ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Auimfo]

Luckily enough I was able to read the Denis Glover article Andrew posted before it was deleted and let me tell the rest of you, it hit the nail right on the head. Andrew posted the entire article probably because it wasn't available on-line and unfortunately I can't remember which newspaper he transcribed it from but rest assured it was a good'un.

As for the editing....well what can I say. This topic goes hand in hand with political ineptitude and deceit so how can we discuss one without discussing the other. If we were to be attacking the gov't wholesale with the purpose of pushing our own political barrows then that's one thing but in this case we are restricting our political comment to this issue alone - one which has serious consequences to Australian and NZ heritage (not to mention Turkey's). In addition, it is directly Great War related and as such should be debated and discussed on this forum.

It is through the establishment of forums such as this that important information can be internationally spread and in this case it is obvious that if we hadn't pushed the limits of forum rules then the media may not have cottoned on nearly as quickly and who knows how much more damage could have been caused in that time. Should we just sit idly by and not bring the attention of others to this issue simply because we don't want to breach any rules?

Sometimes the issue is of greater importance than the rules and a greater good results from their bending.

Tim (soap box) L.

[Mat McLachlan]

I agree Tim. This is an issue that is so deeply entangled with 'politics' that it is impossible to talk about one without the other.

To the Moderators, I understand your desire to limit wholesale political slanging matches on your forum, but this issue is a bit different. This section of the forum is called 'Battlefields in danger', a topic highly likely to be contentiously debated. I find it puzzling that you would provide a section of the forum where members can voice their concerns about modern intrusions on historic battlefields, but then forbid members from discussing the reasons behind them.

It seems likely that most 'battlefield in danger' issues will have at least some political implications - it is after all the public servants who make the laws and plan the works that threaten the battlefields - so maybe there should be some more latitude given in this section of the forum.

[Max]

There have been 201 posts made on this thread and over 4300 views. Of these posts only a very small number have been edited because of political content, this is hardly stiffling debate.

I can only re-state what I said earlier, no political debate of a contemporary nature will be allowed on this forum. Any posts that breach this rule will be either edited or deleted, no exceptions.

Andy

[Auimfo]

There have been 201 posts made on this thread and over 4300 views. Of these posts only a very small number have been edited because of political content, this is hardly stiffling debate.

But Andy, the vast majority of posts regarding this issue were the discovering of how the constuction work came into being and no political comment was relevant. As the topic developed however, forum members gradually uncovered the full political complicity and deceit surrounding the issue.

It is since this discovery that the posts have begun to be edited - and quite a few of these have been.

I can only re-state what I said earlier, no political debate of a contemporary nature will be allowed on this forum. Any posts that breach this rule will be either edited or deleted, no exceptions.

I would make the argument that this is NOT 'political debate'. We are not debating one parties policies versus another and we are not discussing anyones particular ideologies. The discussion here is about damage to Anzac Cove first and foremost. It just so happens that the vehicle that enabled it was a government and as such we must discuss the 'factual' actions taken by them. It would be no different whatever political party was involved nor if it involved a multinational company instead of a government.

I would agree that comment must be restricted to this particular issue and anything that strays beyond must be subject to the moderators however I have seen no evidence in the vast majority of edited posts that justified their alteration.

Tim L.

[Andrew P]

Very disappointed in your handling of this issue Max.

I can understand your reasoning in the case of political debates or slanging matches, but we've already explained to you the importance of this topic and how it can't be divided from politics.

[Andrew P]

Andrew P, I'd like to get those links that were deleted from your posts as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will e-mail the appropraite articles to both Bryn & Michael. Maybe you can make up your own minds on these articles.

[Eceabat]

While there is most definitely a political dimension to what has happened at ANZAC Cove, including very much from the Turkish angle as well as the Australian, what is at issue is the question of what happens next.

The destruction of much of the topographical fabric above ANZAC Cove and the coastal strip up to the museum at Kabatepe has, to all intents and purposes, been completed. The last 600 metres of asphalt will be laid Thursday. Admittedly, it is a worry to be told, as I was Wednesday by a Turkish contractor, that the present layer of asphalt is only the first of three to be laid, put down in a hurry to provide access ahead of Anzac Day. More work is scheduled to be carried out in the coming months. However, this is not supposed to entail more excavations. There is also supposed to be a general clean up of all the waste, spoil and debris when construction work is completed.

What does need to be addressed is trying to make sure, in part through pressure on our elected representatives, particularly those in Australia and Turkey, that any future developments, such as the planned upgrading of the road along Second Ridge in the Anzac sector, is done in a manner that causes the least impact on the terrain and the sites that run along it.

The road is in urgent need of repair and improvement. It is potholed and the verges are crumbling. However, this does not mean carving large swathes through the landscape, and as a result destroying the trenches and tunnels running on either side, unearthing the large number of human remains lying beneath the soil, and destroying the topography of this critically important sector.

What I and many others have been urging is that proper mechanisms for archaeological survey, historical assessment and appropriate engineering planning be put in place.

Obviously, by virtue of each of us being a part of this thread, we all have an interest in the battlefields and their fate. As someone who has been deeply involved in the debate in the media and elsewhere, and who has been targeted directly by Turkish and Australian politicians and officials over my statements, I have very strong views on the political aspects of this issue.

Being named in the Australian parliament, having the Australian Prime Minister say that claims I made that excessive damage was being done or that human remains were being disturbed could not be substantiated, or comments by one very senior bureaucrat made off the record to a journalist that I was an "unprincipled journalist who had planted human remains on the battlefield so I and others could photograph them" certainly targeted my credibility as a journalist and historian.

That said, I consider this more of a personal matter, and will not let it cloud the main issue, that of campaigning to ensure that no further destructive development takes place on the battlefields.

Cheers

Bill

[Guest missioner]

Ah well Justice served.

or is it Don't do what I do, do what I say?

Reading Max's contributions to the "Ah Well - Justice served" thread, and the inflamatory comments okayed when discussing an alleged Aborigional member of the SS in World War 2, one might glean some inconsistencies in the ideals of British Justice.

One might be paranoid to suggest that different rules apply to the Antipodes

message incomplete

[Max]

One might be paranoid to suggest that different rules apply to the Antipodes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Pat

I do find your comments slightly rich but your feelings of paranoia are duly noted.

As you may or may not be aware I am not a full time, 24/7 paid moderator and believe it or not I do have a life outside this forum and do occasionally miss threads. The Aboriginal member of the SS being one of those that I did miss. I am sure that if other moderators had found anything amiss with the thread they would have taken action, alternatively you can report any post that you feel breaks forum rules to a moderator by using the facility provided.

Andy

[Auimfo]

Missioner and Max,

Umm guys....if I may draw your attention back to the topic at hand......

Although we may be debating the censorship it still relates directly to the topic - let's not stray off into personal slanging matches that are irrelevant to the issues here. Anzac Cove is far more important than tit for tat squabbles.

Tim L.

[Bryn]

Paranoia or not; having lived in the UK for the five years from 1993-1998, I'd say that different rules do apply to those from 'the Antipodes', and they don't involve anything leaning towards preferential treatment, if you get my drift. I'd be interested to hear from anybody who disputes that, provided they've lived in Australia or New Zealand for a similar sort of time.

Now I'll be the first to admit that the post I made earlier - the one that was deleted entirely - was too purely political, and on reflection I realise that it would not have furthered this discussion. I have no problem with the moderator's actions on that. It was my fault for being ignorant of the forum rules, which I have since checked thoroughly. What I did not like was the fact that the post just disappeared without trace. No explanation, no nothing. I might just have posted it again and again, assuming something was wrong with the forum itself. If moderators 'don't have time' to edit posts and / or articles properly, what are they doing in the job?

I've seen the articles Andrew P posted (thanks, Andrew). I'm talking about the ones written by professional writers, which have already been edited for content by professional editors before we even see them. Seems they're okay to read if you buy a newspaper in Australia, or check out the paper's web site, just don't try it here.

The whole Anzac Cove fiasco is bound up in, and inseparable from, politics, but the forum has its rules, which we should abide by or leave. So maybe here is not a good place to try to have a reasonable discussion on what's going on at Gallipoli.

Bill, you'll remember when I was there with you in 2003, construction was going on on a road along Third Ridge. Empty cement bags were blowing about all over the place and it was generally a huge mess. How's that all looking out there now?

[Max]

If moderators 'don't have time' to edit posts and / or articles properly, what are they doing in the job?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bryn

Whilst I have no problem with being quoted, I do take exception to being misrepresented.

I at no time said that I did not have time to edit members posts. Andrew P posted an article by an Australian journalist in toto and stated that if it broke forum rules could some moderator edit it. I am not in the habit of amending any journalists work to conform to this forums rules and decided to delete the whole thing as " I haven't got time to edit someone elses article" and the articles language and tone broke forum rules.

As you have "checked thoroughly" the forum rules you will be aware of the section entitled "Forum Moderators", it states, "If you don't agree with a decision, you may discuss it with the moderator who made the judgement in private, but you aren't "entitled" to a "hearing" or even a necessarily a response. The rules outlined on this page will be used as moderation guidelines. "

I hope that this clarifys the situation.

Andy

[Eceabat]

Bryn,

In answer to your question of how the Third Ridge road is, hmm, what do I say. As this too was a project carried out in haste by Turkish authorities in order to have it finished in time for a visit of the Turkish Prime Minister, there were some problems. Umm, it collapsed at one point, err three times to be exact and parts of the road bed elsewhere had to be relaid. All has been rectified.

For those unfamiliar with the region or who have not visited for a while, this newly laid road runs along the top of Third or Gun Ridge, which was in the Turkish sector of the Ariburnu front. It runs from Chunuk Bair along the ridge down to just behind the Kabatepe Museum and Information Centre.

The road was conceived as part of a ring road system to ease the weight of traffic on Second Ridge, along which many of the front line trenches ran during the campaign and the scene of some of the heaviest fighting and casualties.

As Bryn has suggested, the work done on the road did result in a fair amount of environmental damage, though I personally support the building of it, if only as a way to better preserve Second Ridge. That said, much of the debris from the construction of the road was not removed and is still in place (Bryn, saw one of your old friends, a cement bag a few days ago). This is a cause of concern in light of the events around Anzac Cove and the coastal road.

Again of concern (yes, here it comes, he is going to drum on about Second Ridge again) is that the Third Ridge road is only half of the ring, the first half of the loop is on (you guessed it) Second Ridge. Even if this road was upgraded in the way done on Third Ridge it will cause damage to the front line area. If it is done in the manner of the construction along the coast, we can forget about the "best preserved battlefield of the 1914-1918 war" tag.

A bit long winded and convoluted but there is that update.

Oh yes, just a quick note for anyone out there who may be attending the services on the Peninsula on 24 and 25 April. The ANZAC sector will be closed to all traffic on the afternoon of 24 April, between about 13:30 and 16:00, as the Prime Ministers of Turkey, Australia and New Zealand, along with Prince Charles, will be touring the area. This isn’t a cheap shot, it is a travel advisory.

In addition, Turkish authorities have announced that no private vehicles will be allowed onto the Peninsula ahead of the Dawn Service, so anyone heading that way will need to book a ride with a tour company or someone with a bus.

Cheers

Bill

PS, Bryn, I have tried and possibly failed to get through your anti-spam security an rather a number of occassions over the past 18 months. If you could drop me a line so we can re-establish direct, and possibly covert, political dialogue I'd appreciate it.

[Bryn]

Bill - thanks for the update. I've just this week changed ISPs, so hopefully wil be easier to get through to, even with the anti-spam stuff operating. Say hi to Charlie for me on Anzac Day!

Andy - We have no way of knowing what you've edited out - article, photo, link, whatever - when all we can see is 'Edited'.

I wasn't looking for a 'hearing' or expecting a response as some kind of right. I was making a comment on what (I assume) had happened to one of my posts, and making observations intended for whomever might be interested, which, judging by the amount of email traffic flying around in the background on this topic, seems to be a considerable number.

If you don't want to respond, that's up to you. If you don't want to comment on why something's been censored, you're within your rights; doesn't mean I have to like it though, or smile sweetly and pretend I do.

[Max]

If you don't want to respond, that's up to you. If you don't want to comment on why something's been censored, you're within your rights; doesn't mean I have to like it though, or smile sweetly and pretend I do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are quite right, I don't have to respond, but generally speaking I make every effort to do so.

However, I still take exception to being misrepresented.

Andy

[Guest missioner]

You are quite right, I don't have to respond, but generally speaking I make every effort to do so.

G'day Andy.

For what its worth mate, you have my award for "The Caring Moderator".

You have brought a bit of humour to your "JOB" . Obviously that job does carry a bit of stress, particularly when even simple greetings such as "Hello" or G'Day can be interpreted or misinterpreted ad infinitum.

My last posting may have appeared "personal". I'm fair dinkum in saying it was not, but was just a case of using the squirrel-grip to push my pet barrows of silent censorship & 'those Australians think they were the only ones at Gallipoli'.

Rather than stir the possum anymore

ooRoo

Pat

[Andrew P]

Frankly I thought if intelligent adults can read an article in a newspaper and make their own judgements they can do the same here, but I was sadly mistaken.

I've never had a problem with moderators before, since joining when Chris first started this forum.

There are other interesting articles I was going to post, but the censorship here is absurd. Who moderates what the moderators are doing?

I also ask that in future if messages are deleted, the person be made known by e-mail or pm.

But back on events, 60 Minutes on sunday night are having a section devoted to Gallipoli. Hopefully they will touch on the current situation.

[Raster Scanning]

It seems to me that the most effective thing that can be done at Gallipoli is to leave the place alone. It's all this talk of improving facilities for visitors, building ossuaries for any bones we may find, etc, that is causing all the problems. The Gallipoli battlefield has been well preserved for 90 years with an appropriate level of maintenance, so I'm at a loss to understand why we suddenly need to embark on a frenzy of construction. Gallipoli stands as a monument to the 1915 battles because of the lack of development that has occurred there.

Cheers,

Mat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simply it has got too popular.

Up until recently the remoteness of the place ensured it was not over visited.

Now it is an essential stop for many Australians and Kiwis, not forgetting the much greater numbers of British and French people who have family links to the area (if not Anzac itself). This coupled with cheap flights ensures that more and more people will arrive each year.

It would be physically impossible to keep the place preserved as it has been for the last 90 years without closing it to the public.

Please do not think I am condoning the insensitive construction work, I feel as passionate about the place as anyone else (My British RE Gt Uncle, landed in the first wave at Anzac and was one of the last to leave), but some work was inevitable.

Some years ago I had the great pleasure of visiting Anzac Cove with my Gt Uncle, he was very astute and still fit. We climbed all over the area and he commented on how different it all looked from when he was there, he was particularly surprised by the way the beach had eroded and was much smaller than it was in 1915.

Cheers.

[Peter Beckett]

Pat, Tim, Frev, Andrew and others

Have you read the article in today's Herald-Sun page 15. Nearly half a page

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/st...255E662,00.html

Peter

[Guest missioner]

Peter

Yes thanks!

Todays HS Editorial is about AE2, and in today's "Hard-copy" there are a couple of other articles which are very similar to the one you posted from their site.

Edited 23 April , 2005 by missioner

[Blackblue]

Cheers Peter,

Have been following this thread and what has been said in the media. All the papers are picking it up here and many are clearly laying much of the blame at the feet of the Australian Government.

Thanks for the on site comments Bill. They are much appreciated. Will there be any access restrictions after Anzac Day? I will be there on the 9th/10th May....I have other commitments here for the 25th and want to miss the Anzac Day rush. My first trip so I am not really in a position to compare and identify how much damage has been done.

I am staying at TJ's Eceabat on the 9th and possibly the 10th. Would be great to catch up for a beer if anyone is about.

Rgds

Tim

[Auimfo]

Thanks for the link Peter. I actually had time to read the paper at work this morning. It seems that with Anzac Day on our doorstep the media have finally caught on now they've seen the extent of the damage for themselves. Alas, it appears their influence may have come too late.

Tim L.

Tim/Blackblue,

I can't possibly talk to you anymore without kicking myself with envy....lucky b@%$^&d.

[Peter Beckett]

My first trip so I am not really in a position to compare and identify how much damage has been done.

I was there in 1998 and just going on the track along the coast was bad enough, trying hard to visualise the actual terrain in 1915. At least I got to walk the untouched beach which is something that no-one can do now

Peter

[Eceabat]

Tim,

just a quick reply to your query, no, there should be no restrictions on getting around the battlefields at the time of your visit, though the Helles sector and Second Ridge around Chunuk Bair can be crowded on weekends with large numbers of Turkish tourists.

Just as a brief travel advisory, there will be Turkish cememonies held on May 19 to commemorate the major Ottoman attack aganist the ANZAC beach head on that date. This has now become an annual event. Again there is heavy traffic and some travel restrictions may apply, depending on the level of official Turkish representation. Foreign visitors are most welcome to attend the event.

Again for those who may be attending the Dawn Service, be advised to get to the site as early as possible the night beforeas it appears that the Turkish government, or at least the ruling party's administration, has decided to bus down 15,000 school children and boy scouts to attend the event. Even at conservative estimates, this would mean a total of 30,000 people trying to cram into an area designed for 12,000.

Oh, and Tim, if that offer of a beer is open I'd love to take you up on it, Eceabat is well sorted for such recreation and the insightful conversation it prompts.

Bill

[michaeldr]

Quote from Andrew P, yesterday: Will e-mail the appropraite articles to both Bryn & Michael. Maybe you can make up your own minds on these articles.

Very many thanks Andrew

Have now had a chance to catch up on the reading

All very interesting

Thanks again

Michael D.R.