Postcards

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I believe that it could be as late as 1908, but disagree that a 5+ months delay in receiving new clothing and equipment would be especially unusual.  ....

It's not a delay in receiving new equipment though - that is the point. In 1908 the newer pattern SD jackets that replaced them had already been in place for almost four YEARS - hence the administrative change finally getting rid of the last of the obsolete pattern that had still managed to linger on in service to that date. The wording of the 1908 order was unequivocal, and once that came out the fate of the corded jackets would have been very quickly sealed.

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

It's not a delay in receiving new equipment though - that is the point. In 1908 the newer pattern SD jackets that replaced them had already been in place for almost four YEARS - hence the administrative change finally getting rid of the last of the obsolete pattern that had still managed to linger on in service to that date. The wording of the 1908 order was unequivocal, and once that came out the fate of the corded jackets would have been very quickly sealed.

Presumably it will be possible to confirm the most likely year (and that’s all we’re talking about, I don’t see this as a competition) by examining the soldier who transferred’s military record.  Knowing his original enlistment date and thus joining the depot should solve it.  As you’ve pointed out the presence of the old bayonets is significant too and would also lean towards an earlier date.

Edited 28 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

The card in question came from an original collection that was being broken up. This was one of a number of posed individual and small group images of very young looking recruits that are usually signed or have the surnames to the reverse in pencil. A quick search of ‘The Snapper’ shows that the majority of these young soldiers have regimental numbers falling in the 83XX-85XX range. Therefore, a best guess is they likely date to 1906-early 1907. 
One image is of a Cpl and is signed and dated to early 1907.  

[charlie962]

On 15/12/2022 at 02:04, GWF1967 said:

Front. "8035/ J. Gebbels.  Oxf & Bucks Lt Infty" -    Sgt. Henry Theodore Jeffery Gebbels.  France. 14/8/1914. 2nd Battalion Ox & Bucks Light Infantry.  Later served with 5th Battalion.  The photograph dates to after May 1918 as his stripe was awarded for sickness (Otitis Media).

Stripe for sickness? The lower left sleeve wound stripe is because he was wounded 1914. There was no badge awarded for sickness! 

However if those are overseas service chevrons on his lower right sleeve (unclear and all the others hide their sleeves) that will give you an approx date. 

Charlie

 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

The card in question came from an original collection that was being broken up. This was one of a number of posed individual and small group images of very young looking recruits that are usually signed or have the surnames to the reverse in pencil. A quick search of ‘The Snapper’ shows that the majority of these young soldiers have regimental numbers falling in the 83XX-85XX range. Therefore, a best guess is they likely date to 1906-early 1907. 
One image is of a Cpl and is signed and dated to early 1907.  

Thank you Mike, that’s very helpful.  Not as late as 08/09, but seemingly still some years after the jacket change.  It’s a pity that we are unable to consult the two soldiers Service records, but of course not very many have survived.

[GWF1967]

26 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Stripe for sickness? The lower left sleeve wound stripe is because he was wounded 1914. There was no badge awarded for sickness! 

However if those are overseas service chevrons on his lower right sleeve (unclear and all the others hide their sleeves) that will give you an approx date. 

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie. 
 I thought a stripe was awarded for being hospitalised. 
 Can I ask where you found a record of his 1914 wounding please?

[mrfrank]

This is the dated photo that came in the group of postcards. Cpl Richard Goodall 5343. 
Quite a number of mentions in ‘The Snapper’.

Arrives Fyzabad 28Mar09 to join the 2nd Bn.

Promoted Sgt 01Mar10.

Part of Guard of Honour at Govt House during the Imperial visit to Calcutta in Dec11.

2nd Bn gymnastic instructor 1912

Instructor’s Certificate Physical Training 28Apr13.

After formation of 9th Bn in Nov14, he arrives from India as an instructor.

Can’t find an EYR MiC for 5343 Goodall, but strangely enough there is one for 5343 under the name of A/CSM ER Scott, commissioned 2/Lt and KiA 1918 that has the address for his widow c/o a Mrs Goodall of Stockton on Forest, near York.

Edit: He assumed the alias of Edward Richard Scott (possibly on gaining his commission?). 
Killed in action in  Feb18 aged 39 with the 7th Bn, EYR and buried Hermies Hill British Cemetery.

 

 

Edited 2 January , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

This is the dated photo that came in the group of postcards. Cpl Richard Goodall 5343. 
Quite a number of mentions in ‘The Snapper’.

Arrives Fyzabad 28Mar09 to join the 2nd Bn.

Promoted Sgt 01Mar10.

Part of Guard of Honour at Govt House during the Imperial visit to Calcutta in Dec11.

2nd Bn gymnastic instructor 1912

Instructor’s Certificate Physical Training 28Apr13.

After formation of 9th Bn in Nov14, he arrives from India as an instructor.

Can’t find an EYR MiC for 5343 Goodall, but strangely enough there is one for 5343 A/CSM ER Scott, commissioned 2/Lt and KiA 1918 that has the address for his widow c/o a Mrs Goodall of Stockton on Forest, near York.

 

Super photo of Cpl Goodall wearing the older pattern SD jacket, with twisted cord shoulder strap, in 1907.  His shoulder titles are the woven thread type worn on the upper arm accordingly.

His badge as Gymnastics Instructor on the upper arm is clear and his slouch hat suggests that the battalion (depot) he was serving with had still not yet received their drab service dress caps that began to roll out on issue in 1905.

All this is typical of obsolescent equipment being wasted out at the depot.

image by permission. 

Edited 28 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

32 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Can I ask where you found a record of his 1914 wounding please?

Courtesy the GENEALOGIST.

"Forename H T J

Surname Gebbols

Casualty Status Wounded - Cambridge Hospital, Aldershot

Rank Lance Corporal

Service Number 8035

Regiment Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

Category Nco's and Men

Daily List Date 16th November 1914

Report Received Date 2nd October 1914

Source Daily Casualty Lists " 

So probable actual wounding late Sept 1914.

Edited 28 December , 2022 by charlie962

[GWF1967]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Courtesy the GENEALOGIST.

Many thanks. 

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Therefore, a best guess is they likely date to 1906-early 1907. 
One image is of a Cpl and is signed and dated to early 1907.  

Thank you for that, good to have the date confirmed. As the late great Joe Sweeney wrote "All Patterns of jackets were commonly worn concurrently as late as 1908", but as I already posted once that order came into effect the fate of the corded jackets still in service would have been swiftly sealed.
 

[Gunner 87]

L/Sgt Herbert Charles Miles, 66252, 1031631, 26th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery and 1st Division HQ. Joined as a Trumpeter at Shoeburyness 17/07/11. Discharged 23/08/24. The last photograph was taken at Shoeburyness. 

[mrfrank]

Another East Yorkshire Regiment PC taken at Victoria Barracks, Beverley.

”Our Dining Hall”…….

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Another East Yorkshire Regiment PC taken at Victoria Barracks, Beverley.

”Our Dining Hall”…….

That’s quite a significant photograph mr frank because it’s actually a converted barrack room, which was generally how the first dining rooms were created (so too the first married quarters at many locations).

For the big, Cardwell induced barracks building scheme of the 1870s (on a scale not matched until Hore Belisha and the RAF in the late 1930s), men were still to collect their rations from company cookhouses (kitchens) and consume them at a bench table and trestle seating in the centre of their accommodation (via a daily duty system) between folded beds.  It was in the decade after the 2nd Boer War that a new system of dining rooms intended to improve the living conditions of soldiers was introduced.

You can still see the fireplace at the end and the shelves for top kits that once surmounted each man’s bed-space in between windows.

 

Edited 2 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mrfrank]

Thanks for that interesting information Bob. I do like the effort to soften the ambiance by repurposing the kit shelves as plant ‘stands’. Still looks pretty austere to the modern eye though. Reckon the image again dates to about 1907.  

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Thanks for that interesting information Bob. I do like the effort to soften the ambiance by repurposing the kit shelves as plant ‘stands’. Still looks pretty austere to the modern eye though. Reckon the image again dates to about 1907.  

Yes I think the date is about right, and assuming that it is the East Yorks the SNCO on the left is a company colour sergeant and wearing the much larger crown above his 3-stripes that was common at that time. 

[TullochArd]

50 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

 Reckon the image again dates to about 1907.  

Reckon so.  The images of the Royals either side of the clock are Edward VII (1901-1910) and Queen Alexandra.

Edited 2 January , 2023 by TullochArd

[mrfrank]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think the date is about right, and assuming that it is the East Yorks the SNCO on the left is a company colour sergeant and wearing the much larger crown above his 3-stripes that was common at that time. 

Definitely East Yorkshire Regiment Bob. Signed ‘Jack’ to reverse. I suspect this is John A Davies 5689 EYR, later C/Sgt per MIC. He was probably the original owner of this collection of cards that were broken up. Couple are sent to his girlfriend (and later wife) Miss Edith J Teece of 3 Newbegin, Beverley. 
 

Mike

Edited 2 January , 2023 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

Going back to my earlier post of 28th Dec and the image of Cpl Richard Goodall 5343.

‘Can’t find an EYR MiC for 5343 Goodall, but strangely enough there is one for 5343 A/CSM ER Scott, commissioned 2/Lt and KiA 1918 that has the address for his widow c/o a Mrs Goodall of Stockton on Forest, near York’.

Seems that Edward Richard Scott was an alias used by Richard Goodall and that he was killed in action on 19th Feb 1918 with the 7th Bn aged 39. Perhaps he assumed the alias on commissioning? The alias came up at the National Archives.

Mike

[mrfrank]

Another pair of very youthful looking recruits.

Chap on the left is probably 8543 Pte Ernest Bottomley. Arrived 2nd Bn, Fyzabad 28Mar09

1st Good Conduct Badge Feb11, 2nd Aug13. Promoted L/Cpl Mar12. 
Entered France 15Jan15. Later Sgt and MM winner.

Served with the Tank Corps 77358. 

Not sure of the name to the right. Looks more like ‘Mash’ to me, could be Pte 9104 Pte E Nash?

Edit: following a suggestion by Bob, a better option is that it’s 8532 Pte John W Marsh. Better because these two individuals then have very closely matching regimental numbers. 
His MiC is interesting as it is marked ‘Forfeited for desertion 26th May 1915’

Entered France 8th Sep 1914 with 1st Battalion. 

 

Edited 2 January , 2023 by mrfrank

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Another pair of very youthful looking recruits.

Chap on the left is probably 8543 Pte Ernest Bottomley. Arrived 2nd Bn, Fyzabad 28Mar09

1st Good Conduct Badge Feb11, 2nd Aug13. Promoted L/Cpl Mar12. 
Entered France 15Jan15. Later Sgt and MM winner.

Served with the Tank Corps 77358. 

Not sure of the name to the right. Looks more like ‘Mash’ to me, could be Pte 9104 Pte E Nash?

Masham perhaps?  It’s an absolutely cracking photo of two young soldier ‘pals’, one of the best that I’ve seen for a while.  Could they have enlisted as Boy entrants, they have that look about them?  Seasoned wearers of army uniform.

Edited 2 January , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Definitely East Yorkshire Regiment Bob. Signed ‘Jack’ to reverse. I suspect this is John A Davies 5689 EYR, later C/Sgt per MIC. He was probably the original owner of this collection of cards that were broken up. Couple are sent to his girlfriend (and later wife) Miss Edith J Teece of 3 Newbegin, Beverley. 
 

Mike

He’s a colour sergeant in the photo so that doesn’t really chime with being one later unless he was recalled from pension upon the outbreak of war.

[mrfrank]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

He’s a colour sergeant in the photo so that doesn’t really chime with being one later unless he was recalled from pension upon the outbreak of war.

Think I’ve led you astray there…..the C/Sgt in the postcard image isn’t the original owner and our later C/Sgt J Davies 5689.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, mrfrank said:

Think I’ve led you astray there…..the C/Sgt in the postcard image isn’t the original owner and our later C/Sgt J Davies 5689.

Ah I see, yes I did misunderstand.  So it’s a photo from the collection of a later colour sergeant.  Got it!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrfrank said:

Going back to my earlier post of 28th Dec and the image of Cpl Richard Goodall 5343.

‘Can’t find an EYR MiC for 5343 Goodall, but strangely enough there is one for 5343 A/CSM ER Scott, commissioned 2/Lt and KiA 1918 that has the address for his widow c/o a Mrs Goodall of Stockton on Forest, near York’.

Seems that Edward Richard Scott was an alias used by Richard Goodall and that he was killed in action on 19th Feb 1918 with the 7th Bn aged 39. Perhaps he assumed the alias on commissioning? The alias came up at the National Archives.

Mike

Some times the same number was reissued regimentally, I recall that it’s been written about in past posts.  One of the forum genealogists might be able to elaborate.