Postcards

[GWF1967]

Pte. Joseph Fisher. R/358404. Army Service Corps Remounts.

 

[GWF1967]

C.Q.M.S. Frederick Bolton. M2/033035. Army Service Corps.  " Sgt Fred Bolton 121, Longwood Road, Huddersfield, W/R Yorks  -  Dear Tania, Fred is a soldier now"

[Peter35]

GWF1967,

 

16 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

I can find not records at all for Mr Kirton; the link posted by @kenf48certainly helps to give an idea of his service

 

I’m sure I know the answer, but …..

 

Is there any chance this man’s surname could have an alternate spelling?

 

I ask because, in my experience, while not unusual to not find a man’s Service or Pension Records, it is very unusual not to find either a Service Medal and Award Rolls and / or Medal Rolls Index Card entry.

 

I’ve unsuccessfully searched both Kirton, and Kerton, and can’t find an (Armourer Sergeant) entry in either.

 

As Ken established in the thread he referenced, Recruiting Memorandum & A.O. - Documents - Requests and Offers - Great War Forum :

 

“ex men of the Corps” over 50 years couldn’t join

 

and

 

“all others” over 45 couldn’t join.

 

To my eye, the man looks to be pushing 45 / 50 years. Given the absence of those entries, my guess is that he failed either the Machine Guns or Field Range Finders Course and was discharged.

 

In such situations, men were offered the opportunity of serving in the AOC ‘proper’. However, I can’t recall an instance where a man didn’t choose to Discharge.

[SHJ]

From my Great, Great Grandmothers postcard collection, pre-war and a little faded: a Drill Sgt & Sgt Major from the 3rd Royal Scots Guards.

Edited 24 January , 2021 by SHJ
gah!

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, SHJ said:

From my Great, Great Grandmothers postcard collection, pre-war and a little faded: a Drill Sgt & Sgt Major from the 3rd Royal Scots Guards.

Interesting to see, there was only the most subtle difference between their dress.  The forage cap badges were a special issue made in silver, and expected to last for a set number of years.  The unit title was 3rd Battalion Scots Guards without the Royal.  The most senior line infantry regiment, was the Royal Scots, formerly the 1st Regiment of Foot, whose cap badge was similar in shape. 

[SHJ]

Gah!  I've done that before but I'll try not to do it again.  So, here's The Drums 3rd Scots Guards.  Same background as the previous.

[GWF1967]

7 hours ago, Peter35 said:

GWF1967,

 

 

I’m sure I know the answer, but …..

 

Is there any chance this man’s surname could have an alternate spelling?

 

I ask because, in my experience, while not unusual to not find a man’s Service or Pension Records, it is very unusual not to find either a Service Medal and Award Rolls and / or Medal Rolls Index Card entry.

I guessed he had home service only. 

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

From my Great, Great Grandmothers postcard collection, pre-war and a little faded: a Drill Sgt & Sgt Major from the 3rd Royal Scots Guards.

Very nice photo!

Interesting that one Colour Serg't is wearing QV crown & one King Edward's crown.

[SHJ]

There's a Joseph Kirton aged 27 in 1901 as a Chain Maker in Cradley, Worcestershire

 

 

and ten years later recorded as an Iron Chainmaker at the Iron & Anchor works

 

 

so if this is the same man - he would have been mid 40's by the end of the war.

 

Wowzers!

 

I just searched Cradley Iron works and lo & behold there's N. Hingley & Sons.  This firm built the Anchor for the Titanic (& the Lusitania, Mauritania and Olympic).   They paraded the Titanic anchor through the streets.   This Joseph Kirton almost certainly helped build those things.  

 

"The shank is a splendid forging, by hydraulic press, of wrought steel, 16 feet long, and weighing 6.5 tons, and the shake weighs half a ton.  Besides this there is an attachment of three links, hand forged in 6 inch iron, bringing up the weight in all to over 17 tons.... it is stated that the whole outfit, anchor, shake, and cable, will weigh 100 tons...The work of making the anchor was carried out under the superintendence of Mr. Osbourne, manager of the cable department."  Dudley Chronicle Sat 6the May 1911.  extract & image courtesy britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk

 

 

 

 

census images courtesy ancestry.com

Edited 24 January , 2021 by SHJ
more tidbits

[Muerrisch]

7 hours ago, SHJ said:

From my Great, Great Grandmothers postcard collection, pre-war and a little faded: a Drill Sgt & Sgt Major from the 3rd Royal Scots Guards.

SHJ: I can read the caption but see two colour sergeants although the collar lace might be non-standard for a CSgt at that time.  Please how do you know which is which, and why?

Edited 24 January , 2021 by Muerrisch
for colour read collar

[CorporalPunishment]

15 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Pte. Joseph Fisher. R/358404. Army Service Corps Remounts.

 

That's a great photo. As far as I can recall I have never seen any images of that cap badge being worn before.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

Assuming this is pre-1915 they both are dressed as Drill Sergeants.  The Drill Sergeants were at that time marked by the same arm badge of 3-chevrons with colour badge superimposed as that worn by a Colour Sergeant, but their tunics were laced as 1st Class, meaning a double band of gold lace on each cuff with the division marked by a dark blue ‘light’ revealing the facing colour, and collars completely covered with gold lace (on which their collar badges are set), as far back as where the shoulder straps are buttoned.  A Sergeant Major had a coat of arms badge on his mid upper arm and a fully fashioned 1st Class tunic, so I think that the second part of the caption must be an error.

 

NB.  From 1915 the Drill Sergeants were elevated to WO2 rank and their arm badge became the colour badge without the 3-stripes, as per the CSM and with the lacing previously described (see the colour images below).

 

 

Edited 24 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That's a great photo. As far as I can recall I have never seen any images of that cap badge being worn before.   Pete.

I was thinking the same thing Pete, it’s an extraordinarily rare image.

 

Edited 24 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Froggy thank you.

[SHJ]

17 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

SHJ: I can read the caption but see two colour sergeants although the collar lace might be non-standard for a CSgt at that time.  Please how do you know which is which, and why?

 

Hi Muerrisch,  I may be custodian of the postcard but I am definitely not a custodian of army insignia knowledge.  Thankfully Frogsmile has come to my rescue again and explained.  Is it odd is that the two men seem to have divested their belts?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

 Is it odd is that the two men seem to have divested their belts?

Yes, it is indeed unusual, they have clearly been caught during a moment of relaxation and been asked to stand together for an impromptu photo.  It is not a proper form of dress to wear tunic and sash without waist-belt and, as drill sergeant, sword and carriage.

 

The photo below demonstrates the correct dress, although it shows the Sergeant Major.  Notice that he wears a 1st Class tunic with the appropriate lace on collar and cuffs.

 

Edited 25 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

Thanks Frogsmile!   Here's another postcard from my collection, again presumably just pre-war, and this time of a Lancer (21st maybe?).  The various Scots Guards Postcards that I have inherited are all part of the mass-produced A&G Taylor "Reality Series" but this image is a personal photo turned Postcard - presumably on a Kodak camera or service.  This individual is most likely a relative or friend of the family but I don't know who.  It's a shame the image is so washed out.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it’s a pity the photo is so faded.  Given the close match in shade between his white gauntlets, hanging horse hair plume, and the plastron front on his tunic, it’s more likely that he is a private of the 17th (Duke of Cambridge’s Own) Lancers.  The 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers had a facing colour represented on their plastron front of French grey (a pale blue shade), which generally appeared as a slightly darker shade than white in B&W imagery.

 

Edited 25 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Chris Foster]

Had a little play, in photoshop

[SHJ]

Ooh nice job Chris. Thanks very much.  & thanks for the 17th over 21st reccomendation Frogsmile - I was tossing up between the two & I've now got another little research project to enjoy investing time in.

[Chris Foster]

My pleasure !

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

Ooh nice job Chris. Thanks very much.  & thanks for the 17th over 21st reccomendation Frogsmile - I was tossing up between the two & I've now got another little research project to enjoy investing time in.

 

The fact that he has his Lance with him suggests a barracks setting, if you can suggest a likely date I’ll try to see where the 17th were located.  They were often based in Ireland. 

Edited 25 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The fact that he has his Lance with him suggests a barracks setting, if you can suggest a likely date I’ll try to see where the 17th were located.  They were often based in Ireland. 

 

Unfortunately the reverse is blank but it does have a line down the centre (for message on left and address on the right) which I believe is a standard from 1902 onwards.   The Kodak pocket camera of 1903 enabled printing directly onto card (or you could use a service to do it).  

 

The images it was saved with in a large album were sundry Scots Guard, a group of Hospital Corps looking rather like Policemen and HMS Triumph....  The Scots Guards look to be early to mid 1900's (I found similar on eBay and some have postmarks ranging from 1903 to 1906).  HMS Triumph must be 1903 onwards.

 

There are a number of other clearly non-professional / Kodak created photo postcards that are unmarked and undated but some can be dated even though they are blank on reverse... there's the Roehampton Boys School football team (1905/6) and Roehampton Old Boys Football Team (1910/11) and my Great Grandfather as Groom & his best Best Man (1914).  Not particularly helpful :-) anywhere from 1902 onwards!

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, SHJ said:

 

Unfortunately the reverse is blank but it does have a line down the centre (for message on left and address on the right) which I believe is a standard from 1902 onwards.   The Kodak pocket camera of 1903 enabled printing directly onto card (or you could use a service to do it).  

 

The images it was saved with in a large album were sundry Scots Guard, a group of Hospital Corps looking rather like Policemen and HMS Triumph....  The Scots Guards look to be early to mid 1900's (I found similar on eBay and some have postmarks ranging from 1903 to 1906).  HMS Triumph must be 1903 onwards.

 

There are a number of other clearly non-professional / Kodak created photo postcards that are unmarked and undated but some can be dated even though they are blank on reverse... there's the Roehampton Boys School football team (1905/6) and Roehampton Old Boys Football Team (1910/11) and my Great Grandfather as Groom & his best Best Man (1914).  Not particularly helpful :-) anywhere from 1902 onwards!

From 1902 to 1905 the 17th Lancers were in Edinburgh’s cavalry barracks after returning from South Africa, and then went to India ending up In Sialkot by 1914.  The only other place you might find a 17th Lancer with his Lance would be in the cavalry ‘depot’ at Canterbury in Kent.  Ergo your photo is either Piershill Barracks, Edinburgh, or Canterbury.

 

 Piershill Barracks was considered outdated by 1902 and after much lobbying new cavalry blocks and stables were eventually built and ready for occupation at Redford Barracks by 1909.  The cavalry regiment stationed in Edinburgh had not long moved to Redford before WW1 started.

 

NB.  The doorway in your photo, with its decorative features in the top corners has the look of a church.  I wonder if he used his Lance to provide a marital arch at a military wedding.  It would probably have been the garrison church nearby Piershill.

 

Edited 25 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

On 23/01/2021 at 12:29, SHJ said:

That is fantastic!  If only we could magically add more pixels, and names.  I wonder if the swan survived.

The swan was just a juvenile, a youngster, I like to think Tommy Atkins would be too decent and honourable to cause it any harm. Anyway they all look reasonably well fed under the circumstances.   Pete.