Postcards

[Surreyguardsman]

A nice Studio postcard showing what I believe to be a member of The Royal Engineers serving with the 29th Division as evidenced by the Cap badge and buttons and the triangle badge of the Division on the upper sleeve. His Signals armband has been cut down and appears to be stitched directly onto the uniform. Having looked at the Divisional organization would I be correct in thinking that this Man is probably serving with the 1st London Divisional Signal Company or would the other Engineer components of the Division retained Signal sections also?

[FROGSMILE]

I think you’re correct that he’s from the Division’s dedicated RE Signals sub-unit.  He has a woven shoulder title that looks quite busy.  I’m not sure if it says 1st London Signals, or Signals Service RE.  At that time most RE Signals service was Div HQ level and above, including I think, discrete RA formation HQs.

Edited 2 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think you’re correct that he’s from the Division’s dedicated RE Signals sub-unit.  He has a woven shoulder title that looks quite busy.  I’m not sure if it says 1st London Signals, or Signals Service RE.

No clearer under a glass or with my efforts to enhance the image I'm afraid.

 

Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

No clearer under a glass or with my efforts to enhance the image I'm afraid.

 

Simon.

It has the ‘look’ of a woven variant of the lowermost of these two badges.

 

[Surreyguardsman]

Certainly fits the pattern and shape of what is visible in the photograph, thanks for showing the badges.

 

Simon.

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, Surreyguardsman said:

Certainly fits the pattern and shape of what is visible in the photograph, thanks for showing the badges.

 

Simon.

Yes, on reflection I suspect that all the regional Territorial Force Signal companies RE probably adopted that configuration of generic title after 1916.  It avoided the several rows previously used and reflected that after conscription a soldier could and often did, come from outside the unit’s nominal catchment area.

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Sent Postcard. K Company 1st Somerset Light Infantry, 1909.  

 

A dig at the recent pay reforms! 

 

[Toby Brayley]

An unsent postcard of a similar theme.

 

"Haldane Wins on Points"   "In memory of G Company's Guns & Pay 1910-11"  "Proficiency Pay, gone to  Sec of State for War, PAY HERE".

 

 A surprisingly blatant attack on "Haldane's" proficiency pay reforms. It might explain the complete lack of any unit insignia! Lots to decipher in this one. 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

A fascinating reflection of the soldiers feelings at the time.  Thank you for posting Toby.  I knew of the controversy over those reforms, but had not realised that such ‘mutinous’ photographs existed!

[Muerrisch]

Tinkering Round the Edges.

 

nb. This is a very complicated subject. Errors of fact may exist, and I would be glad to be corrected if appropriate references are supplied. The algorithm for Pay Wallahs to decide on a soldier's emoluments would grace a computer programmer's table. I have a copy somewhere. Clearly there was further tinkering c. 1910. I will have a look at the Pay Warrant 1913, my nearest date.

 

In April 1902 King Edward deemed it “expedient to increase the pay and emoluments of soldiers of Our Army”, granting an immediate 2d a day to make good any stoppages for upkeep of kit, washing, hair cutting etc to all but the newest and worst soldiers. That Army Order [66] announced a further rise to take place two years later, called ‘Service Pay’ which gave with one hand and took away with the other. An infantry soldier with at least two years’ service and of good conduct, with minimum musketry standard of  2^nd Class Shot and 3^rd Class Army Certificate of education was to receive an extra 6d, rising to 7d after five years’ service. At the same time, good conduct badges previously worth a penny a badge per day to a maximum of 6d  became unpaid but were still issued.

Service Pay was abolished to all but currently serving soldiers who claimed “reserved rights” by AO 231 of 1906. It was replaced by Proficiency Pay under a very complicated scheme. The daily rate of Class II was 3d for privates, and Class I was 6d for substantive NCOs. The minimum infantry qualifications were:

20 years old or more, Engagement of three years or more, have two years’ service, 3^rd Class certificate, 2^nd Class shot. Venereal disease or alcohol abuse disqualified completely.

A private could obtain Class I Proficiency Pay by becoming a marksman or 1^st Class shot.

 

HANSARD 21 Feb 1907.

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

 

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the effect of the recent orders is to abolish service pay as regards all men enlisted or altering their terms of service after 1st October last; and, if not, whether he will state under what warrant or order service pay continues to exist; whether, as regards soldiers enlisted before the 1st October, the effect of Army Order 231 has been to deprive any, and, if so, how many, men of service pay previously enjoyed; and whether he will state the total diminution of pay of privates under the recent orders.

MR. HALDANE

 

The effect of Army Order 231 of 1906 is to apply the new conditions to all men enlisting or entering into a new contract on or after the 1st October, 1906. Men serving before the 1st October, 1906, will retain service pay for the whole period of any contract into which they had entered before that date, their vested rights being thus scrupulously respected. Men not belonging to the cavalry, artillery, and infantry will not be eligible for service or proficiency pay from the date from which any new, contract into which they have been permitted to enter, subsequent to the 30th September, begins to run. The number at present affected is small and the reduction in emoluments cannot be carried out for a long period of years. It is not yet possible to state what will be the ultimate effect of the change. The rates of service pay in force when the new warrant was promulgated varied from 4d. to 7d. a day; the rates of proficiency pay are either 3d. or 6d. It is proposed to make the provision of the 3d. messing allowance to the recruit on enlistment instead of merely after six months a first charge on any savings under the new system which may accumulate.

 

*SIR CHARLES DILKE

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether there are any cases in respect of which neither service pay nor proficiency pay will exist.

MR. HALDANE

Proficiency pay is given only to men of the cavalry, artillery, and infantry, and will gradually replace service pay. Soldiers of the Royal Engineers, Army Service Corps, Army Ordnance Corps, Royal Army Medical Corps, and Army Veterinary Corps who receive Engineer and Corps pay, and certain other small groups like the Military Police, Army Pay Corps, etc., whose ordinary rate of pay already includes remuneration for technical qualification, are not eligible for proficiency pay, and only those will draw service pay who are entitled to it under contracts into which they entered before the 1st October, 1906.

Edited 5 January , 2021 by Muerrisch

[Pat Atkins]

I find the Edwardian army fascinating so thank you Toby for the (surprising) postcards and Muerrisch for the detailed info - my grandfather initially enlisted in June 1906 (2nd South Lancs, for 9 and 3), hence my particular interest. Interesting that, as Toby points out, there don't seem to be any identifying insignia visible in G Company! 

 

Cheers all, Pat

[SHJ]

 

From my own collection.  CEF 1914 probably the 11th Battalion and maybe the 4th Infantry Brigade.  Young, muddy and not very happy.

Edited 21 January , 2021 by SHJ
date and ownership clarification

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, SHJ said:

 

 

CEF probably the 11th Battalion and maybe the 4th Infantry Brigade.  Young, muddy and not very happy.

Perhaps Salisbury Plain, around Larkhill, where the first contingent of the CEF suffered greatly from heavy rainfall and newly constructed camps during their initial Winter in Britain.

It surprises me though that they have no insignia, and seem to still be wearing leather belts from indigenous Oliver equipment, so maybe it’s not Britain at all.  There are some CEF experts who post here regularly that may know.

 

Afternote:  I  only just noticed the studio marking bottom left that shows the location was “Durrington” (which was a camp near Larkhill) so my initial thoughts were correct.  See: https://www.google.com/amp/s/militaryandfamilyhistory.blog/2014/10/25/the-first-canadian-contingent-on-salisbury-plain/amp/

For general background see: http://www.wiltshireatwar.org.uk/story/how-military-camps-saved-some-wiltshire-villages-from-extinction/

After the Canadians left for France the Australians arrived to take their place and endured similar conditions.

Edited 6 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[SHJ]

Yes, I think this is an example of the muddy reception for the CEF at Salisbury.  2nd from the right has collar stitching / badge but then throws that advantage with a loose shoulder strap. 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, SHJ said:

Yes, I think this is an example of the muddy reception for the CEF at Salisbury.  2nd from the right has collar stitching / badge but then throws that advantage with a loose shoulder strap. 

Yes, he appears to have lost the button.  It’s very noticeable how ingenue they appear with their lopsided, or ill-fitting caps, just as so many young men were when first coming to terms with military life.

Edited 6 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Further to my briefing above on Proficiency Pay and the 1910 grumbling references on the postcards, I can find nothing in my collection of Army Orders, or in Hansard, or in the 1913 Pay Warrant to cause more disgruntlement than that occasioned in 1906 and 1907

[SHJ]

On 06/01/2021 at 14:13, FROGSMILE said:

It’s very noticeable how ingenue they appear with their lopsided, or ill-fitting caps, just as so many young men were when first coming to terms with military life.

 

East Surrey's.  I've posted this one before but I love how the young chaps seated left and right push the hat wearing to the limits.  I'd say from ingenue of the previous card to insouciance & braggadocio here.  Their lack of concern pales into insignificance though with Mrs Mop in the back row.

Edited 12 January , 2021 by SHJ
add reg detail

[squirrel]

I like the mix of the "old and bold" in the photograph. The seated NCO's and the chap standing on the right at the back look like they have "got some in". 

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, SHJ said:

 

I've posted this one before but I love how the young chaps seated left and right push the hat wearing to the limits.  I'd say from ingenue of the previous card to insouciance & braggadocio here.  Their lack of concern pales into insignificance though with Mrs Mop in the back row.

They have the look of a Service Battalion going by the mixed age groups and absence of Territorial shoulder titles.  Notice how the men stood down from duty have put on their shoes, canvas, PT as relaxed footwear, a common habit.  The Mrs Mop appears to be dressed in the music hall style of a Chimney Sweep.  Super photo, thank you for posting it.

Edited 6 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Great photo! I couldn't see any shoulder titles either. I notice black buttons on some of the men, they being at first glance East Surreys - would that perhaps suggest a Rifle battalion which hadn't yet been able to source uniformly black buttons? Not very well up on the East Surreys, if that's who they are, apart from 23rd Londons - another London battalion is also a possibility I guess, but one would need better knowledge (or, to be honest, Googling perseverance) than I to find out which rifle battalion was badged to which regiment...

 

Blimey - have we already discussed this (and no doubt, I made the same remark)? I can't recall. Also - what is the badge on this cheery Corporal?

 

Edited 6 January , 2021 by Pat Atkins

[Muerrisch]

first class scout, the second, smaller version.

[Pat Atkins]

Thank you. Now you say it, I can see the fleur-de-lys.

[FROGSMILE]

The buttons look too smooth to be black as the bugle horn and crown embossed on the bone gave a more textured appearance.  I think they’re probably brown leather.

[SHJ]

This chap at the back is either my Great GrandUncle David Owen Jenkins b 1888 Roehampton who joined the Transport ASC (I haven't yet traced is service details) or his brother Stanley William Jenkins Pte 31080 who joined the East Surrey's.  They both look very alike.

 

Here's a postcard of 31080 Stanley Jenkins East Surrey's 6th Battalion

 

I have a few postcards of Stanley with the East Surrey's 6th Battalion.  Here's another great group photo that was sent by his wife Lilliane Ann to my Great Grandmother to say that she'd got home safely after visiting them and that she had met Stan at the Station.  Sent on the 22 May 1916.  He must have been on leave and presumably gave her this postcard to send.  Stan is marked but he's easy to spot.  The faces and poses are a treat in this card too.  Some of those boys look very young indeed.

 

Here's another East Surrey's 6th Battalion postcard with Stanley centre back.  Some of the men are the same - I don't know if this picture is earlier or later.

 

and here's a postcard I found after Googling "East Surrey's 6th Battalion" and flicking through the images on the screen Stanley Jenkins popped out at me right above the number 1295.

 

David survived the war but Stanley was missing 8 May 1917 (eventually presumed dead) during the Battle of Arras.

Edited 15 January , 2021 by SHJ
adding battalion elements for searchers

[FROGSMILE]

David Owen Jenkins is certainly wearing a standard pattern, East Surrey cap badge, rather than ASC.

The 6th East Surrey’s hung on to their special black cap badge handed down by their antecedent rifle volunteers until an unsympathetic commanding officer arrived after WW1 who asked permission to adopt the standard badge in black.  Even that difference was eventually dropped, sadly.

 

Edited 6 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE