Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 8 July , 2019 Share Posted 8 July , 2019 (edited) On 04/05/2019 at 18:18, themonsstar said: 8th (National Reserve) battalion Manchester Regiment Unknown Pioneer Battalion Sorry for the belated response (and I don't know if anyone has posted since your post in May), but this image is taken from the end of Queen Alexandra Dock in Cardiff, looking across at Penarth. Those cliffs and the church (St. Augustine's) on the skyline are a dead giveaway. View As is Penarth Custom House (behind furthest right hand lamp post, and Penarth pier (above second capstan from left). Not a view you can get in its entirety today, as Cardiff Bay barrage will obscure a fair bit of foreground. Google Streetview Edited 8 July , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 8 July , 2019 Share Posted 8 July , 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: I see that both patterns of the cap badge are being worn there, very interesting. Pete. Thank you, good spot, can that narrow down a date at all? Regards Edited 8 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 9 July , 2019 Share Posted 9 July , 2019 13 hours ago, Toby Brayley said: Thank you, good spot, can that narrow down a date at all? Regards To be honest I've never figured out which of the two patterns was introduced first. John Gaylor, in his book "Military Badge Collecting", seems to think that the version with "Artists" on the title scroll was the first pattern but I take a lot of what he said with a pinch of salt. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Brayley Posted 9 July , 2019 Share Posted 9 July , 2019 That's a shame, it's fairly generic in terms of uniform, thank you though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) I picked up these three postcards, the other day for a derisory total of 30p. Sad that so little value is attached to such things. Under a loupe, the cap badge on the first image of the sergeant is a Maltese cross surrounded by a wreath and topped with a crown, Rifle Regiment would be my guess. Image two of the young man, can not make out the cap badge, what is the badge above his top tunic pocket? Image three, the sergeant has a very confident officer like pose, the original is faded, again difficult to discern the cap badge. The first card has a pencilled notation 'Somewhere in France', and the photographer worked for R.Guilleminaot, Boespflug et Cie. - Paris. The second by 'Gales Studios Ltd', Branch 54, Market Street. Manchester. These two could be from the same family source, as both have similar paper adhesive tape applied to both edges of the reverse of the card. The rear of number three is blank. Mike. Edited 17 July , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, MikeyH said: I picked up these three postcards, the other day for a derisory total of 30p. Sad that so little value is attached to such things. Under a loupe, the cap badge on the first image of the sergeant is a Maltese cross surrounded by a wreath and topped with a crown, Rifle Regiment would be my guess. Image two of the young man, can not make out the cap badge, what is the badge above his top tunic pocket? Image three, the sergeant has a very officer like pose, the original is faded, again difficult to discern the cap badge. Mike. Image one certainly shows a rifles style cap badge, but probably TF rather than regular given the absence of black rifles buttons. There are a number of possibilities, including the Robin Hood Rifles (parent regiment Sherwood Foresters), the Leeds Rifles (parent regiment West York’s) and a number of battalions within the overarching ‘London Regiment’, that had similar badges. Image two seems to show a very young soldier of a TF unit. The badge above his pocket being the Imperial Service Tablet, which was issued/awarded to those TF soldiers, all of whom were legally obligated for Home Defence only, that volunteered for overseas service too. Those that did went into First Line TF unit’s and those that didn’t went into Second Line unit’s of the same cap badge. I can’t quite make out the badge on my phone screen, but it is reminiscent of the Inns of Court OTC. Image three shows a staff sergeant, a senior NCO rank, wearing a non-standard jacket, probably in drab khaki, of a type that became popular after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902. Its wear suggests a TF soldier, whose uniforms were less regulated than those of the regular army at the beginning of the war, because they were issued under the auspices of the Territorial County Associations. Staff Sergeants were the most senior of the NCOs with only warrant officers ranking above them among enlisted men. They tended to have specialised roles. I cannot make out his cap badge. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Just to add that there was a rank between the colour or staff sergeants and the warrant officers. This was quartermaster sergeant. Frogsmile certainly knows that but newcomers may not. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Muerrisch said: Just to add that there was a rank between the colour or staff sergeants and the warrant officers. This was quartermaster sergeant. Frogsmile certainly knows that but newcomers may not. Just for the record. Yes, but I was relating to the ‘collective’ term staff sergeants, as at pre-1915, which included the QMS within the First Class, leaving just the lone warrant officer as sergeant major of battalion above those ‘staff sergeants’. It’s always a little tricky explaining this to newcomers to the subjects of rank and appointment. It wasn’t until 1915 that things changed with the advent of a second class of warrant officer effectively subsuming the First Class staff sergeants across All Arms of the Army. Edited 16 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Muerrisch and FROGSMILE, Many thanks for your very interesting input. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 My money is on the top photo being 19th Londons (St. Pancras). The lack of a tablet below the crown and the slenderness of the wreath mark it out for me. I think the second photo could be 17th Londons (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and the third one Bedfordshire Regiment. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: My money is on the top photo being 19th Londons (St. Pancras). The lack of a tablet below the crown and the slenderness of the wreath mark it out for me. I think the second photo could be 17th Londons (Poplar and Stepney Rifles) and the third one Bedfordshire Regiment. Pete. Examining the staff sergeant in enlarged form on my phone, Pete, I can see why you think Bedford’s, and I cannot demure. Looking again at his jacket I can see now that it appears to be a retro tailored 02 pattern jacket with new pockets added to chest and skirt. It seems to be late in the war, 1918+ and he has at least 3 overseas service stripes on his right cuff and a 1914/15 star medal ribbon above his left breast pocket. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Examining the staff sergeant in enlarged form on my phone, Pete, I can see why you think Bedford’s, and I cannot demure. Looking again at his jacket I can see now that it appears to be a retro tailored 02 pattern jacket with new pockets added to chest and skirt. It seems to be late in the war, 1918+ and he has at least 3 overseas service stripes on his right cuff and a 1914/15 star medal ribbon above his left breast pocket. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the corporal in the first photo but the contrast in appearance between him and the staff sergeant could hardly be greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: I mean absolutely no disrespect to the corporal in the first photo but the contrast in appearance between him and the staff sergeant could hardly be greater. I agree Pete, but the staff sergeant is clearly on home turf, whereas the corporal is, I’m fairly sure, in F&F. The backdrop and chair, etc. are familiar to me from a now world-famous set of glass plate images found in a trunk in an attic that had belonged to the amateur photographer (that is still in the family) some years ago now. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Photo 2 100% Inns of Court OTC. Only 30p, wow! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: I agree Pete, but the staff sergeant is clearly on home turf, whereas the corporal is, I’m fairly sure, in F&F. The backdrop and chair, etc. are familiar to me from a now world-famous set of glass plate images found in a trunk in an attic that had belonged to the amateur photographer (that is still in the family) some years ago now. I know, I know, unfair comment really, just being flippant. Anyway, judging from the look the staff sergeant is getting, he might have been safer in F&F himself!!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 15 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: I know, I know, unfair comment really, just being flippant. Anyway, judging from the look the staff sergeant is getting, he might have been safer in F&F himself!!!. That’s very true, I don’t think he’s going to score that’s for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 43 minutes ago, Dragoon said: Photo 2 100% Inns of Court OTC. Only 30p, wow! Chris Chris, I always thought the Inns of Court OTC wore black buttons. Maybe I'm finally succumbing to old age. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 37 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: Chris, I always thought the Inns of Court OTC wore black buttons. Maybe I'm finally succumbing to old age. Pete. That's very true Pete, maybe I'm wrong about I of C , maybe my succumbing to old age! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) Non-regular rifles battalions were not always able to get stocks of black buttons. Photos showing gm GS buttons are fairly common. There is a good mixture on show here: http://www.ww1photos.com/OTC.html. That said, after a longer squint I don’t think it is Inns of Court now. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 What we need is input from B&CMBF London expert "Jelly Terror" but he appears to have gone to ground. Shame really because he knows his stuff. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 July , 2019 Share Posted 16 July , 2019 6 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: What we need is input from B&CMBF London expert "Jelly Terror" but he appears to have gone to ground. Shame really because he knows his stuff. Pete. Yes, I know of him Pete. I post there as Toby Purcell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1418 Posted 16 July , 2019 Share Posted 16 July , 2019 12 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: I mean absolutely no disrespect to the corporal in the first photo but the contrast in appearance between him and the staff sergeant could hardly be greater. Hi I’m seeing at three stripes and not two in the first image. He does have the loom of just finishing a hard day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 July , 2019 Share Posted 16 July , 2019 25 minutes ago, Dave1418 said: Hi I’m seeing at three stripes and not two in the first image. He does have the loom of just finishing a hard day Yes, you’re right Dave, looking in an enlarged view on my phone he does have 3-stripes, so he’s a sergeant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 16 July , 2019 Share Posted 16 July , 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I agree Pete, but the staff sergeant is clearly on home turf, whereas the corporal is, I’m fairly sure, in F&F. The backdrop and chair, etc. are familiar to me from a now world-famous set of glass plate images found in a trunk in an attic that had belonged to the amateur photographer (that is still in the family) some years ago now. See my edited OP #6805 for photographer detail. Mike. Edited 16 July , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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