ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Geoff S]

Michael,

“Stonkered” is an old Australian slang word - not used really anymore, but I know many of the Aussies on the forum would understand its meaning. It means to exterminate, kill or strike-out.

A great example appears in 'To the Last Ridge' by Walter Downing in 1920, considered by many a brilliant book about Aussie experiences in France. The author also wrote a book of Australian slang in 1919, called 'Digger Dialects.

"Back to the line tommorow. We just go into the line again & again till we get knocked. We'll never get out of this. Just in & out, in and out, & somebody stonkered every time"

The word “stonker” is bit like the word “stoush” – which means: to fight, or a fight. It is really only used by older people in the country areas of Australia, whereas the word “stonker” or ‘stonkered” has pretty much become extinct in the Australian dialect.

But, back to the Dardanelles . . .

Michael is correct in his assertion that the damage to the Anzac sector is as a result of failings in Australian politics. I know ‘Max’ is mad, but I think Australians historical disposition or tradition of plain speaking, might all allow our Moderator ‘chooms’ a degree of flexibility on this topic. It is a terrible tragedy that has enabled the works to have been completed in such a manner.

I think the last article posted by Bill indicates the government is aware, belated of the issue, & will ensure that they do not repeat the same mistakes elsewhere on the Peninsula. Or at that is at least what I hope!

Cheers

Geoff S

[michaeldr]

Geoff,

Many thanks for the tutorial

I certainly agree with your last couple of lines

and I dearly hope that lessons have indeed been learnt by this episode;

Lessons which will not be forgotten elsewhere at Gallipoli

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Auimfo]

Hmmm....seems I must have been sailing far too close to the wind. My last 'soap box' post was edited (which doesn't really surprise me) but luckily the mod did a reasonable job and still managed to keep the point I was trying to make.

It is a difficult subject to discuss within forum rules because so much surrounds current political failings.

Thanks for the photos Bill. Although depressing it's good to be kept up to date.

Tim L.

[Andrew P]

Thanks for the reminder Max. Unfortunately with this event it's hard to seperate modern politics from what is currently happening.

On radio this morning John Howard said that he was aware bones have been disturbed and dug up, but he stressed that no war graves have been touched.

I guess he only considers those that have a headstone a war grave.

[Geoff S]

FYI- latest information published in the SMH today.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Long-r...3676649407.html

Cheers

Geoff S

Apologies to the 'Heads' regarding reference in the article to Australian domestic politics.

[Geoff S]

Has commonsense prevailed at last.- No Great wall of Gallipoli.

But I wonder what is going to hold that soil in place now that is has been removed from hill for the road? - NOTHING.

I hope it doesn't rain too hard,,or we might loose that road after all!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...5E29277,00.html

Cheers

Geoff S

[Eceabat]

I must say that this wall issue is a bit beyond me. The Australians are asking for all work on the wall being constructed to be halted as it will have a negative impact on the significance and heritage of the site (as if everything that has gone before has not).

However, as of the weekend, the only wall that was being built was a low retaining wall of about one metre along the base of the newly created cliffs. What is more, all but about 20 centimetres of this wall was below ground level. If forum readers look at one of the photos I posted a few days ago, the one giving a wide view of the road, they can see the trench in which the wall is being built. In the top part of the photo, as the road approaches Hell Spit, there is a view of a completed part of the wall.

Frankly, I think that this wall, if it is the one in question, is the least of the problems that have been inflicted on the area.

Of course, there may be another wall in the pipeline but I haven’t heard about it in my conversations with either contractors on the site or Turkish officials. The last word I had from the Head of Turkey’s National Parks Authority was that the cliff faces were to be covered with vegetation.

If anyone has got any more information on this I’d love to hear it.

Cheers

Bill

[michaeldr]

Geoff,

Thanks for those press reports

The wall does not, at least at first, sound like a good idea

However the problem which you point out is very real

Every winter’s rains bring with them soil erosion and land slip

Planting forestry cover has been tried for a generation or more now

But I fear that in the end the solution will have more to do with civil engineering than with nature

The ossuary sounds like a good idea, and since it is most unlikely that the nationality of the bones can be identified, then it should present a good opportunity for a multinational memorial, inclusive and representing all combatant nations; a nice touch for the 90th anniversary.

This thread has prompted me to check up again on my grandfather’s battalion [Nelson, RND] who were at Anzac from 29 April till 13 May. They lost six officers and 49 other ranks, with 150 wounded. 1 is on Lemnos, 5 in Egypt, 7 were buried at sea, 2 are in Beach Cemetery and 1 is in Shrapnel Valley Cemetery. The other 39 have no known grave and are remembered on the Helles Memorial.

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Eceabat]

Michael,

Just a point with the ossuary, which is not a bad idea I agree, but the Australian Prime Minister specified in his comments in the media that it was for "ANZAC bones". As you say, the nationality of most of the human remains that turn up on the Peninsula cannot be positively identified.

From the time I first visited the Peninsula, a matter of 17 years ago, when asked, CWGC officials said that it was best to bury any remains were they were found. Such is the policy followed by the local gardening staff as well.

While the proposed ossuary is sound if intended to house all remains, if it only intended to house "ANZAC bones" (and here I assume John Howard meant allied remains) I am not sure how it would work. Also the Turks might not be pleased with the thought that the remains of their fallen were intermingled with those of the allies.

Dare I say that the idea of an ossuary for ANZAC bones might sound good to the public at this time of controversy.

Bill

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for your clarification on that Bill

I had not picked-up-on the exclusive Australian/ANZAC nature of the ossuary.

You are probably correct that it might sound right at home during this ‘time of controversy.’ However I venture to say that if this line is indeed followed, then the politicians will have passed-up an opportunity to promote international goodwill.

Having dropped the Turks in it, so to speak, by requesting the road works in the first place, then I would have thought that a friendly gesture from Canberra would not have gone amiss. [The Pomms probably wouldn’t mind being remembered either!]

With best regards

Michael D.R.

[Mat McLachlan]

It seems to me that the most effective thing that can be done at Gallipoli is to leave the place alone. It's all this talk of improving facilities for visitors, building ossuaries for any bones we may find, etc, that is causing all the problems. The Gallipoli battlefield has been well preserved for 90 years with an appropriate level of maintenance, so I'm at a loss to understand why we suddenly need to embark on a frenzy of construction. Gallipoli stands as a monument to the 1915 battles because of the lack of development that has occurred there.

Cheers,

Mat

[Auimfo]

I'm with Mat on this one. What attracted people to Gallipoli in the first place was it's sense of remoteness and it's untouched appearance.

I can't abide by any construction work except perhaps some continual maintainance on the road that 'was' there. The whole area is a gravesite, not just the designated areas.

After saying that however, we must accept the reality that the construction works have already been done and since there is now little more we can do to rectify this I suppose an ossuary wouldn't be a bad idea. An offer to be a part should be made to all combatant nations to make the ossuary an international one however if this causes upset with any particular culture then we should at least make it 'Allied'.

-----edited-----

Tim L.

[Geoff S]

Bill,

I heard you on ABC Radio in Sydney this afternoon. I am glad to see the media are starting to pick up on the story. The closer we get to Anzac Day, the more the media will be looking for ‘Gallipoli’ stories. It is fortunate that you are in a position in Turkey to inform the Australian public of the damage that has been allowed to occur at Anzac.

It is distressing future generations of young (or old) Australians & New Zealanders will not get the opportunity to climb that first hill, like I did almost thirteen years ago. -climbing that hill from the beach is an emotional experience. I have read many books about the campaign at Anzac, but they cannot convey that feeling- Not even C.E.W.B. It was like walking in the footsteps of history (its something I will never forget.) It deplorable that our generation, will forever have scarred that path- wall or no wall.

Cheers

Geoff S

[Mat McLachlan]

Well said Geoff. I first visited Gallipoli in 2003 and spent the first day there following in the footsteps of the 10th Battalion from the beach to the Second Ridge. It's a tragedy that this opportunity is now lost to visitors, although I'm sure future generations will be comforted by the thought that they can now park their car much closer to the action (ie: right on top of it).

Bill, thanks for the great work you are doing in exposing this important issue.

Mat

[Andrew P]

Article in today's Melbourne Age by Ross McMullin.

The following passage from it may be of interest.

"It is little known in Australia that a comprehensive heritage survey of Gallipoli already exists. Commissioned by the Turkish Government, its detailed findings were published in two volumes in 1997. It might well be what the Turks really think should happen ---edited----. What the report said about the Anzac battlefields is this: "The area should be delimited and its entrances well defined, and controlled. The integrity of existing graves and monuments (both Turkish and Commonwealth) should be secured and through traffic of visitors and the local population eliminated from the area. Also, visitors should not be allowed into the battlefields in buses, automobiles or motorcycles."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Opinion/John...3854197717.html

[Bryn]

Thanks for the link to that article, Andrew. Well written and puts the responsibility for the shambles squarely where it belongs. Those who are happy to always grab the glory shouldn't be able to just duck the blame.

[Geoff S]

Thanks Andrew- One of the best reports on this issue I have read.

I agree with Bryn's comment. And, I think that it indicates the Australian media are beginning to realise what has occurred.

Cheers

Geoff S

[Andrew P]

I'm hoping the media keep pressing this issue and don't forget about it after Anzac Day. I'm pretty sure Parliament doesn't sit again till mid May so it needs to be kept in the spotlight.

Another article that may be of interest by Dennis Glover who is an honorary visiting research fellow in the school of social sciences at La Trobe University.

---edited--- I haven't got time to edit someone elses article.

[Auimfo]

Well said! - even if Denis Glover's political bias does lean towards the opposition.

Tim L.

[Andrew P]

Here's another article by Alan Ramsey of the Sydney Morning Herald

----edited-----

[michaeldr]

Quote : Today, 04:53 AM Post #193

---edited--- I haven't got time to edit someone elses article.

Quote : Today, 08:54 AM Post #195

Here's another article by Alan Ramsey of the Sydney Morning Herald

----edited-----

Moderators – What the devil’s going on here?

Can we please regain a sense of proportion

And take a break from this over–kill

……………………………………………………………………………

Andrew,

If it’s not too much bother, can you please e-mail me with the links which someone has deleted from your last posts

Many thanks

Michael D.R.

[Ozzie]

Okay, I gathered that this is a non political forum. I must say though, that given the topic, it is entwined with politics and discussions can not take place about this issue with out mentioning the politics involved.

In Australia, if we were to see a politician walking down the street, we could walk up to them and say Good day, and by the way, I do / don't agree with your policy for these reasons etc. This is freedom to express our views and the nature of plain talking that we have here in Australia. No one is allowed to be above criticism.

I don't know what your rules are regarding talking about or to politicians in your countries but here it is an accepted right that we can discuss openly and speak to politicians. So, forgive us if the Anzac Cove topic, something which means a hell of a lot to Australians, or most of anyway, gets us fired up, it is part of our heritage and something that needs to be addressed.

And all I can add to this is, May all those involved in this debarcle at Gallipoli , hand their heads and weep in shame, be they politician or public servant.

[Max]

Moderators – What the devil’s going on here?

Can we please regain a sense of proportion

And take a break from this over–kill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please read my previous postings on the matter.

Andy

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

The more I look at this, it has changed my View on the road and car park upgrade.

Is there any more damage they can do before ANZAC day? maybe an Airstrip and Mc Donald's burger bar what next?

[Bryn]

Well said, Ozzie.

I even helped one well-known Queensland politician to get his broken-down car going again when I came across him stranded in the outback, then had a few drinks with him in the next town. Still didn't agree with his policies, or vote for him though. This was 20 years ago, so I hope isn't regarded as 'contemporary'.

Andrew P, I'd like to get those links that were deleted from your posts as well.