Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I was wondering about the less affluent - I know for certain that my grandfather's family were poor, yet his brother was in 23rd Londons for a couple of years before the outbreak of war. Given the requirements to pay for uniforms and headgear, a sympathetic County Association administration of funds would explain that, perhaps (he was D Coy 23rd Londons, based in Clapham).

I understand that the subscription model used changed over the period between 1859 and the advent of the Volunteer Force and the creation of the Territorial Force in 1908, by which time it had become akin to a largely middle-class (spanning lower to upper) working men’s club.  Men were paid an annual cash bounty for attending a minimum number of drill periods (some night and some weekend), plus an annual summer training camp.  By that stage I think that funding within the County Associations came from a range of sources, but the basic principle that the government only provided the arms, ammunition and personal equipment, and the Counties clothing remained extant.

[GWF1967]

2/14th London (2nd London Scottish),  "Sutton Veney, June 1916 - Just before going to France", 

Lt. John Stuart Monro  +  Capt/A-Maj. Adrian Blaikie.

Edited 1 October , 2020 by GWF1967
Spelling.

[GWF1967]

16th Division? A.S.C.  Belsize lorry. Bristol, April 1917. 

[Dragoon]

12 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

16th Division? A.S.C.  Belsize lorry. Bristol, April 1917. 

Nice photo.

1917? They're wearing collar badges?

I didn't think they wore them til the 20's?

 

Chris

[headgardener]

2 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Nice photo.

1917? They're wearing collar badges?

I didn't think they wore them til the 20's?

 

Chris

 

There are plenty of images of men (especially ASC) wearing collar dogs during WW1 - there's a thread on here about it, I contributed a lot of images to it. They are, of course, the exception rather than the rule. 

[GWF1967]

3 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Nice photo.

1917? They're wearing collar badges?

I didn't think they wore them til the 20's?

 

Chris

I should have included quotation marks “ Bristol, April 1917” is noted on the back of the photograph. 

 Three out of four are wearing collar dogs. 

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Nice photo.

1917? They're wearing collar badges?

I didn't think they wore them til the 20's?

 

Chris

As mentioned Chris, a number of battalions wore collar badges during WW1 as idiosyncrasies, but no regular battalions that I’ve ever discovered.  The ASC were quite keen early on, but again it was not Corps-wide.  It was in 1928 that the order was issued for collar badges to be worn throughout the army as standard.

[headgardener]

There were definitely worn by some regular units. The attached thread shows a lot of examples, most from unidentified battalions, but some are identified as regular units (2/W Yorks, 17 Lancers, RSG, S Lancs and maybe some others). I think the images that I posted start on p. 2 or 3.

 

[RNCVR]

That is a really nice photo  of the Lorry & its insignia GWF,  thanks for posting!

 

I understand the Broad WD Arrow, but what is the significance of the painted cloverleaf to the right of the Broad Arrow ?

 

Best wishes!

Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, headgardener said:

There were definitely worn by some regular units. The attached thread shows a lot of examples, most from unidentified battalions, but some are identified as regular units (2/W Yorks, 17 Lancers, RSG, S Lancs and maybe some others). I think the images that I posted start on p. 2 or 3.

 

Yes I remember that thread well but confess I had forgotten about those regular cavalry exceptions.  Having just looked again via your link I could see no regular infantry though, nor have I ever that I can recall. 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

That is a really nice photo  of the Lorry & its insignia GWF,  thanks for posting!

 

I understand the Broad WD Arrow, but what is the significance of the painted cloverleaf to the right of the Broad Arrow ?

 

Best wishes!

Bryan

GWF1967 was suggesting it might be the shamrock of 16th (Irish) Division, Bryan. 
Records seem to suggest that 16th Div only wore the shamrock on uniform and that on vehicles a large letter P with a trailing tail (meant to represent a superimposed LP) was painted on.

 

Edited 2 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I'm pretty sure there's a photo of a 1st or 2nd West Yorks bandsman serving in the BEF, and a S Lancs RSM who I *think* you remarked on as wearing the sort of tunic that you'd expect to see on a Regular. I'm remembering this off the top of my head and it was about 5 years ago, so don't sue me if I got any details wrong! 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, headgardener said:

I'm pretty sure there's a photo of a 1st or 2nd West Yorks bandsman serving in the BEF, and a S Lancs RSM who I *think* you remarked on as wearing the sort of tunic that you'd expect to see on a Regular. I'm remembering this off the top of my head and it was about 5 years ago, so don't sue me if I got any details wrong! 

I’d be interested to see with some proof.  As far as I’ve been able to ascertain to date the regular infantry followed the 1902 army order (AO) that collar badges were not to be worn on service dress.

Edited 2 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

The W Yorks bandsman is named on the reverse and gives his address as 2nd (or maybe 1st? - whatever I said it was on that thread) West Yorks, BEF. Clearly they're the exceptions, but they do occur. Some of the other images I posted can't be linked to specific battalions as they aren't named. There are certainly some TF and New Army battalions represented, and these would surely have been subject to the same AO, so the idea that at least a few regulars did wear them (maybe some bandsmen, like the W Yorks man?) can't be ruled out. 

And prewar officers wore them on SD, didn't they? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 02/10/2020 at 12:50, headgardener said:

The W Yorks bandsman is named on the reverse and gives his address as 2nd (or maybe 1st? - whatever I said it was on that thread) West Yorks, BEF. Clearly they're the exceptions, but they do occur. Some of the other images I posted can't be linked to specific battalions as they aren't named. There are certainly some TF and New Army battalions represented, and these would surely have been subject to the same AO, so the idea that at least a few regulars did wear them (maybe some bandsmen, like the W Yorks man?) can't be ruled out. 

And prewar officers wore them on SD, didn't they? 

You can’t conflate officers with ORs concerning SD.  Officers had been regulated to wear collar badges from the outset of that pattern of uniform, indeed special bronzed badges were devised and led to a whole new style of insignia. The army order of 1902 relates to other ranks and was I suspect a cost-saving departure from previous practice with the undress frocks, on which collar badges had been worn.  All I can say (repeat even) is that I’ve been looking a long time and have yet to find a proven photo of regular infantry wearing collar badges on drab SD before the general regulations changed.  If there ever were a departure then I would concede it as most likely being among bandsmen, who as front-of-house for their unit had a culture of adding some swank, but even then things had to be endorsed by the ‘band president’ a standard appointment in the officers’ mess (often the Bn 2i/c) and strictly overseen by commanding officers.  
 

The culture in regular battalions was simply different and individuals like the RSM and the Adjutant paid attention to dress and appearance and regulations to a whole different degree, looking down their noses at what they perceived as amateurs and Saturday night soldiers and their Boy Scout attitude to badges (unfair though that was in the midst of war). To them it fell under the military use of the expression ‘Tone’, and regular army attitude to that concept concerning standards of behaviour and presentation. You must remember this is the same regular army that between 1908 and 1916 made sure Territorial units had variant cap badges without battle honours earned by regulars.  As a result of this otherness photographic evidence has long shown that the practice of wearing collar badges in the infantry at least, seems to have been confined to service battalions and some TF, and so far I’ve not seen any proven evidence to contradict that.  I recognise that in most things there are contradictions, but this particular aspect is one where so far, I’ve not seen it to be the case.

 

NB.  The above does not apply to warrant officers wearing officer styled SD, the clue being the word officer, as they invariably then wore OSD collar badges just as an officer would, albeit usually on a closed collar.  Even then collar badges were often not worn by WOs during the war.

Edited 3 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

57 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

GWF1967 was suggesting it might be the shamrock of 16th (Irish) Division, Bryan. 
Records seem to suggest that 16th Div only wore the shamrock on uniform and that on vehicles a large letter P with a trailing tail (meant to represent a superimposed LP) was painted on.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation Froggie, much appreciated...

 

Best....Bryan

[headgardener]

Frogsmile - Thank you, as ever, for the very informative response! 

 

I just looked back through that old thread and see that the W Yorks man was a drummer with 2/W Yorks (photo half way down p.3, I think). 

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Frogsmile - Thank you, as ever, for the very informative response! 

 

I just looked back through that old thread and see that the W Yorks man was a drummer with 2/W Yorks (photo half way down p.3, I think). 

I had looked three times previously for ‘bandsman’.  In fact he’s a drummer and not a part of the band.  Secondly you stated in your then post that the photo of him was taken in Britain before he went to France and joined 2 West York’s.  That suggests he was coming from either a Training Reserve unit and then passed on via an infantry base depot, or was with a Special Reserve battalion.  He was not in a regular battalion until he arrived with the 2nd Battalion.  This is not a mere academic matter, you have to arrive with and be processed by a regular battalion before you are in it and observing its uniform code.  I stand by my earlier comments.

Edited 2 October , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

There are plenty of images of men (especially ASC) wearing collar dogs during WW1 - there's a thread on here about it, I contributed a lot of images to it. They are, of course, the exception rather than the rule. 

Thank you chaps, every day is a school day!

Chris 

[GWF1967]

Walter Robert Starsmeare

 

B.1870, Battersea.   Enlisted. 1891.   South Africa. 1899-1902.  Wheeler Staff Sergeant. 9779. 6 Coy. A.S.C.   M. Elizabeth A. Hearn, 1903. Colchester.   

 Disch. Time expired. 1912. 18th Coy. (Twelve Pence/Day).

 

Enl. 5/10/1914. Driver. T1SR/1191. A.S.C.    Promoted. 7/10/14. Wheeler Staff Sergeant.   Promoted. 16/11/14. Wheeler Quarter Master Sergeant.   France. 2/8/15 - 20/9/18. 

 Discharged. No longer physically fit. 10/12/18.   S.W.B. No.B58515.   

D. 1958. Ealing.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 02/10/2020 at 12:20, RNCVR said:

I understand the Broad WD Arrow, but what is the significance of the painted cloverleaf to the right of the Broad Arrow ?

Rather than a clover or shamrock, might it be the Ace of Clubs?

ASC companies often picked playing card suits as symbols.

It's not a perfect representation I know, clubs usually have stems.

And having said that, I can't find an Ace of Clubs in Michael Young's list of ASC Unit signs in his book.

But the list is incomplete.

But the others are there; Ace of Spades - 1013, Ace of Hearts - 1017,  Ace of Diamonds - 1054.

 

 

[MikeyH]

Not a postcard, but found this appealing large photo portrait of this raffish character in a local antiques centre.

He is a member of the Gloucestershire Regiment, and a cap badge, possibly the one in the photo

has been attached to the frame.  (sorry about the reflection).

 

Mike.

[headgardener]

The angle at which the photo was taken doesn't really do him justice. 

 

The fact he's wearing a shirt and tie under his greatcoat almost certainly indicates that he's wearing hospital blues underneath. 

[GWF1967]

"J. McHugh. M.T. A.S.C." sat on kitbag.

 Photograph by Kenneth Nicol & Co. 58 Pall Mall. S.W.

[GWF1967]

A postcard, and a small photograph, showing members of 31st Motor Ambulance Convoy. 705 Coy. M.T. A.S.C.