Postcards

[SHJ]

You're right Frogsmile.  I've stared at this photo for years and never made the connection between the horse and the small rectangular windows of the building - it's a stable.

 

Here's another Postcard from my collection of the CEF on Salisbury.  This image is of the same as yet unidentified Lance Corporal on the horse with my GGU 21166 P E Joiner in the centre and another unidentified Canadian on the right.  This has the look of a spontaneous "Take your picture gents?..".  Note the Salisbury tents in the background.  The stables were far better constructed with concrete foundations rather than brick pilings of the Armstrong* huts.

 

 

I wonder if they are the buildings in the top left from this image of Canadians on Salisbury (also a postcard in this thread that Moonraker shared) from the ILN from 7th Nov 1914

 

 

* Edit: it seems the history of the military hut is a lot more interesting and yet obscure than I could have imagined.   GWF member kld50 has written a PHD on the subject: The Development, Typology and Identification of Temporary Military Buildings in Britain 1914-1945 and it is fascinating!  https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/146463385.pdf. I think this subject needs a separate postcard/image thread!

 

 

Edited 21 January , 2021 by SHJ
don't know my right from left (amongst many other things)

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

You're right Frogsmile.  I've stared at this photo for years and never made the connection between the horse and the small rectangular windows of the building - it's a stable.

 

Here's another Postcard of the CEF on Salisbury.  This image is of the same as yet unidentified Lance Corporal on the horse with my GGU 21166 P E Joiner in the centre and another unidentified Canadian on the right.  This has the look of a spontaneous "Take your picture gents?..".  Note the Salisbury tents in the background.  The stables were far better constructed with concrete foundations rather than brick pilings of the Armstrong huts.

 

 

I wonder if they are the buildings in the top right from this image of Canadians on Salisbury (also a postcard in this thread that Moonraker shared) from the ILN from 7th Nov 1914

 

 

Edit: it seems the history of the military hut is a lot more interesting and yet obscure than I could have imagined.   GWF member kld50 has written a PHD on the subject: The Development, Typology and Identification of Temporary Military Buildings in Britain 1914-1945 and it is fascinating!  https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/146463385.pdf. I think this subject needs a separate postcard/image thread!

 

 

I think that the buildings top left on the horizon are probably some of the famous hangars at Larkhill that were used in the early days of aviation.  From memory I think they were originally balloon hangars but also subsequently used for aircraft.  The central track along which the soldiers march is the Packway (named from its original use) and they are heading towards Larkhill with the sites of Fargo and Rollestone behind them.

 

Edited 13 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

35 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that the buildings top left on the horizon are probably some of the famous hangars at Larkhill that were used in the early days of aviation.  From memory I think they were originally balloon hangars but also subsequently used for aircraft.  The central track along which the soldiers march is the Packway (named from its original use) and they are heading towards Larkhill with the sites of Fargo and Rollestone behind them.

I'm not so sure myself that those buildings are hangars - they look more like Armstrong huts, being slimmer and longer, and there were more hangars in 1914 (though others  could be hidden behind the tent. If they were the hangars and that is the Packway, the soldiers are certainly marching west, but they've yet to pass the hangars and Fargo and Rollestone are at least a mile ahead of them.

 

Horatio Barber rented a plot close by on Durrington Down, where in 1909 he built a tin shed to house an aeroplane of his own design. Another shed was erected for C. S. Rolls who, as well as co-founder of the Rolls-Royce automobile company, was an aviation pioneer. But he was killed in a flying accident before he could take possession. Later that year, George Cockburn erected another shed there for his Henry Farman plane and Captain John Fulton leased the shed intended for Rolls. Encouraged by such private enterprise, the Army built two double aeroplane sheds on the site in 1910. It also encouraged the British and Colonial Aircraft Company to construct a three-bay and two more double sheds on the land, with the latter carefully positioned so that they did not block the view from Stonehenge of the sun rising at the Summer Solstice.

 

The balloon hangars were/are west of the original Rollestone Camp (which was east of the road to the Bustard Inn) and in the grounds of the present one (which is west). The RFC requisitioned an initial fifty acres of land to establish Number 1 Balloon School in 1916 to train balloon observers. Fine photo of the hangars, by the way. I must have tried to get up close to them but I vaguely recall that they are none to visible from outside the camp fence.

 

One can get up close to the Larkhill  "aeroplane sheds" and IIRC there's now a memorial plinth in front of them.

 

 

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

* Edit: it seems the history of the military hut is a lot more interesting and yet obscure than I could have imagined.   GWF member kld50 has written a PHD on the subject: The Development, Typology and Identification of Temporary Military Buildings in Britain 1914-1945 and it is fascinating!  https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/146463385.pdf. I think this subject needs a separate postcard/image thread!

 

 

Great link. It's the sort of dissertation for us to bear in mind when in the future questions are posted about huts. I was even more impressed  when I saw that I was quoted and credited! We do have various existing threads about huts and hutted camps (Google "great war forum huts") and over the years I (and others) have posted photos of huts being constructed, gnarly builders and so on. I recall upsetting one member whose ancestor had helped build camps by posting comments about the attitude of some workers and the quality of some of the huts.

[SHJ]

Yes, I think those buildings are way too large to be the stables in my photo - sometimes my desire for something overrides logic.  Sometimes?  Anyhow - here's a Postcard showing CEF 12th Battalion Farriers inside stables on Salisbury.  Looks like a half unfinished hut tbh.

 

Image courtesy of the Canadian War Museum Records Office.

 

Edit - grainy but specific stable building image from 'With the First Canadian Contingent' published in 1915

 

 

Edited 13 January , 2021 by SHJ
clarity and added dash (if not elan)

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it certainly looks like a partially constructed hut.  There was a particular contractor who built a lot of them.  There’s a discrete website devoted to the company somewhere.

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

I'm not so sure myself that those buildings are hangars - they look more like Armstrong huts, being slimmer and longer, and there were more hangars in 1914 (though others  could be hidden behind the tent. If they were the hangars and that is the Packway, the soldiers are certainly marching west, but they've yet to pass the hangars and Fargo and Rollestone are at least a mile ahead of them.

 

Horatio Barber rented a plot close by on Durrington Down, where in 1909 he built a tin shed to house an aeroplane of his own design. Another shed was erected for C. S. Rolls who, as well as co-founder of the Rolls-Royce automobile company, was an aviation pioneer. But he was killed in a flying accident before he could take possession. Later that year, George Cockburn erected another shed there for his Henry Farman plane and Captain John Fulton leased the shed intended for Rolls. Encouraged by such private enterprise, the Army built two double aeroplane sheds on the site in 1910. It also encouraged the British and Colonial Aircraft Company to construct a three-bay and two more double sheds on the land, with the latter carefully positioned so that they did not block the view from Stonehenge of the sun rising at the Summer Solstice.

 

The balloon hangars were/are west of the original Rollestone Camp (which was east of the road to the Bustard Inn) and in the grounds of the present one (which is west). The RFC requisitioned an initial fifty acres of land to establish Number 1 Balloon School in 1916 to train balloon observers. Fine photo of the hangars, by the way. I must have tried to get up close to them but I vaguely recall that they are none to visible from outside the camp fence.

 

One can get up close to the Larkhill  "aeroplane sheds" and IIRC there's now a memorial plinth in front of them.

 

 

I personally think that Fargo and current Rollestone (which is what I was referring to) are behind them, but agree that it might not be the hangars, there’s a flat part between the two chevron points of the hut roofs.  The current Rollestone where the balloon sheds are is as you say not at the same location as the Rollestone camp of WWW1.

Edited 13 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

More CEF Salisbury? from my collection  Seems to be a gathering of mostly NCO's with a 2nd Lieutenant looking unimpressed (perhaps due to the the aspidistra 'stand').  Hut is on bricks as per Salisbury style but now has a surround veranda.

 

4th from right middle is same unknown Lance Corporal in the previous 2 postcards.

 

5th from right middle is the same man in the Postcard with the CEF boys in the mud.

 

These men look like brothers 

Edited 22 January , 2021 by SHJ

[FROGSMILE]

Guard Rooms and Orderly Rooms were usually built with verandahs.  The former for the Guard to ‘turn out’, and for ‘defaulters parades’.  The latter for those awaiting ‘Orderly Room’ (soldiers and NCOs appearing in front of OCs for a variety of reasons).

Edited 13 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

2 hours ago, Moonraker said:

... I recall upsetting one member whose ancestor had helped build camps by posting comments about the attitude of some workers and the quality of some of the huts.

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

...  There was a particular contractor who built a lot of them.  There’s a discrete website devoted to the company somewhere.

Sir John Jackson Ltd. Prompted thus by Frogsmile, I shall now link to the thread I mentioned earlier.

[FROGSMILE]

In relation to your last comment in the linked thread I think it’s been overlooked that the vast majority of the camps were built on camping grounds used by the volunteer force and militia, as well as regulars annual summer manoeuvres, since many decades beforehand.

Edited 13 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

That's very true, certainly in Wiltshire and particularly on Salisbury Plain. Sling, Perham Down, Park House, West Down, Pond Farm and the Lark Hill complex of several sites had all been camping-sites before the war. Very occasionally the army had used land at Fovant and Sutton Veny for short-term stays during wide-ranging manoeuvres. I think that Longbridge Deverill (Sand Hill) and Chisledon were "brand-new" sites, the first being an extension of those in the Warminster area, the second being well placed geographically (though on  land  described as "an unpleasant spot, well known as a snipe resort in the winter, and consequently a very wet one").

[Moonraker]

Canadians building a hut on the Plain:

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photos, thank you for posting them, especially the one with the painstakingly painted lyrics.  Very evocative and amusing in equal measure.

[SHJ]

Fabulous photos!  Thanks for posting.  Pipes 1 Fags 1 in Steam and Pipes 1 Fags 2 in Brickies.

[SHJ]

On 27/12/2015 at 15:27, SABRES12 said:

from page 138... Puttee patches or bands?

[SHJ]

On 13/01/2021 at 16:12, FROGSMILE said:

Guard Rooms and Orderly Rooms were usually built with verandahs.  The former for the Guard to ‘turn out’, and for ‘defaulters parades’.  The latter for those awaiting ‘Orderly Room’ (soldiers and NCOs appearing in front of OCs for a variety of reasons).

Thanks Frogsmile, this makes compete sense but I don't recall seeing any images of men in front of a veranda'd building like this one before - perhaps because the Guard / Orderly rooms would be considered off limits for on the spur of the moment photography.  I don't see it as a design in the hut dissertation by kld50 either.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, SHJ said:

Thanks Frogsmile, this makes compete sense but I don't recall seeing any images of men in front of a veranda'd building like this one before - perhaps because the Guard / Orderly rooms would be considered off limits for on the spur of the moment photography.  I don't see it as a design in the hut dissertation by kld50 either.

I don’t know if the verandahs were added in some way.  I’ve lived in various places in Britain where a few of the WW1 huts were still standing, including Netheravon and Codford, but also camps in Surrey.  One of the largest concentrations of ex WW1 huts that I ever saw close up, formed a village for Polish veterans of WW2 to live in.  You’re probably right that they rarely fell into the frame of camera shots, both Orderly Room and Guard Room were places to be avoided.  The former containing RSM, Adjutant and CO/OC and the latter the Provost Sergeant and, intermittently, the orderly officer and orderly sergeant of the day. 

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

2 hours ago, SHJ said:

Thanks Frogsmile, this makes compete sense but I don't recall seeing any images of men in front of a veranda'd building like this one before - perhaps because the Guard / Orderly rooms would be considered off limits for on the spur of the moment photography.  I don't see it as a design in the hut dissertation by kld50 either.

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t know if the verandahs were added in some way.  I’ve lived in various places in Britain where a few of the WW1 huts were still standing, including Netheravon and Codford, but also camps in Surrey.  One of the largest concentrations of ex WW1 huts that I ever saw close up, formed a village for Polish veterans of WW2 to live in.  You’re probably right that they rarely fell into the frame of camera shots, both Orderly Room and Guard Room were places to be avoided.  The former containing RSM, Adjutant and CO/OC and the latter the Provost Sergeant and, intermittently, the orderly officer and orderly sergeant of the day. 

Just word-searched my list of Wiltshire cards and find that I have three wartime cards captioned Guard Room  at Codford (camp numbers 5, 6 and 10) and one  of Sutton Veny; also quite a few of Tidworth guard rooms before the war. I also have one of the First Canadian Contingent's "guardroom" at a building (readily identifiable today) in  a  flooded Tilshead in January 1915.

 

In fact the Codford Camp number 6 card was the first that I ever purchased. In 1996 I was at a small philatelic fair where a dealer was also selling postcards. I flicked through his "Wiltshire" cards and found one of the camp railway in front of the guardhouse. On impulse I bought it - and soon got hooked on the theme of "military Wiltshire 1897-1920".

[FROGSMILE]

It’s easy for me to understand how you became hooked.  Wherever I served in my almost 40-years I was always interested in the design of the camp or barracks and there was always a strange kind of comfort that wherever I was there were commonalities that assisted in creating a sense of home.

[SHJ]

And like magic the Guard Rooms Post Cards appear:

[SHJ]

More of a Porch but still..

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, SHJ said:

More of a Porch but still..

 

Yes, they appear to have added a ramp or extended the base, but without any overhead cover.  I suspect that they might have added the latter later as it was very difficult to do a guard mount parade in inclement weather unless under some rudimentary cover.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

Perhaps this is the other side:

 

and from Witley camp:

 

 

All from the CEF 202 Battalion website http://www.tudorrow.com/202battalion/index.html

Sacree Post Card Images grabbed from http://www.tudorrow.com/202battalion/sarcee.html and Witley http://www.tudorrow.com/202battalion/witley.html

There's a lot to explore there.

[FROGSMILE]

Those are exactly the type of verandahs that I was referring to and that I have seen myself on surviving huts around 30-years ago.  Interestingly many camps that were reused during WW2 retained WW1 huts with verandahs while infilling and replacing other huts with the more readily constructed Nissen huts made from corrugated iron. 

Edited 15 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE