Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All, and Chris,

Well spotted!

I have scanned the NCO signal-wallah and one sees the crossed flags on red (?), quite clearly.

Note also his 15 Star Trio medal ribbons.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

It probably is red. If the regiment did not have a special colour of its own red was usually the default.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

I am glad the immediately post-Great War Frontier photo proved to be of interest.

Incidentally, H. R. Corbett came from the ranks of the MMG, raised in Calcutta, and secured an IARO commission in Egypt. Following demobilisation, he returned to the East India Railways (off-topic)  and served as an NCO in a Volunteer battalion...

I attach his medals for the GWF membership's general interest. Naming: BWM (LIEUT. H. R. CORBETT.); Victory (2.LIEUT. H. R. CORBETT.); IGS clasps Afgh NWF 1919 and Waziristan 1919-21 (LT. H. R. CORBETT, 2/69/PJBS.); Vol L. S.: (SGT. H. R. CORBETT, 2 BN. E. I. RY. R. (A.F.I.)...)

His Waziristan clasp was on the strength of Corbett's attachment to 5th Camel Corps, on secondment from 2-69 Punjabis.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[GWF1967]

T. R.F.A.  W. Lancashire.

T. R.F.A. City of London. 

T. R.F.A. group featuring Gnr. Ivan Ryman. 132527.  B. Gosport 1888.  Lived. Fulham. Overseas. 50th (Northumbrian) D.A.C. 

[Muerrisch]

Not a signal wallah .......... he is an assistant instructor.

 

I think the Naik or L/Naik next to the officer is also instructor qualified, but see no sign of any of the men badged as signallers on lower left sleeve. In a British unit I would be looking at 60% or so.

Is this a beginners' class or were Indian soldiers not to wear the crossed flags?

I will have a look at Clothing Regs India.

[Pat Atkins]

I'm really enjoying the Indian pics and Kim's related medals post: please keep 'em coming folks. Also very much enjoyed Kim's delightfully ambivalent "Dear all, and Toby" greeting! 

 

Cheers, Pat

[RNCVR]

Agree with Pat!  Love viewing the many & varied cards that have been posted on here, dont know much of anything concerning Indian Army so that has been a learning experience for me as well.

 

Best wishes to all!

Bryan

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and especially Bryan and Pat!

I am encouraged by your kind words, many thanks.

Indeed, I have always advocated Sharing the documents we have all gathered over the years. Therefore, here is a bit more regarding Capt Corbett, namely:-

1) after commissioning into the Indian Army Reserve of Officers (IARO), probably at Zeitoun, near Cairo, with detail of Corbett, and,

2) Temporary Capt. Corbett, together with his CO (probably Lt-Col Dunstan) and men of 2/69 Punjab Regt., on the NW Frontier, circa 1919/20...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[RNCVR]

What I pick up on with Sikh(?) units is the varieties & style of wearing of the OR's headwear\turbans, even within a single unit. There must have been some kind of standardization with these or am I reading something into it that I am only imagining?

 

In any event thanks for posting, hope you are staying safe in Germany!

Best.... Bryan.

 

PS - Love Capt Corbett's hairstyle!

Edited 13 November , 2020 by RNCVR

[Sepoy]

Here is a group of Indian Army Soldiers, probably taken in the UK, and including Gurkhas and or Garhwalis.

Sepoy

 

 

Edited 13 November , 2020 by Sepoy

[GWF1967]

I posted this group photograph previously, “Sergeants’ Mess, 7th R.W.F. Abergavenny 1909”, the man cropped from the group is C.Q.M.S. Frank Rogers. 105.   A. Coy  1/7th Royal Welsh Fusiliers.   He landed at Suvla on the 8th August 1915 and was presumed killed on the 10th.  

Frank’s home was almost directly opposite the War Memorial at Llanidloes that now bears his name. 

[FROGSMILE]

A super photo.  Notice how the Armourer Sergeant at far left has turned his arm to show his crossed hammer and pincers badge.  Unlike the regular battalions where the same appointment came from the AOC, they were directly recruited and regimentally badged in the TF.  See also that alongside the Bandmaster, seated far left, is a Bugle Major rather than Drum Major, thus reflecting the Rifle Volunteer origins of the battalion.  Alongside him is the only odd man out, seemingly a SNCO of the South Wales Borderers (?), who is likely there because for some reason he missed his own unit’s annual training camp and needed to qualify for his cash bounty.

Edited 14 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I think the front row, reading from our left, is QMS or RQMS, bandmaster, bugle major, three PSI [one a SWB] all musketry qualified, ARSM with campaign medals, next a big lad with sword and possibly three chevrons and crown who may be orderly room sergeant ...certainly in a senior position in the group, next two more PSIs, then a TF colour sergeant and two TF sergeants.

Amongst others there is a band sergeant, and we see the occasional SNCO proficiency 4-point star and annual efficiency lozenge badge. As the year is 1909 these  two latter VF badges had been officially dropped from use. Pity to spoil a sleeve and leave badge and stitch marks .......

[Toby Brayley]

"All that is left of 'em"

 

Postcard sent from Folkestone July 11 1914. Army Service Corps. 

of them"

[Gunner Hall]

On 13/11/2020 at 21:37, RNCVR said:

What I pick up on with Sikh(?) units is the varieties & style of wearing of the OR's headwear\turbans, even within a single unit. There must have been some kind of standardization with these or am I reading something into it that I am only imagining?

 

In any event thanks for posting, hope you are staying safe in Germany!

Best.... Bryan.

 

PS - Love Capt Corbett's hairstyle!

The 2/69th Punjab's were a class regiment, rather than a purely Sikh Regiment. Composed of 2 coy's of Jats, (Who also could be Sikh)  I coy of Punjabi Musselmans, and a company of Gadaria's. (Who are a caste of Sheep herders) So the pagri style would reflectthe religion of the wearer.  

 

Like you,  I'd spreviously potted that  Regiments of the Indian Army seemed to be populated with men wearing different headdress,  which both outraged and fascinated me in equal measure.   This is a lovely site which helps -  http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2013/turbans-of-the-indian-army

 

GH

[RNCVR]

Thanks GH, appreciate the link you have attached, will take some time to go thru it but very interesting from what I have read so far.

 

Best....Bryan

[Alan24]

Very pleased to have obtained this postcard today with a Winchester connection.

Each of these 5 RGA men has a different rank.

Taken at the Heavy Artillery Training Centre, Flowerdown, Winchester in Aug 1916. 

Men probably from the same RGA Heavy Battery. 

 

Little unsure unsure of the correct ranks, hoping someone will be able to put me right.

 

From left to right...

 

3 Stripes, Gun above (Battery Quartermaster Sergeant?)

3 stripes, Crown above Gun above Hammer & Pincers (Staff Sergeant Fitter?)

3 stripes, Crown above Gun (Staff Sergeant?) 

3 Stripes only (Sergeant)

Crown on sleeve (Battery Sergeant Major?) Long Service GC ribbon?

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Alan24

[Muerrisch]

Provided the date is correct [and particularly post- May 1915 and pre-1918]

 

3 Stripes, Gun above {Sergeant}

3 stripes, Crown above Gun above Hammer & Pincers :Staff sergeant fitter/armourer ...lots of trades  .....

3 stripes, Crown above Gun [Staff Sergeant, BQMS or similar level appointment]

3 Stripes only (Lance Sergeant)

Crown on sleeve WO Class II probably BSM or RQMS.

[FROGSMILE]

Agree with Herr Muerrisch except that in the early part of the war the crossed hammer and pincers for RGA trades referred to Metal Smith, Carriage Smith (various others) and I think Armaments Artificer.  I can’t recall what year, perhaps 1916, all the Smith trades were merged under the single title of Fitter.

 

I think that the sergeant without a gun badge is ASC.

Edited 20 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Even as I wrote I had my doubts. The sergeant with no gun badge has had me looking through pay warrants, establishments and my various notes. He may well be ASC. The use of gun/ no gun to distinguish full sergeant RA from Lsgt RA was certainly true post-war, and it is true that Great War Establishments and Pay Warrants do not allow for RA corporals to be paid extra as Lsgts  ..... or for Lsgt unpaid to be sanctioned.

However most arms felt the need to augment their paid sergeants with a number of corporals acting up with no extra pay, and a small number acting up with a little extra pay, and I see no reason why the RA might not have had unpaid ones but no paid ones. Neither Dawnay nor Campbell books seem to make any mention regarding the war years.

 

I will have a look at CWGC records to see if any LSgts RA died in the Great War .......... meantime I suspect that it will be a wild goose chase. My money is on ASC.

 

EDIT: found no LSgt RA dead in Great War.

Edited 20 November , 2020 by Muerrisch
clarification

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Even as I wrote I had my doubts. The sergeant with no gun badge has had me looking through pay warrants, establishments and my various notes. He may well be ASC. The use of gun/ no gun to distinguish full sergeant RA from Lsgt RA was certainly true post-war, and it is true that Great War Establishments and Pay Warrants do not allow for RA corporals to be paid extra as Lsgts  ..... or for Lsgt unpaid to be sanctioned.

However most arms felt the need to augment their paid sergeants with a number of corporals acting up with no extra pay, and a small number acting up with a little extra pay, and I see no reason why the RA might not have had unpaid ones but no paid ones. Neither Dawnay nor Campbell books seem to make any mention regarding the war years.

 

I will have a look at CWGC records to see if any LSgts RA died in the Great War .......... meantime I suspect that it will be a wild goose chase. My money is on ASC.

 

EDIT: found no LSgt RA dead in Great War.

He has an ASC shoulder title!

[Muerrisch]

That is fairly good evidence.

[Alan24]

Thank You Muerrisch and Frogsmile.

 

I can see the sergeant's A on the titles which does now appear not to be at the end. I'll look again in better light tomorrow.

 

'Flowerdown Nr. Winchester Aug 1916' is written on front and back in contemporary handwriting, this is consistent with the HBs being at Flowerdown so have no qualms about the date. 

 

Flowerdown being currently Sir John Moore Barracks ATR due to close in 2022.

 

Strangely the photographer is a London firm - NEWMAN, 117 Coldharbour Lane London. - This is Brixton/Herne Hill Area.

 

An number of HBs left for France at the end of August 1916, i.e. 164 HB to 171 HB (Not all may have been at Flowerdown) and I wonder if one of these were raised in London and invited local photographer to come down...?

 

Alternatively, they look experienced, could they be Depot Staff?

[Pat Atkins]

I thought the same re shoulder titles - can see an "A" but it appears to be in a central position, not initial. 

 

On a related theme, I am aware that a grenade above sergeant stripes was often worn by REs, which I've always attributed (rightly or wrongly) to a bit of swank; however, might there be a significance in terms of differentiating Sgt and Lance-Sgt do we think? In a similar manner as discussed here for RA NCOs?

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I thought the same re shoulder titles - can see an "A" but it appears to be in a central position, not initial. 

 

On a related theme, I am aware that a grenade above sergeant stripes was often worn by REs, which I've always attributed (rightly or wrongly) to a bit of swank; however, might there be a significance in terms of differentiating Sgt and Lance-Sgt do we think? In a similar manner as discussed here for RA NCOs?

Most certainly not “a bit of swank” Pat, but the arm badge created for RE in 1881, seemingly to bring them in line with the corps from which they were spawned at the Board of Ordnance (B^O), who had long had their gun.  I know of no official authority that stipulated RE Lance Sergeants not wearing the arm badge.  As they had the extra NCO position of second corporal (equivalent of Bombardier) as did the AOC, it might be that like the RA, there was no introduction of lance sergeant RE during WW1.

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[trbl_tommy]

6 hours ago, Alan24 said:

Very pleased to have obtained this postcard today with a Winchester connection.

Each of these 5 RGA men has a different rank.

Taken at the Heavy Artillery Training Centre, Flowerdown, Winchester in Aug 1916. 

Men probably from the same RGA Heavy Battery. 

 

Little unsure unsure of the correct ranks, hoping someone will be able to put me right.

 

From left to right...

 

3 Stripes, Gun above (Battery Quartermaster Sergeant?)

3 stripes, Crown above Gun above Hammer & Pincers (Staff Sergeant Fitter?)

3 stripes, Crown above Gun (Staff Sergeant?) 

3 Stripes only (Sergeant)

Crown on sleeve (Battery Sergeant Major?) Long Service GC ribbon?

 

interestingly, 2 men appear not to be wearing lanyards either, 2nd and 4th men from left, also is the sergeant (ASC?) with no gun badge (4th from left) a driver perhaps (has he got riding breeches on)