ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Guest CGI]

Tim auimfo,

A few remarks :

1. Yes indeed, let's all hope the fruitless discussion about the location of Anzac Cove is now finally over and peace can return. Whether it helped is not certain.

2. I liked the comparison you made about the Australian cover-up attempts : "It's like saying "Elevators and a tourist cafe have been installed inside the Great Pyramid but we've saved the mummies from any damage."

This is not entirely correct though. It should read :

"Elevators and a tourist cafe have been installed inside the Great Pyramid... Mummies? What mummies? I'll install a commission that can then prove there never were any mummies."

3. I do not know whether the Aussie Government's focus on graves and bodies is a sign of naivity. If you ask me, it was rather a very welcome way out of an unpleasant situation in the hope to steer public opninion in a less harmful direction. Let's face it : It's clear a letter was sent by the Aussie Ministry for Vet Affairs, asking for roadworks. Nor De-Anne Kelly nor Prime Minister Howard want to say what exactly was in the letter. Ok, perhaps their good right, but if the contents were completely harmless to their position, why not do it?

There is something else though : think of the Turkish minister who got the letter. At this moment Turkey is being blamed in the international press for not showing enough care for historical heritage. What could be easier for him than to use the contents of the letter to his own defence and put the blame on the Aussies themselves.

But he doesn't. None of the two parties want to communicate any details. Is this naivity? Or could we rather call it a cover-up operation with mutual consent?

Of course Howard's position is not simple : if he holds on to his present strategy, he will lose further credibility. If he changes course under pressure of the public opinion, he will lose his face. It's like a choice between pest and cholera. So what's the only way out then?

It's not that complicated. Focus on a non-essential harmless subject like the bones, let the storm rage about that for a while and patiently wait till it peters out, if possible before Anzac Day, but certainly afterwards. Not so naive, no? In fact very logical, from his point of view.

CGI (not wanting to express any political opinion whatsoever)

[Mat McLachlan]

In a funny sort of way, this confusion about the location of Anzac Cove could be partly responsible for the site of the current roadworks.

Since the Commemorative Site was moved to North Beach in 2000, the focus of the Anzac Day services has also shifted there. Infrastructure in the Anzac area is now geared to bringing people to North Beach, not Anzac Cove as is used to be. If North Beach was the most significant site in the area, it would make sense to build the bus parking area above Anzac Cove - it's tucked around the corner and not visable from the Commemorative Area.

Of course, the huge irony is that the Commemorative Area is used to commemorate events that took place not at North Beach, but at Anzac Cove - the very place the bulldozers are now digging up.

I'm not suggesting the Turks are confused about the location of Anzac Cove - I'm just hypothosising that the shift in focus to North Beach could inadvertantly reduce the significance of Anzac Cove as a tourist destination (at least on Anzac Day, anyway).

[Auimfo]

An interesting observation Mat. That's not something I'd thought of but now you bring it up it I would have to agree that this may indeed be the cause for destruction at Anzac Cove.

The really ironic thing about that, however, is that the reason the service was moved to North Beach was to make room for increasing numbers of visitors and to avoid any potential damage to Anzac Cove.

If they had to build them at all, then it would have been better to build the carparks/bus turnarounds etc somewhere NORTH of the commemorative site.

If anyone still has a copy of Melbourne's Herald-Sun newspaper for 14/3 - I thought Mark Knight's cartoon about this controversy was quite apt. (I'll try and find a copy and post it here)

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

And just to add further weight to the correct placement of Anzac Cove, I thought I'd add this model that is displayed in the Australian War Memorial.

I think we can safely put this issue to bed now.

[Geoff S]

All,

It has become clear to me of late that the Australian government (with the consent of the Enzed government) is a key, if not a willing participant in the vandalism that has been allowed to occur at this important site.

I agree 100% with CGI. (He is right on the money about this whole debacle) Especially Point 3. . The Australian public have supposed to have been fooled by the but 'we have not found any bones, or destroyed the graves nonsense ’)

I doubt any of the people responsible for what has occurred truly understand the significance of the site. There can no clearer indication to me that the site will never be properly protected in future, as the people in charge are hapless fools. The relevant minister should be sacked & the prime minister should be better informed of the governments failure to protect our shared heritage.

Cheers

Geoff S

"The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance" (The RSL motto, no longer defended)

[Auimfo]

I found the Mark Knight cartoon in Melbourne's Herald-Sun newspaper. The unfortunate thing is - it may well become reality before to long.

Somewhere, someone has a lot to answer for but I can only guess they are hiding behind their political masters and government spin.

[bcerha]

Irrespective of the arguments over actual location, and whether "poor" Turkey has the right to exploit its tourism potential or not the one thing that is clear is that this project is obviously NOT being handled by the Turkish authorities in a "sensitive manner" as the Australian government statement so cringingly states.

The photos themselves clearly demonstrate a ham fisted, "get it done as quickly as possible as cheaply as possible" approach which I am afraid is totally indicative of the way business is done in that part of the world. I very much doubt whether a single lorry driver or bulldozer operator has been given a single briefing or instruction other than £clear this bit away and dump it over the edge". I would bet good money that little or no consideratuion was given at the start of this project to the impact or implications of this work and that is simply inexcusable in the 21st century given the sensitivity of the site and the emotions thereupon attached. If Turkey wants to join the EU then it needs to start behaving in a responsible manner and not take the "get rich quick" line which is probably the biggest failing and least attractive feature of all western democracies. I have emailed the chap and asked him to sort it out - its the least they can do. CGI, I'm right with you on this one.

Rant over

DWL

[Max]

If Turkey wants to join the EU then it needs to start behaving in a responsible manner and not take the "get rich quick" line which is probably the biggest failing and least attractive feature of all western democracies.

With the greatest respect Turkey has many more important issues to resolve before EU membership is granted than how its lorry/dumper drivers dispose of their loads.

Andy

[bcerha]

[With the greatest respect Turkey has many more important issues to resolve before EU membership is granted than how its lorry/dumper drivers dispose of their loads.]

Missing the point I was trying to make somewhat, I feel - its not so much a question of how or what they do in practical terms - its more a matter of attitude, mindset and approach. In this respect Turkey and much of the rest of that part of SE Europe has rather different views as to those of Western Europe. It remains a pretty cut throat and dare I say it corrupt part of the world where making a fast profit is often tantamount to all other considerations. Fine you might say as long as no one else is involved, but in this case other people and other nations are involved and so a more considered approach and better structured plan is required. In this sort of matter making a fast buck is not the bottom line - if it were we would have a Macdonalds next to Stonehenge.

David

[Mat McLachlan]

If anyone wants to make their opinions felt on this matter, send an email to the following:

Alexander Downer, Minister for Foreign Affairs. minister.downer@dfat.gov.au

De-Anne Kelly, Minister for Veterens Affairs. De-Anne.Kelly.MP@aph.gov.au

If we make enough noise, the next 'road-widening' project at Gallipoli might be reevaluated.

Cheers,

Mat

[Hedley Malloch]

..; (snip) ... this project is obviously NOT being handled by the Turkish authorities in a "sensitive manner" as the Australian government statement so cringingly states.

... (snip) ... If Turkey wants to join the EU then it needs to start behaving in a responsible manner and not take the "get rich quick" line which is probably the biggest failing and least attractive feature of all western democracies. ... (snip) ...

I would agree with some of this, but one needs to be careful. 'Sensitivity' is culturally determined; it is not an absolute. In the Turkish culture it is regarded as utterly bizarre to search out long-buried bodies on a battlefield and to re-bury them elsewhere. They don't do it for their own dead. As you may have observed, there are only one or two Turkish cemeteries in Gallipoli and their purpose is purely symbolic; most of the 'graves' are empty. Anglo-saxon notions of 'respect for the dead' are likely to be met with looks of blank incomprehension. They are not coarse or insensitive; they just don't share our view of the problem.

There is undoubtedly a 'get rich quick' culture in Turkey and, unfortunately, a tradition of corrupt local officials and politicians of all parties who expect 10% of every public works contract as a matter of course. This means that politicians and officials have many incentives to flout local planning laws and don't supervise contractors effectively. Add to this heady mix a lack of awareness of any history pre-1923 and you have a situation where Turks don't take care of many historical remains, including their own. It's not as though they are singling ANZACs out for special neglect.

What to do? It's hard for an outsider to intervene, but if I was to lobby anyone in Turkey it would be the Army rather than politicians. The Army is relatively untainted by corruption, Turkish politicians are frightened of the Army, and it was the Army who ran Gallipoli as a closed shop for many years and who built all the Turkish war memorials and 'cemeteries' we see today. This is quite apart from their role as combatants there in 1915. There is a sense in which Gallipoli is their property as well. If anyone in Turkey cares, they should.

A good opening question might be: 'What does Ataturk's address on the Arni Burnu memorial mean today and how should it guide the development of the Gallipoli battlefield?'

[Guest CGI]

Latest news 18/03/2005 :

Part of the celebrations for the 90th anniversary of the 18th March attack, was the opening of a new information center at Kilia Limani, just outside Eceabat. During his speech, Prime Minister Erdogan announced the new Milli Park plans for the Peninsula.

Although Mustafa Yalinkilic, the head of Turkey's National Parks Authority, had declared only a week ago that currently there were no plans to upgrade the road linking Lone Pine to Chunuk Bair, Erdogan's message was of a completely different nature.

Milli Park has plans for 120 km of new (or upgraded) roads. In August, work can start on 2nd Ridge, between Lone Pine and Chunuk Bair, where the road follows exactly the narrow old no man's land of the Campaign.

If you consider the fact that during the cease-fire after the disastrous 19th May attack, more than 3000 bodies were buried, exactly where the roadworks are now planned, this is very bad news.

If the damage caused by the excavations at Anzac Cove is exemplary for the way the authorities handle the preservation of natural, cultural and historical heritage, I fear the worst.

CGI

Picture : The hills above Anzac Cove the way they look now. Notice the soil dumped onto the beach at the right hand side .

[ozgur]

Just wanted to add somehing about the "culturally normal things to do". As Hedley Malloch put it in a very wise manner the attitude to grave is much more different in Turkish culture with respect to western european culture. The most important thing while visiting a muslim grave is a prayer "fatiha" to honor the passed one in the name of the God. Fatiha connects you rather divinely with the passed soul. So you dont have to get in physical connection with the remnants. Thats why most of the Turks regard the collection of bones inappropriate.

As a Turk - though I dont think we have much to learn from western european societies - I am quite unhappy about the recent constructions in the peninsula because I have special interest in the history of the gallipoli campaign. It seems the Turkish authorities tend to focus on the needs of a more popular visitor. We amateur historians regard struglling to reach for a historical place a distinct feelings while ordinary visitors prefer a well climated and easy journey.

In a recent discussion program in one of the turkish channels it is revelaed that the Turkish authority planned a 2 meters widening of the path. It seems the constructor violated the contract and made a 7 meters path. I really cant see how in the world such uncoordination occured.

However regarding the most of the posts in this topic it is saddening to see the same cultural attitude towards Turkish society as seeing them passive, corrupt people who are only directed by fear. It is disapointing to see that not much changed since the writings of the british and anzacs' letters writeen just before the battle.

Regards

[Mat McLachlan]

Latest news 18/03/2005 :

Part of the celebrations for the 90th anniversary of the 18th March attack, was the opening of a new information center at Kilia Limani, just outside Eceabat. During his speech, Prime Minister Erdogan announced the new Milli Park plans for the Peninsula.

Although Mustafa Yalinkilic, the head of Turkey's National Parks Authority, had declared only a week ago that currently there were no plans to upgrade the road linking Lone Pine to Chunuk Bair, Erdogan's message was of a completely different nature.

Milli Park has plans for 120 km of new (or upgraded) roads. In August, work can start on 2nd Ridge, between Lone Pine and Chunuk Bair, where the road follows exactly the narrow old no man's land of the Campaign.

If you consider the fact that during the cease-fire after the disastrous 19th May attack, more than 3000 bodies were buried, exactly where the roadworks are now planned, this is very bad news.

If the damage caused by the  excavations at Anzac Cove is exemplary for the way the authorities handle the preservation of natural, cultural and historical heritage, I fear the worst.

CGI

Picture :  The hills above Anzac Cove the way they look now. Notice the soil dumped onto the beach at the right hand side .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CGI,

I am horrified at this view of Anzac Cove in your photo. What a tragedy.

Mat

[Guest CGI]

The latest state of affairs at Ari Burnu, looking towards North Beach. This is the exact spot where part of the Anzac covering force landed on 25th April 1915.

CGI

[Auimfo]

CGI,

These photos defy belief. It is truly a sad day.

There are so many things I would like to say about this vandalism and those who 'enabled' it (both in Turkey and here in Aus) but I'm far to angry and would probably say something I shouldn't.

I always believed this country respected my Grandfather for his sacrifices during WW1 but this really shows how much he and the others really mean to them.

Tim L.

[Andrew P]

and yet our prime minister will be there on Anzac Day with his hand on heart portraying himself for the cameras. But I guess he won't have to walk as far as last time he was there. I wonder if Danna Vale will dare to show herself.

On Anzac Day the History channel is showing a documentary by Jonothan King in which he interviewed the last 10 Australian gallipoli veterans back in the 1990's. Would have been interesting to know what these veterans would have thought of the current mess, but sadly we'll never know.(but can guess)

[Guest TCIngrid]

Maybe, just maybe, some of us Australians are just a tiny bit Precious.

Over 90 years ago some other Australians invaded Turkey. Despite being told that they should hate the unspeakable Turk, after the carnage & suffering on both sides. Our respective countries shook hands, payed the other the deepest and sincerest compliments as to bravery, chivalry etc and became firm friends. For most of those intervening years Turkey has welcomed our visitors to the Battlefield, has joined in our commemorations, and invited us to participate in theirs.

Some 60 years ago another country attempted to invade Australia.

Two key targets were Sydney and Darwin. Hardly any Australian knows what happened to HMAS Kuttabul in Sydney Harbour. Many of us know that Darwin was bombed, but are unsure of the detail.

Where are the memorials to this invasion to be found in Sydney or Darwin.

Where is the eloquent tribute to Japanese sons, and consolation to their mothers, similar to the Ataturk "Address". Where are the acknowledgements to the Allies who suffered & died "on our turf"? [Considerably more Australians are aware of USS Arizona than of USS Peary, which suffered a similar demise inside our front door.]

I don't know!

There is a small private Museum in Darwin. The casualties were all taken south to Adelaide River, where at least they are honoured & respected by the CWGC.

Darwin Wharf, Petrol Storage Area & the Post Office were devastated. THey bear no clear reminder of their fate to stir today's Australians or the many Tourists.

Maybe we should practice what we preach.

Had Turkey said "Rack-off Aussies, 90 years is enough already", maybe we could feel a little disappointed. But WE complained about the inconvience of not having door to monument transport, and SOMEONE stuffed up in trying to oblige. Just what is it about Gallipoli that continues to defy logic?

[Hedley Malloch]

The implicaton that the EU is in a good position to hand out lessons in battlefield conservation to Turkey is not well supported by the facts. A walk along the banks of the Ypres Canal, a talk to the Diggers, a visit to the site of Malins' hide on the Somme should convince anyone that when commercial considerations clash with the need to preserve EU battlefiields, then there is only one wnner.

Perhaps, too, the many Australian posters to this thread should keep some sense of proportion and balance? How respectful were their forbears to the memory, relics and culture of the Aborigine? You are right to criticise, but a little more humility combined with a a little less occupation of the moral high ground might just be in order.

[ozgur]

I am not a nationalistic person but regarding the Turkish attitude against forces that actually tried to invade their country (two of them actually invaded it for long term plans after the war) I am not sure one can find a better example of respect towads a foe in other parts of the world.

Still, the administrative decision was debatable and turkish civil society (oh, forgot we dont have one, sorry) raised many reactions to the decision. But most of the posters here prefered to accuse the "mentality" or "culture" of the Turkish society which is truely disappointing. I will not get into details about the "western examples" of preserving native cultures and enemy graves here to avoid polemical discussions. Suffice to say all of these are administrative decisions and regardless you agree or not the discusssion should be within the historical technical realm without referring to easy-to-use "nations' characters"

Regards

Ozgur

[Geoff S]

Yep interesting!

The site remains one of the most ‘untouched’ battlefield sites in the world. I can think of no other site this large that been left largely free of commercial development. Whether this was good luck or by good judgement does not concern me.

The fact that, HMAS Kuttabul is a rusted hulk, Darwin has been rebuilt, (Wharf, Petrol Storage Area, Post Office,etc) the Ypres sector & Malins' hide on the Somme has disappeared. The fact that the relics and culture of the Aborigine are largely gone does not make it acceptable to say “oh well, it doesn’t matter if we stuff this one up as well”. Surely there comes a point where common sense must prevail.

Anyone who has visited the site, can feel the history embodied in the place because it is largely ‘as it was’ for the men who fought there on both sides. I am sure in future years people will look back at what has been done & shake their heads in disbelief, unless they are committed apologists.

I would be interested in hearing from members who have visited the Anzac site, & believe the road-work to be a positive development. Do we have any of those?

Cheers

Geoff S

I am not one of those people who feels the Turkish Gov't or people are entirely to blame. I am sure the Aust & Enzed govt could have ensured the site was adequately managed/maintained if they had better understanding or advice about what was likely to occur. To think that they even instigated the whole mess is particulary shameful.

[Guest CGI]

TCIngrid (and HMalloch),

You wondered : "Just what is it about Gallipoli that continues to defy logic?"

Well, if you do not see it, I might try to answer your question : If tomorrow, you throw a brick through my window and I don't like that, you might tell me "What are you complaining about some broken glass? In 1945 many houses were much more damaged than that!"

Such a remark seems logical at first sight, but is not : it's called a sophism.

Blaming someone who criticizes one thing that goes wrong in the world for not criticising everything else that goes wrong is easy, but most of all unproductive : such an attitude invariably tries to turn attention away from the problem in question and, what is worse, never offers a constructive alternative.

So what do you suggest? Better keep silent about the damage done to the Gallipoli battlefields? Say "Please go on, we make mistakes too"? Or just sigh "Well, we cannot help it, can we?" and lean back in our armchair?

As a historian who is neither Aussie nor Turk I cannot agree with such an attitude. If tomorrow someone blames the Belgian government for destroying cultural or historical heritage, I will raise my voice as well if his arguments are sound. Irrespective of who or what or where and without making comparisons to other mistakes.

I'm not sure whether evey little bit of protest will help, probably not, but one thing is certain : resignation and complacency are much worse. It's in fact the best thing the people who cause the damage can hope to get : a safe-conduct to carry on in silence.

CGI

[ozgur]

Every person is entitled to raise his voice against such decisions threatening the historical heritage and I am one the persons who sent letters to the relevant administrations. My only objection is expressing the criticism with a general western civilizational arrogance which can be felt in some of the posts. We are quite tired of this attitude during the EU process. No need to experience this here too.

Anyway, I am going to visit the battlefield in the coming months. I will especially spend some time in Anzac sector, take some pics and post here to make a better picture of the latest damage.

Regards

[Auimfo]

That road repairs were needed is not the issue and I am quite willing to accept that some form of work was required. What I cannot abide is the slap-happy method in which it was originally organized. Then to make matters worse, rather than stop the work and reconsider a better approach, the pollies are to scared to admit they stuffed up so try a little 'spin' to try and cover up. And all the while Anzac Cove is being desroyed.

TCIngrid,

All of the events you mention are of importance and deserve their rightful recognition but none of them were ever in a position where the site of the event could be destroyed. To build monuments to events is wonderful and perhaps should be considered but is irrelevant to the issue of current destruction.

Even if we have been a little reticent in acknowledging other events, does this justify the destruction of Anzac Cove - two wrongs don't make a right. And I don't consider myself as precious but very very passionate.

Hedley,

I think you will find that most nations of the world have a few 'skeletons in the closet' but we can't change the past. What's then important is that we admit our faults and do our best to rectify any longterm effects - something that has been underway in Australia for some time now.

As for 'moral high ground' - what's the other option? Should we be humble and just bury our heads in the sand and pretend it's not happening? If more people had taken the high ground in years gone by then perhaps some of the uglier events in history could have been avoided or at least minimized.

Ozgur,

I have the greatest respect for Turkish culture and heritage and do not believe these had any influence over the current happenings at Anzac Cove. My anger and disappointment is directed at the politicians (both Australian and Turkish) who gave a contractor 'carte blanche' without even setting some form of guidelines nor even considering the possible outcomes. Decisions such as these are made by similar people throughout the world and no particular nation's culture is to blame.

[michaeldr]

Ozgur,

I have the greatest respect for Turkish culture and heritage and do not believe these had any influence over the current happenings at Anzac Cove. My anger and disappointment is directed at the politicians (both Australian and Turkish) who gave a contractor 'carte blanche' without even setting some form of guidelines nor even considering the possible outcomes. Decisions such as these are made by similar people throughout the world and no particular nation's culture is to blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to associate myself with those last remarks made by Auimfo;

I am grateful that this subject has been brought to our attention here and I am sure that I am not alone in having already e-mailed this topic to people whom I beleive might be able to help.

However I strongly deprecate the tone of some of the comments. It is tragic, but nevertheless true, that this sort of Balls-Up could have happened anywhere in the world

What is important at this stage is that pressure is kept up [in Australia, Turkey and elsewhere] so that there is a proper over-view of the work and that when it is finished the area is returned as soon as possible to its original state

Please - More words directed at the media and the politicos

And less at each other here!

Regards

Michael D.R.