Postcards

[GWF1967]

A collection of items relating to Miss Mary De Grouchy Gwynne Howell, Llanellwedd Hall, Builth Wells, Radnorshire.  (Not sure how the Ivybank Hospital card fits in!)

V.A.D. Nurse 1914 -1918. Also organised/hosted the local sewing group and was a "Senior Companion of the Young Helpers League"  She is seated front row in picture 5 (double exposure).

 Sister to Lt.-Col Herbert Gwynne Howell. D.S.O. O.B.E. 1876 -1925, and also  Major - General Frederick Duke Gwynne Howell. C.B. D.S.O. M.C. 1881-1967

 

 

Edited 20 August , 2020 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

[Toby Brayley]

Unsent post card, taken somewhere hot! I believe this is an RE signals team. Note the Fly Fringes and the drivers leg irons worn on the inside leg to prevent the injury should the horses come together.  

 

Edited 21 August , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

 

 

 

She seems to have been quite a character and determined to do more than her bit, as per ‘noblesse oblige’.  Sadly rarely seen to the same degree nowadays.  Thank you for posting.  
 

One photo is a particularly good view of the British Red Cross pattern VAD (as opposed to St John) overcoat.  It’s interesting that the two institutions insisted on differing dress, with the former in blue and single breasted and the latter in black and double breasted.

Edited 21 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Unsent post card, taken somewhere hot! I believe this is an RE signals team. Note the Fly Fringes and the drivers leg irons worn on the inside leg to prevent the injury should the horses come together.  

 

Yes, they do look like a line laying team.  I read recently of RE ‘air line’ units that seemed to do something similar, but what the ‘air’ aspect was is unclear.

Edited 21 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[WhiteStarLine]

Air line is overhead telegraph wire- ie wires slung overhead between poles.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Air line is overhead telegraph wire- ie wires slung overhead between poles.

Thank you, I did wonder if it might be that.  Do you know if they were specialised units doing only that, or did they also gallop along doing ground line laying too?  I’d like to ascertain if they were entirely different units.

[squirrel]

Leg iron - worn by the no.3 driver to prevent his leg being crushed by the pole of the cart on tight turns.

[GWF1967]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you, I did wonder if it might be that.  Do you know if they were specialised units doing only that, or did they also gallop along doing ground line laying too?  I’d like to ascertain if they were entirely different units.

I’ve seen a photograph of an air line unit using a pole to lay cable from a cart along hedgerow tops. I’ll see if I can dig it out. 

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

I’ve seen a photograph of an air line unit using a pole to lay cable from a cart along hedgerow tops. I’ll see if I can dig it out. 

Yes, and it was a pole that was used for laying ground wire at pace too, that’s why I’m curious as to whether they were separate specialisms.

[Drew-1918]

What I presume to be members of the 47th London Division: 6th Bn. City of London Rifles, 8th Bn. Post Office Rifles, & 15th Bn. Civil Service Rifles, London Regiment. 

 

[Drew-1918]

I would be very grateful for any suggestions for the unit this man is with. The closest I could find was the 8th Rifle Brigade, who were with the 34th Division for a month or so mid-1918, but what about the shoulder title? I am a little confused. It could be the 17th London Regiment, but I cannot find any record of them being with this Division with the Army of the Rhine, or anything like that. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

What I presume to be members of the 47th London Division: 6th Bn. City of London Rifles, 8th Bn. Post Office Rifles, & 15th Bn. Civil Service Rifles, London Regiment. 

 

These men seem to be 2nd or 3rd Line I would wager.  There are no wound stripes (unusual in a group that size), or medal ribbons (although that’s not so significant), and they have a generally unblooded look about them.  Nevertheless, one of the men has the narrow pattern web waist belt that is less often seen early in the war.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Drew-1918 said:

I would be very grateful for any suggestions for the unit this man is with. The closest I could find was the 8th Rifle Brigade, who were with the 34th Division for a month or so mid-1918, but what about the shoulder title? I am a little confused. It could be the 17th London Regiment, but I cannot find any record of them being with this Division with the Army of the Rhine, or anything like that. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

 

I agree with you Chris that this is a real conundrum!  The cap badge and shoulder title matches best for the 17th London Regiment and as you have implied, they never served with the 34th Division.  Another badge and shoulder title that might’ve fit was the 7th (Robin Hood Rifles) Sherwood Foresters, but although 2/5th paid a fleeting visit the 7th never did.  The insignia is not right at all for the 8th RB.  Almost a dozen TF battalions did join for very short periods in the Summer of 1918, but never any from the London Regiment.  The 34th Division patch is indisputable though, so my best guess would be that he was a part of attached ‘details’ to the Division HQ.  Such roles had been taken over by Employment Companies of the Labour Corps officially since 1917, but there were still invariably a few odds and sods detached from their parent units, such as perhaps a favoured batman of a senior officer.  That seems to me to be the most likely rationale.  The fact that he’s wearing a specially tailored, non-standard jacket also fits with such a scenario.  A private (Rifleman) such as he would certainly not get away with wearing such a garment at regimental duty.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I *think* I’m correct in saying that 34th Div was disbanded in March 1919. This man is wearing BW&VM ribbons, so the photo would have been taken no earlier than about Feb 1919 and no later than March. That’s pretty early to be seeing both ribbons up. Again, that might suggest that he was close to authority in some way.

 

Alternatively, he could be wearing someone else’s......no, I won’t go there....!

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, headgardener said:

I *think* I’m correct in saying that 34th Div was disbanded in March 1919. This man is wearing BW&VM ribbons, so the photo would have been taken no earlier than about Feb 1919 and no later than March. That’s pretty early to be seeing both ribbons up. Again, that might suggest that he was close to authority in some way.

 

Alternatively, he could be wearing someone else’s......no, I won’t go there....!

The 34th Division was retitled (Northern?) and continued for some time as part of the BAOR, retaining the same sign, as it had essentially taken over the 34th Division’s entire equipment table. As such one could still see the famous chequerboard sign into the early 1920s.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Drew-1918]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

These men seem to be 2nd or 3rd Line I would wager.  There are no wound stripes (unusual in a group that size), or medal ribbons (although that’s not so significant), and they have a generally unblooded look about them.  Nevertheless, one of the men has the narrow pattern web waist belt that is less often seen early in the war.

 

That is an interesting thought. I had wondered if the style of the tiled floor looked a little bit ‘French’. That and the muddy boots and soft caps made me presume, for some reason, that it was the 47th Division. I see your point though. I cannot remember if it was a ‘Postcard’ or a Carte Postale. I will have to check but bear with me as it is back home in the UK.

I checked along the lines you were wondering, and the third lines of the 6th, 7th & 8th Bns. were not really in the same vicinity as the 3/15th Bn. The same seems to be true of the second lines- the 6th, 7th & 8th Bns. (2/1st London Div) in relation to the 2/15th Bn (2/2nd London Div). It is a bit hard to trace all their movements though, as I know you are aware. I suppose that does not mean friends from different units could not have met up somewhere. Perhaps though, what we see here is the first line just before embarking in 1917? With that in mind, perhaps a few of their smiles seem a bit strained?

[Drew-1918]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

I *think* I’m correct in saying that 34th Div was disbanded in March 1919. This man is wearing BW&VM ribbons, so the photo would have been taken no earlier than about Feb 1919 and no later than March. That’s pretty early to be seeing both ribbons up. Again, that might suggest that he was close to authority in some way.

 

Alternatively, he could be wearing someone else’s......no, I won’t go there....!

 

You made me think there. With such a short window of opportunity, why bother changing your cap badge if you were transferred? Who would object? I wonder if that is what happened- he was nominally transferred for a short period and thought he would pose with the new insignia and his ‘own’ badges, just for the novelty.

Even if it was for a longer amount of time, I have numerous books where such and such a soldier point blank refused to change his insignia because he was 'naffed off' about being moved from his unit. This may seem unlikely, but I have personal accounts and photographs that testify to it (perhaps more a territorial thing). 

Many thanks. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

That is an interesting thought. I had wondered if the style of the tiled floor looked a little bit ‘French’. That and the muddy boots and soft caps made me presume, for some reason, that it was the 47th Division. I see your point though. I cannot remember if it was a ‘Postcard’ or a Carte Postale. I will have to check but bear with me as it is back home in the UK.

I checked along the lines you were wondering, and the third lines of the 6th, 7th & 8th Bns. were not really in the same vicinity as the 3/15th Bn. The same seems to be true of the second lines- the 6th, 7th & 8th Bns. (2/1st London Div) in relation to the 2/15th Bn (2/2nd London Div). It is a bit hard to trace all their movements though, as I know you are aware. I suppose that does not mean friends from different units could not have met up somewhere. Perhaps though, what we see here is the first line just before embarking in 1917? With that in mind, perhaps a few of their smiles seem a bit strained?

Yes, it seems possible that it’s a pre-embarkation photo.

 

1 hour ago, Drew-1918 said:

 

You made me think there. With such a short window of opportunity, why bother changing your cap badge if you were transferred? Who would object? I wonder if that is what happened- he was nominally transferred for a short period and thought he would pose with the new insignia and his ‘own’ badges, just for the novelty.

Even if it was for a longer amount of time, I have numerous books where such and such a soldier point blank refused to change his insignia because he was 'naffed off' about being moved from his unit. This may seem unlikely, but I have personal accounts and photographs that testify to it (perhaps more a territorial thing). 

Many thanks. 

The visual evidence suggests he was not at regimental duty.

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Jerry B]

On 13/06/2020 at 22:43, Jerry B said:

Evan Andrew 4302, Pembroke yeomanry & later Welsh regiment, the group shot is next to the bridge over the towy at Llandeilo ( it is to his sister in Towyn).

 

 

 

 

 

FROGSMILE,

 

I was not sure, obviously RA in some form, TF makes sense

 

 

picked up two more pc's to him, sadly missed two others, though I did save the images

[FROGSMILE]

Super quality photos Jerry, it’s interesting to see the size of the sergeant’s cavalry arm badge, which appears to be cloth or bullion, and also that one of the men still has a coloured band around his forage cap.

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, Jerry B said:

 

 

picked up two more pc's to him, sadly missed two others, though I did save the images

 

I purchased the other two ( and saved images of your two cards!).

 I have another copy of card 1, its a different exposure and not so clear;  it was on my desk when I spotted the cards for sale online. I had recently shared them with relatives in Australia.

I have posted cards 3+4 previously (2019).

 

Edited 22 August , 2020 by GWF1967

[FROGSMILE]

Do we know if Evan Andrew survived?

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Do we know if Evan Andrew survived?

Yes. He worked as a farmhand in Eglwys Fach, Nr. Machynlleth before, and after the war. In 1924 he embarked at Liverpool bound for Quebec.

 

Edited 22 August , 2020 by GWF1967

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Yes. He worked as a farmhand in Eglwys Fach, Nr. Machynlleth before, and after the war. In 1924 he embarked at Liverpool bound for Quebec.

 

Like so many he turned for solace to the Old Commonwealth after the war then.  I wonder if his descendants in Canada know about the photos, or perhaps that’s where they came from....

Edited 22 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE