection that was being broken up. There were a large number of individual and small group images that had been signed by the subjects. I was interested in them as they date to a period shortly after my own Great Grandfather had joined the regiment. The majority seem to fall into the 83XX-85XX service number range therefore I’m guessing that they’re perhaps new recruits undergoing initial training at the Regimental Depot, Victoria Barracks, Beverley in 1906. I’ll be looking at the Snapper available on the OM for further information on the individuals. 
This is a good example of the cards: 

8317 Private Robert F Lee who entered France on 15th January 1915. Later promoted Cpl. 

8323 Private V Goodhand (no E Yorkshire MiC that I can find and nothing in The Snapper)

 

 

Super example of two regulars looking spick and span in their barrack room.  Their cots (folding beds) have been made up for daytime routine, when they were converted into seating with palliasse covered in blankets for protection.  The cots are unusually close together, which suggests either, that these two men had an awkward corner of the barrack room, or that the type of hut/block favoured pairs of beds between windows.  Either way it’s not something I’ve seen before and would have created awkwardness for bed making and sweeping under and around.  Looking at the dimensions it’s almost certainly two men crammed into the space intended for one (these dimensions were laid down in materiel regulations following Victorian era reforms intended to reduce incidence of disease in barrack rooms - Scarlet fever had been a particular scourge).

Behind them on the wall their clothing and equipment has been arranged into ‘top kits’, a routine that was still in existence when I enlisted (although it varied in scope), but is seen no longer.  In essence load carrying equipment was at that time either, hung behind, or folded, and on a shelf above was placed kitbag with name stencilled, spare clothing folded and squared off, along with (in this case) ammunition pouches intended for the 1903 bandolier equipment waistbelt.  The 03 equipment was issued interim between after the Boer War until 1908, when Mills web equipment began to replace it.  One soldier has even placed his swagger stick for walking out on the pegs beneath his shelf.  Both men have SMLEs that reinforce the likely date span when the photo was taken.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

58 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

8323 Private V Goodhand (no E Yorkshire MiC that I can find and nothing in The Snapper)

There is a pre-war soldier V Goodhand who landed in France with the ASC on the 25th August 1914. He would go on to serve with the RAF.

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

His RAF service record is on FindMyPast as Vernon Goodhand. As a minimum should have date of his original enlistment, but may also have more details of his earlier military career that could help rule him in or out. No obvious match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales or the 1911 Census of Ireland, (tried looking there for a V G as well). There is a Vernon Goodhand on the 1891 Census aged 2 and 1901 Census aged 12 - born Hull.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited 27 December , 2022 by PRC
Add image source acknowledgement

[mrfrank]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

There is a pre-war soldier V Goodhand who landed in France with the ASC on the 25th August 1914. He would go on to serve with the RAF.

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

His RAF service record is on FindMyPast as Vernon Goodhand. As a minimum should have date of his original enlistment, but may also have more details of his earlier military career that could help rule him in or out. No obvious match on the 1911 Census of England & Wales or the 1911 Census of Ireland, (tried looking there for a V G as well). There is a Vernon Goodhand on the 1891 Census aged 2 and 1901 Census aged 12 - born Hull.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Thanks Peter. I had seen that pre-war regular ASC MiC for V Goodhand and wondered if it was him. As there’s no further EYR trace of him, perhaps he quickly realised the regular infantry wasn’t for him and got a transfer to the ASC. The fact that Vernon Goodhand is on the Hull 1901 & 1911 census returns and he’d be approximately 17 in this photo then I’m fairly confident it’s him. Good stuff. 

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

.  In essence load carrying equipment was at that time either, hung behind, or folded, and on a shelf above was placed kitbag with name stencilled, spare clothing folded and squared off, along with (in this case) ammunition pouches intended for the 1903 bandolier equipment waistbelt.  The 03 equipment was issued interim between after the Boer War until 1908, when Mills web equipment began to replace it.  One soldier has even placed his swagger stick for walking out on the pegs beneath his shelf.  Both men have SMLEs that reinforce the likely date span when the photo was taken.

A very interesting picture. To my eye both soldiers are holding SMLE rifles but I also see a 1888 pattern bayonet hanging behind the left shoulder of the soldier on the left of the picture. Did this bayonet fit the SMLE? I always thought it was made for an earlier Enfield rifle.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

A very interesting picture. To my eye both soldiers are holding SMLE rifles but I also see a 1888 pattern bayonet hanging behind the left shoulder of the soldier on the left of the picture. Did this bayonet fit the SMLE? I always thought it was made for an earlier Enfield rifle.

Yes, they were known as the Pattern 1888 Mk.1 Sword Bayonet - 2nd type - and as you surmised were originally made for the Magazine Lee Metford and Magazine Lee Enfield rifles, having the clearance hole in the grips and the hole through the pommel for the cleaning rod that was fitted to these rifles.  They were modified for use with the SMLE and still quite common in 1914 even though they’d been superseded by the 1907 design.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, they were known as the Pattern 1888 Mk.1 Sword Bayonet (2nd type), and as you surmised were originally made for the Magazine Lee Metford and Magazine Lee Enfield rifles, having the clearance hole in the grips and the hole through the pommel for the cleaning rod that was fitted to these rifles.  They were modified for use with the SMLE and still quite common in 1914 even though they’d been superseded by the 1907 design.

Thank you FROGSMILE that explains that well. Best Wishes, Bob.

[Andrew Upton]

48 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

A very interesting picture. To my eye both soldiers are holding SMLE rifles but I also see a 1888 pattern bayonet hanging behind the left shoulder of the soldier on the left of the picture. Did this bayonet fit the SMLE? I always thought it was made for an earlier Enfield rifle.

 

33 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE that explains that well. Best Wishes, Bob.

Bob - despite what you have just been told your earlier assessment was correct. Both soldiers are showing off very early MkI type SMLE's. These will basically only take either the 1903 Pattern or 1907 Pattern (or later derivatives) bayonets. The 1888 Pattern bayonet was designed for the earlier Long Lee Metfield and Enfield type rifles - it has the same blade as the 1903 Pattern but required substantial conversion of the pommel before it will fit the newer SMLE rifle. So it is indeed unusual to see the two of them posing with rifles that will not fit the bayonet/s on their equipment in the back of shot. It could be that the change-over from the Long Lees to the SMLE was in progress when they decided to have their picture taken, and borrowed a couple of the newer type rifles for the occasion, or some other similar explanation:

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE that explains that well. Best Wishes, Bob.

I’m sorry Bob, it’s not ever my intention to mislead you and I had thought when looking at the photo that the bayonets concerned had been modified to fit the SMLEs that the two soldiers are holding, which did occur on a large scale as mentioned.  As you can see, they look very similar from a distance.  The very learned forum member @shippingsteelis the best person to give chapter and verse on these modifications and when they took place.  

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Super example of two regulars looking spick and span in their barrack room.  

.......... I'd put Lee on extras.  Puttees incorrectly wound and tied.

 

Edited 27 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

.......... I'd put Lee on extras.  Puttees incorrectly wound and tied.

 

By more latter day standards I totally agree, but apart from the dismounted/mounted differential there doesn’t appear to have been a strict regulation about tieing off at that time.  A lot of things we later came to think of as normal were actually just things thought up during National Service to keep short service conscripts busy.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

By more latter day standards I totally agree, but apart from the dismounted/mounted differential there doesn’t appear to have been a strict regulation about tieing off at that time.  

I suspect an old puttee wearer like youself might have missed my point here Frogsmile.  This fellow has opted for both puttees wound clockwise.  As you know puttees are always wound from the inside of the leg and forward (right leg clockwise and left leg anticlockwise) so the ties end up on the outer leg.  There are thousands of Great War (and before) photos showing the ties on the outside of the leg but only a few dozen-ish incorrectly tied .......... invariably unsupervised recruits or tired soldiers....... that in itself suggests uniformity of dress imposed from somewhere by someone.   

Ties on the outside were the norm long before, during and after the Great War.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I suspect an old puttee wearer like youself might have missed my point here Frogsmile.  This fellow has opted for both puttees wound clockwise.  As you know puttees are always wound from the inside of the leg and forward (right leg clockwise and left leg anticlockwise) so the ties end up on the outer leg.  There are thousands of Great War (and before) photos showing the ties on the outside of the leg but only a few dozen-ish incorrectly tied .......... invariably unsupervised recruits or tired soldiers....... that in itself suggests uniformity of dress imposed from somewhere by someone.   

Ties on the outside were the norm long before, during and after the Great War.

Yes I totally agree that ties on the outside was by far the most common, I just don’t think it was so strictly observed back then.  It seems unlikely that they had not mustered before the photo was taken, and if considered a crucial point he’d have been picked up and corrected.  Of course we’ll never know, but I understand the point that your making.  I’ve certainly seen sufficiently similar situations in photos of that period.  For example check out puttees in GWF1967 post just above that shows several soldiers with leather buttons.

Edited 28 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Some information on Pte Lee from ‘The Snapper’ 

1910 - (Under news from the 3rd Battalion) - Pte RF Lee joins the 1st Battalion on 26th January 1910 prior to proceeding to the 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad with the draft that left Southampton on 2nd February.

1911 - Awarded Good Conduct badge whilst with 2nd Bn in Fyzabad. 

1915 - Entry in ‘Roll of Honour’ as having been wounded. 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Some information on Pte Lee from ‘The Snapper’ 

1910 - (Under news from the 3rd Battalion) - Pte RF Lee joins the 1st Battalion on 26th January 1910 prior to proceeding to the 2nd Battalion at Fyzabad with the draft that left Southampton on 2nd February.

1911 - Awarded Good Conduct badge whilst with 2nd Bn in Fyzabad. 

1915 - Entry in ‘Roll of Honour’ as having been wounded. 

That all makes sense as a typical sequence and suggests the photo was taken in 1909 at the regimental depot.

[Andrew Upton]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That all makes sense as a typical sequence and suggests the photo was taken in 1909 at the regimental depot.

Both men wear SD jackets with shoulder cords as introduced in 1903, but RACD pattern 5081f of July 1908 specified an Administrative Change (all corded Jackets to be turned in and only metal titles worn). The newer pattern with fixed shoulder straps had already been introduced in 1904, so it is unlikely that at least 5+ months after the admin change they would still be getting away with breaking the new regulation. This would tend to suggest the picture dates at best to mid 1908, and more likely before that.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Both men wear SD jackets with shoulder cords as introduced in 1903, but RACD pattern 5081f of July 1908 specified an Administrative Change (all corded Jackets to be turned in and only metal titles worn). The newer pattern with fixed shoulder straps had already been introduced in 1904, so it is unlikely that at least 5+ months after the admin change they would still be getting away with breaking the new regulation. This would tend to suggest the picture dates at best to mid 1908, and more likely before that.

Yes, I believe that it could be as late as 1908, but disagree that a 5+ months delay in receiving new clothing and equipment would be especially unusual.  Such changes were usually administered via each regional Command’s subordinate Districts (within which regimental depots sat) so that any units parading together could be dressed similarly.  Clearly not all could receive shipments of new pattern clothing at exactly the same time.  There would also have been local modification organised via regimental tailors, for units where they were on establishment, especially for such a relatively straightforward change as replacing shoulder cords with straps.  I cannot recall if there was a sergeant master tailor on depot permanent staff establishments.  Depots were also generally locations where obsolescent equipment was wasted out, the priority for new issues being the regular battalions.

Edited 28 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE