ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Guest missioner]

Simply it has got too popular.

I feel as passionate about the place as anyone else (My British RE Gt Uncle, landed in the first wave at Anzac and was one of the last to leave), but some work was inevitable.

Some years ago I had the great pleasure of visiting Anzac Cove with my Gt Uncle, he was very astute and still fit. We climbed all over the area and he commented on how different it all looked from when he was there, he was particularly surprised by the way the beach had eroded and was much smaller than it was in 1915.

G'day Raster

Hearing about Tim's trip naturally makes one jealous, But, nothing that any of might now do can compare with the pilgrimage you shared with your Great [in every sense of the word] uncle.

How about telling us HIS story?

ooRoo

Pat

To fellow antipodeans, the Melbourne Herald Sun has excelled this part week.

On April 20 it published a 24 page feature "Gallipoli Diaries - The untold stories".

Even the "with many pictures never seen before" may not have been too far off the mark.

It contains one of the best relief maps of Anzac around.

There is also a transcription from the diary of Colonel Cass 7th Bn. Relative to a previous thread Cass states

"The reckoning for the 2 days was a heavy one. The 3rd Bde had 1900 casualties, the 2nd Bde 1700 and the 1st Bde 900. In the 2nd Bde the casualties included 11 officers killed, 24 wounded & 2 missing.

ooRoo

Pat

[Raster Scanning]

Hearing about Tim's trip naturally makes one jealous, But, nothing that any of might now do can compare with the pilgrimage you shared with your Great [in every sense of the word] uncle.

How about telling us HIS story?

ooRoo

Pat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pat.

It is here

Cheers

[Eceabat]

I am not sure if this should be posted here or at the Gallipoli OPPS site stared by Jul, but things are getting somewhat strange out on the Peninsula. It has just been announced, through a decision of the Turkish Prime Minister's office, that performances of the Maori hakka have been banned on the grounds that they offend public sensibilities. In fact the word used in the statment could be equated in English to pornographic.

I am not going to touch on the political implications of this, some of which I have been privy to. Though not a New Zealander I am deeply saddendd by this as the traditonal performance of the hakka at Chunuk Bair is one of the most moving moments of the Anzac Day commemorations.

As a slight aside, regarding previous references to justice and the Antipodes, my father was English and I have three distant relatives from his side of the family lost during the campaign. What with my wife being Turkish I have a foot in two camps and am in need of an extra limb. No French link that I know of though.

Bill

[michaeldr]

Quote: the traditonal performance of the hakka at Chunuk Bair is one of the most moving moments of the Anzac Day commemorations.

Bill,

where abouts in the order of things did the hakka used to come?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Eceabat]

Michael,

for at least the past 10 years, or as long as I have lived permanently here in Turkey, the hakka was performed in front of the New Zealand Memorial at Chunuk Bair as a conclusion to the official service.

In what I feel is a wonderful step to involve the public, members of the NZ armed forces who are of Maori ethnicity and male members of the NZ public stand before the monument and perform the hakka.

I should say that some years ago, in the late 1990s, the Dawn Service was opened by an event that I again found extremely moving. As the service was about to start, a Maori member of the NZ forces, wearing traditional dress, stood on the Stone of Rememberance and twirled a bull roarer above his head to summon the spirits of the dead so that the assmebled crowd could honour them. There were also four Maori service personnel (two men and two women) standing sentinal at the four corners of Ariburnu Cemetery, where the service used to be held. Another wonderful Gallipoli moment that I treasure.

Bill

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for the prompt reply Bill.

It must have been an inspiring sight

Very sorry to hear that it has been misunderstood and may be omitted

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Blackblue]

Cheers Bill,

I will certainly take you up on that one. I think the evening of the 9th would be the best bet. I am on a pretty tight schedule. AT this stage I plan to get to Eceabat on the 9th, and do the Helles area that day, before heading off early the next morning to Anzac, Suvla etc. If I need more time I have another day up my sleeve. I'll drop you a line before I head off from Australia.

Tim,

If there is anything you need photographed etc. let me know.

Rgds

TD

[Geoff S]

In one way, the roadworks at Gallipoli reflect the situation in 1915.

A clear plan was not developed and communicated to all participants.

The result was a stuff up.

Argument is raging over who was responsible.

Reputations after the event will be shaped by fact, myth and political interests.

Not my words but, would have to agree with them.

Cheers

Geoff S

[Geoff S]

Hi Guys- almost forgot.

I will only be posting my Anzac Diary excerpt on the 25th of April. Irrespective, of what has, or will occur at Anzac in the future, I will not be posting comment on the 25th.

Cheers

Geoff S

---edited---- Geoff, I must remind you of forum rules regarding personal abuse.

[Geoff S]

It's a fair cop pretty joey!~

I apologise if my WW1 Aussie/Arabic slang offended you choom.

9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1, "out"

Geoff S

[Ozzie]

I find it a bit harsh that they won't allow the Hakka. It is a cultural ceromony pertinant to war. The New Zealand sporting teams have performed it before matches all over the world and given that Maoris fought and died for their country it should be recognised. It is definately not pornagraphic when you understand it's history. It's scary which is what it is supposed to be.

Kim

[Max]

I find it a bit harsh that they won't allow the Hakka. It is a cultural ceromony pertinant to war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kim

Do you know what part of the Hakka that the Turks actually object to? Having seen it many times I can't think which part of it is offensive.

Andy McNoon

[Geoff S]

How come you crimed me for calling you "Andy McNoon" & you can call yourself Pongo McNoon?

"Come on the grouter"

G

[Ozzie]

It may be the tongue or the arm movements or even the amount of skin showing when done in traditional clothing, but it is a cultural historic piece and should be viewed as such.

Kim

[Eceabat]

Wonderful news.

Common sense has won out and the ban on the hakka has been removed. Heritage and commemoration will be served at Chunuk Bair. Mind you, ban or no, New Zealanders I have spoken to here were determined that the hakka would have been performed.

As to the question as to what part of the hakka conservative Turks objected to I will try and explain. In some of the arm movements one arm is raised, bent at the elbow and the other hand slaps against the outside of the first. (hope this paints an image). However, and this is crux of the matter and also shows that those who imposed the ban didn't take enough notice, in Turkish culture, bending the arm and slapping the INSIDE of that arm with the other hand is deeply offensive, a gesture to tell another person to get F***ed. (hope that's OK moderators, but I did need to explain the meaning)

I know that I and others here have tried to explain the symbolism of the hakka (as well as an Australian can) and I have never found any Turk I have spoken to over the years who has been offended by this, mystified at times, startled often but never offended.

All the Turkish people here in Eceabat I have spoken to are very pleased that this unfortunate decision has been reversed, as they see the performing of the hakka as a gesture also honouring their own fallen as well as those of New Zealand.

Personnally, I am grateful at the intervention of local Turkish authorities, in particular the provincial governor, who worked hard overnight to have this decision revoked.

Sadly, I may not be able to attend the NZ memorial service this year as I will be speaking on Turkish television in a live broadcast from ANZAC Cove discussing the events of the first day of the land campaign along with a panel of Turkish experts. However, from past experience I know that the chants accompanying the hakka echo down from Chunuk Bair to the coast, very haunting.

As an Aussie all I can say is "Go Kiwi".

PS. without trying to be political, I think it sad that the Australian Prime Minister has decided to skip the Chunuk Bair commemorations to attend a barbeque on the beach.

[Ozzie]

PS. without trying to be political, I think it sad that the Australian Prime Minister has decided to skip the Chunuk Bair commemorations to attend a barbeque on the beach.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shades of yesterdays gone by.

Quote

As to the question as to what part of the hakka conservative Turks objected to I will try and explain. In some of the arm movements one arm is raised, bent at the elbow and the other hand slaps against the outside of the first. (hope this paints an image). However, and this is crux of the matter and also shows that those who imposed the ban didn't take enough notice, in Turkish culture, bending the arm and slapping the INSIDE of that arm with the other hand is deeply offensive, a gesture to tell another person to get F***ed. (hope that's OK moderators, but I did need to explain the meaning)

In my teenage years this meant exactly that, it was a very rude gesture.

A while later I worked with a Maori and one night, with a few of his mates, they performed the Hakka about 6 feet away from us. It was a very impressive and stirring performance, as well as putting me on the back foot.

It is good that the fast talking succeeded.

Kim

[Bryn]

What beach?

Geoff; welcome to the I've-been-censored club! I'm president coz I was first. Andrew P is secretary. missioner is in charge of the bar. What do you want to be?

Bill; good luck there with Turkish TV tomorrow. Is Serpil doing anything?

[Ozzie]

Quote

Geoff; welcome to the I've-been-censored club! I'm president coz I was first. Andrew P is secretary. missioner is in charge of the bar. What do you want to be?

Yes, Bill all the best.

Kim

[Auimfo]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted. Hearing the news last night and again reading it this morning, it appears John Howard and De-Ann Kelly now claim they are shocked by the level of damage at Anzac Cove!! They claim that this amount of work was never intended nor asked for and that some small improvements with a bus turnaround some distance from Anzac Cove was all that was requested - they've even now produced the mysterious letter sent to the Turks by Dana Vale that confirms this.

They were quoted as saying that if they had known the amount of damage that was being caused then they would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

That the letter is genuine I don't know, but will accept as true. That they didn't request all this work is probably also true. But what absolutely astounds me is their claim they knew nothing of the level of damage being caused.

I know I sent emails to all concerned and so did many others in far higher authority than I. Then there were the studies and recommendations and many photos posted on the internet. After all that they sent a representative to view the damage when the initial work was halted for a spell. Were they doing the ostrich and have their heads buried in the sand all that time....I don't think so. I believe they held the letter back and deflected the attention all these weeks so that when the media and crowds arrived for Anzac Day and saw the damage the government could claim "we had no idea" and "what a tragedy" simply to push the blame away from themselves and back onto the Turks.

A new all time low has just been reached.

Tim L.

[Ozzie]

Tim

Hear , Hear.

Kim

[Eceabat]

Well team,

Forgive me if this is a bit brief, as compared to my usual overlong waffling. ANZAC Day, on the Peninsula is pretty much over for the year and I have to say, it went off well (very well if you like the Bee Gees), or at least the Dawn Service did.

The Turkish security personnel worked hard to prevent alcohol being carried in to the Dawn Service site, searching all who were arriving. Admittedly, at two places I noticed alcohol was still being sold within sight of authorities well away from the Dawn Service site but the level of intoxication was about nil. The record crowd, estimated at about 20,000, was very well behaved with there being no disturbances, or at least none in my line of sight as I wandered around. Having in recent years been less than impressed by the rowdy minority who sampled well if not wisely of the amber joy juice, this year’s service restored some of my faith.

Most of the pre-service Prelude as it was described was tasteful and not overblown. However, the prelude to the Prelude was not so much to my taste as firstly the Bee Gees don’t do it for me and secondly, I don’t think even soft pop is appropriate for such an event. There wasn’t much difference between a live Johnny Farnham and a VDC of the family Gibbs. Many seemed to feel the same.

Funnily enough, neither my wife Serpil or I were invited to John Howard’s barbeque, something to do with the guest list being cut to the bone.

Bryn,

The Turkish program went well, with Turkish historians Gursel Gurncu, Sahin Akdogan and I taking it in turns to slate the past, present and future developments. I hope someone here was watching. Serpil has been working with both NZ and ABC television over the past week and got some good and revealing stories in.

Yes, yes, this is starting to emulate the length of some of my other postings but I would like to say something about what Tim raised, the denials of Mr Howard and Australian Veteran Affairs minister De-anne Kelly on the roadwork issue.

It is not much good saying that if they had known the extent of the damage they would have stepped in. On one hand the Howard government has said that it is Turkish land and they can’t intervene. On the other, the head of the Office of Australian War graves, Air Vice Marshal (Rtd) Garry Beck, was in Turkey soon after the work started and visited the Peninsula on three occasions while the work was in progress. When I spoke to him (briefly) at the beginning of March, he said he could not talk to me as he was writing a report to the minister. Either the report wasn’t written, wasn’t read or didn’t reflect the situation. Senior officials from the Australian Embassy also visited the site on two occasions in March, and I met with the ambassador on March 17 to discuss my concerns and those of others about the damage being done and the disturbing of remains. Face it, what with the media coverage, there was a lot of information floating around.

As this is now starting to reach epic proportions, I think I’ll close here as I have been on the go for about 36 hours.

Cheers

Bill

[Bryn]

Thanks for the update, Bill. Too bad about your not being invited to the barbeque, probably a clerical oversight. Maybe you could drop in to Yarralumla for elevenses next time you're back in Canberra. Was Kenan involved in anything on the day? Get some sleep before answering, okay?

[Guest missioner]

Andy

Please take this 'in good spirit' also.

It may have been better for Turkish - Ausstralian - NZ - UK relations had you been given the task of 'Moderating" the speeches etc inflicted on the world by the Australian & NZ 'dignataries'

I personally squelched when our PM dsucked for cover & blamed the Turks for desecrating the site. [prior to the Event] Even Billy Hughes or Bob Menzies would have smiled & copped it sweet, and they are not my favourite Australians.

I have been 'moderated' for pom-bashing, general-bashing etc etc, but for our spokespersons to claim that Gallipoli was the foundation of our nations because WE at last threw off the Colonial domination, gave me a guts ache. {ANZAC Day is supposed to REMEMBER the common service men & women of all our wars. How could those 'errors of fact & judgement" be accepted by the men sent to Greece & Singapore?}

IMHO there was one clear winner 'this time time round' - the Turkish people. Ataturk's letter to the Mothers of the invaders who now are Turkish sons as well, was a definite positive of the first round. It was particularly poignant to hear that welcome restated in Turkish amongst the other guff broadcast yesterday.

Apparently it is no longer the official interpretation, but I grew up believing that ANZAC Day was our opportunity to say a quiet Thank You to those who made a sacrafice, not necessarily the Supreme Sacrifice, on our behalf. Most of our Memorials etc were funded by servicemen themselves or by public fund raisings.

The Gallipoli Circus is not what they would have wanted.

Is it keeping faith with THEM, and is it TRUE, that their Battle, known as the "Defence of Anzac " was a DEFEAT? The worst that I would personally concede would be a 20 all draw.

There was a small but hopeful development in Victoria yesterday. Near Ballarat a small Bush school held a simple ceremony. The children walked, hand in hand, with a couple of WW2 veterans to the top of an isolated hill and planted a descendant of the origional Lone Pine.

[Peter Beckett]

It was also very disquietening to hear on the news today about the tonnes of rubbish left there after the crowds had gone.

If it is so sacred a site to memories of all lives lost, one can only wonder about the mob who were so careless about their mess left behind.

As someone in Oz says: Shame, Shame, Shame

Peter

[Auimfo]

Totally agree Peter. Thousands of people make a pilgrammage half way around the other side of the world - spending lots of cash to get there, and then decide to dump rubbish all over the place.

Are they serious about honouring the sacrifices of fellow countrymen or is visiting Anzac just the 'trendy thing to do'.

Disgraceful.

Tim L.

P.S. - I'm not to sure that the Bee Gees are in keeping with the theme either.