Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, SHJ said:

 

 

So that's what my Great Grandfather is wearing.  I had wondered if its was a coat or a gown and now it is clear!

 

 

 

Yes, they are not often seen in photos and I've wondered if they were issued generally, or only in the colder climes of Britain.  Alternatively they might be peculiar to the hospital itself and paid for by fund raising for 'troops comforts', which was a widespread philanthropic activity at the time.

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

And since I've finally caught up to date with this enormous thread here's the postcards that I have of my Great Grandfather and Great Grand Uncle.  These have been posted elsewhere on this forum but since they are PostCards...

 

Harry Hugh Joiner, Sapper 3256 RE

 

and HH Joiner, 2nd Lieutenant 552688 1st on left 3rd row from back in No 2 Coy Officer Cadet at Kelham Hall, Oct 1917.  There's a separate thread in the forum that lists the names of all bar one of these OC's.

 

and then presumably very shortly after getting his uniform an individual photo...

 

and his brother Percy Edward Joiner, Corporal 21166, PPCLI (KIA 02/06/1916 Mount Sorrel). This Postcard was sent on 7/2/16

 

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

Harry Hugh Joiner, Sapper 3256 RE

 

 

 

Great cards SHJ. 

 I recognised your Great Grandfather straight away as “one of mine” from my Kelham Hall thread. 

 I noticed you’d also added them to his listing on British Army Ancestors. 

[FROGSMILE]

Very evocative photos SHJ and poignant to see your forebear from the PPCLI.  The Royal Engineer subaltern looks a very fine fellow.  They were/are an elite corps, often having to prepare ground for the infantry assault and/or defence, and frequently among the very last to leave during a withdrawal.

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Cooling Henry Reavill.  Spr.177396.   

Later Pte. 34606, 9th Battalion Loyal North Lancs.  Died 8/6/1917 - Aged 32.   Commemorated on The Menin Gate.

[FROGSMILE]

Yet another poignant photo of a poor fellow combed out into the infantry to feed its voracious maw.  I’ve often wondered how such men felt, especially when into their 30s.  If they’d been in the Army long enough to see what was going on it must have been an anxious time.  Even more so if married with children as older men often were.  I imagine he was probably a casualty of the Battle of ARRAS. 

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

[GWF1967]

A survivor - "J. Fulton, R.G.A. Godesberg, Bonn, Germany. February, 1919"

[FROGSMILE]

That’s interesting.  He made it through to be part of the Rhine Area (bridgehead) British occupation force. Bonn was one of the places with a special focus, two others being Koblenz and Koln itself.

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

These chaps got to Germany before him.  The man 7th from right is thinking of dinner.

"Some of the Old Contemptibles. - Note the mascot"  ???? Lager,  Photographie,  Gustrow I. "POW Camp"

Edited 22 January , 2021 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

John Francis Tomlins. Pte. 2308 - 200593.  Royal Fusiliers.   Pte.204468 Norfolk Regiment.   Pioneer. 531160 - WR/179734 Royal Engineers - Railways.

[GWF1967]

Pte. Leonard Credland. 63574.  2nd Battalion King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

[GWF1967]

Joseph Kirton.  Army Ordnance Corps.

[FROGSMILE]

Joseph Kirton seems to be an interesting case.  He’s clearly a much older man and as a private wearing the arm badge of a qualified armourer.  I don’t know of any other trade that wore that badge within the AOC apart from the armaments artificer, although there were many other smithy oriented trades in the RA, RE, and ASC.  All were specialisms that attended qualification courses run by the ‘Ordnance College’ establishment at Woolwich pre war.  
The badge on such an older man who is still a private suggests that he might have been already qualified in civilian life, perhaps as a gunsmith, and then enlisted on a special engagement to make use of his skills.  There was a shortage of armourers during WW1 with supply not meeting demand and many older men were taken on in that role, including the extension or reengagement of time-served armourer sergeants with service going back two or more decades.

 

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was a shortage of armourers during WW1 with supply not meeting demand and many older men were taken on in that role, including the extension or reengagement of time-served armourer sergeants with service going back two or more decades.

 

As discussed on this recent thread

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

As discussed on this recent thread

 

Thank you Ken, that’s exactly what I was thinking about.  Peter35 is a friend with whom I have regular online contact and we’ve discussed it before in the past, although I’d not noticed that thread.  Ex AOC armourers allowed to reengage were usually permitted a rank close to that which they’d had before concluding their colour service and as this fellow Kirton is a private it makes me wonder if he was an example of the civilian gunsmiths that Peter mentioned.  I doubt that his service record will have survived though.

[GWF1967]

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 Ex AOC armourers allowed to reengage were usually permitted a rank close to that which they’d had before concluding their colour service and as this fellow Kirton is a private it makes me wonder if he was an example of the civilian gunsmiths that Peter mentioned.  I doubt that his service record will have survived though.

Many thanks to you both for your help.

 I can find not records at all for Mr Kirton; the link posted by @kenf48certainly helps to give an idea of his service. 

[SHJ]

16 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Great cards SHJ. 

 I recognised your Great Grandfather straight away as “one of mine” from my Kelham Hall thread. 

 I noticed you’d also added them to his listing on British Army Ancestors. 

 

Thanks GWF1967,  Yes, I like to add them to the various sites that commemorate when I can.   I think there's a book waiting to be written from that photo.  We need the Royal Engineer diaries to be transcribed and searchable...

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very evocative photos SHJ and poignant to see your forebear from the PPCLI.  The Royal Engineer subaltern looks a very fine fellow.  They were/are an elite corps, often having to prepare ground for the infantry assault and/or defence, and frequently among the very last to leave during a withdrawal.

 

Thanks FROGSMILE,  Harry Hugh was indeed a fine fellow - he got a battlefield commission so he peers and superiors thought so too!  He survived the war despite some serious injuries and made a successful building and estate agency business in London.  He died in May 1979 in his 92nd year.   I remember him coming to visit the family in the late 70's after we had moved to a new house to begin another whacky venture (turning an old Butchers shop into a Restaurant) and my father being visibly nervous about what his Grandfather would think about the house and project, and my father was not someone who suffered from apprehensions.  HH was a formidable man.

Edited 23 January , 2021 by SHJ
extra e

[SHJ]

12 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

These chaps got to Germany before him.  The man 7th from right is thinking of dinner.

"Some of the Old Contemptibles. - Note the mascot"  ???? Lager,  Photographie,  Gustrow I. "POW Camp"

That is fantastic!  If only we could magically add more pixels, and names.  I wonder if the swan survived.

[Peter35]

Re JOSEPH KIRTON, AOC.

 

Ex ‘Armourers Sergeants’ were always reengaged at their discharged rank (eg Armourer Sergeant Major).

 

This man might be a (non Gunsmith) from a trade such as Fitter; Hammerman; Engineer;  Weighing Machine Manufacturer; Mechanic; Machinist; Guage Maker; Instrument Maker etc who completed the “Special Test” for suitability for a course of instruction in Armourer’s duties”.

 

In the ensuing next few months they were required to successfully complete separate Courses in Machine Guns and Field Range Finders. Almost always, the Courses were in this order with the Rank shown on the former as “Probationer” and on the latter as “Armourer Probationer”.

[GWF1967]

13 minutes ago, Peter35 said:

Re JOSEPH KIRTON, AOC.

 

Ex ‘Armourers Sergeants’ were always reengaged at their discharged rank (eg Armourer Sergeant Major).

 

This man might be a (non Gunsmith) from a trade such as Fitter; Hammerman; Engineer;  Weighing Machine Manufacturer; Mechanic; Machinist; Guage Maker; Instrument Maker etc who completed the “Special Test” for suitability for a course of instruction in Armourer’s duties”.

 

In the ensuing next few months they were required to successfully complete separate Courses in Machine Guns and Field Range Finders. Almost always, the Courses were in this order with the Rank shown on the former as “Probationer” and on the latter as “Armourer Probationer”.

Many thanks for the information Peter35.

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, Peter35 said:

Re JOSEPH KIRTON, AOC.

 

Ex ‘Armourers Sergeants’ were always reengaged at their discharged rank (eg Armourer Sergeant Major).

 

This man might be a (non Gunsmith) from a trade such as Fitter; Hammerman; Engineer;  Weighing Machine Manufacturer; Mechanic; Machinist; Guage Maker; Instrument Maker etc who completed the “Special Test” for suitability for a course of instruction in Armourer’s duties”.

 

In the ensuing next few months they were required to successfully complete separate Courses in Machine Guns and Field Range Finders. Almost always, the Courses were in this order with the Rank shown on the former as “Probationer” and on the latter as “Armourer Probationer”.

 

Thank you Peter, very interesting, especially that men from suitable metal working trades were re-trained in order to find sensible use for their skills and experience.  It really brings home the highly pragmatic, all-hands-to-the-pumps attitude that increasingly prevailed, year-on-year, after conscription was introduced.

 

It seems a pity that we can't find out a bit more about Kirton as an example in case.  As he's wearing the badge in the photo he must presumably have been a Probationer Armourer at the time.

 

Best regards.....

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Dvr. Arthur John Hawkins. TS-9195, 40th Divisional Train A.S.C.  - Dvr/Transport Cpl. Herbert George Coe. T/18884, 3 Coy. 5th Divisional Train. A.S.C. 

[FROGSMILE]

Looks like a survivors photo taken relatively late in the war given the overseas service stripes and specially cut trousers for wearing without puttees, not to mention his best civilian boots (by the look of it).

Edited 23 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Spr. John Graves. 77588. Royal Engineers Signal Service.

 

Spr. Alexander Davidson Wiseman. T/2363 - 494596.   3/1st (479th) South Midland Field Company Royal Engineers.  Discharged. 22/10/17. SWB. No.324312.

 

Edited 9 February , 2021 by GWF1967