ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Guest missioner]

[P.S. - I'm not to sure that the Bee Gees are in keeping with the theme either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stayin' Alive, Staayin' Alive?

Aw I dunno. That might at least be a positive. Many of the origionals did just that against all the odds!

[Eceabat]

26/4

I have managed a few hours sleep and so may be a bit more coherent this time round.

In my last rambling posting, I didn’t get the chance to address a personal bug bear of mine, the increasing amount of litter strewn around the site of the dawn service and elsewhere. Reports in the media do not exaggerate the problem, it is dreadful and one I have difficulty understanding.

I am one of the ‘if you bring it with you, take it way when you go school" and as the area is both a national park and a cemetery the mess is beyond my simple understanding. One any other day of the year, as Australian, New Zealand and an increasing number of British and tourists of other nationalities visit the area, you would be hard put to see someone dropping litter.

I got some very strange looks last year when I, along with two late middle aged Australian women, spent an hour collecting garbage and bagging it after the Dawn Service. But it is not just younger visitors to blame, one of the worst cases I came across was a 90 strong RSL group from Australia, all of whom left their polystyrene lunch packs, drink cans, etc dumped outside the Lone Pine cemetery where they picnicked after the Australian service.

All that said, there are only a few large garbage bins provided and these soon fill up. Also, to many people’s credit, they do bag their garbage but it gets unbagged by locals who rush into the site to collect bottles, tins and other saleable items. The Turkish park authorities have their staff and garbage trucks in there a few hours after the service to clean up, not that they should have to do so in the manner they are forced to.

One suggestion put forward by Bernina Gezici, who along with her husband Ilhami ‘TJ’, operate TJ’s Tours in Eceabat (not a plug) is that Australia offer to pay for Turkish staff to go around carrying large bags during the night to collect garbage as it is strewn. A few public announcements of "take it with you" could help too.

It is difficult for people to get to the few large garbage bins around the site, as they are loath to leave their spot in case they lose it and the crowds are packed in tight anyway. It is a problem that needs to be worked on.

As to the query from Tim as to whether attending the services has just become a trendy thing to do, there can be an element of that but this year, what with Turkish authorities rigidly policing the booze ban, I would say that the level of respect, commemoration and being humbled by the achievements and sacrifices by all those who served was wonderful. Walking among the crowds before and after the Dawn Service and talking to many, I got a real sense that being here mattered. Of course there is always the "been there, done that, bought the tee shirt" element but it even those were humbled by the experience, at least in my opinion.

Regarding the pop concert aspect, it was actually toned down this year. We didn’t get Men at Work, Cold Chisel or other CDs played (thankfully). As one who yearns for a simpler Dawn Service, interestingly when there was a 30 minute break in between the brothers Gibb and the Prelude just about everyone stood or sat around talking quietly. It reminded me of Dawn Services in Australia that I have attended, people soaking up a bit of atmosphere and awaiting the dawn. No one seemed to mind that there was no "entertainment". Frankly, I think the organising officials have got it wrong, the natives are not going to get restless unless fed a diet of pop culture. In the past, you could get a sense of place, of actually being at ANZAC, in those hours before the Dawn Service.

The massive level of lighting, along with the light towers and technical accessories also distract from the atmosphere but I do understand that they are a necessary evil if the event is to be broadcast by television.

Like Missioner, I found the level of Pom bashing in the speeches given by some rather excessive. I don’t know if it was just because HRH was there or not but it was far over the top and not in keeping with my understanding of the feelings of many of the war generation.

Bill

PS. Bryn, it was not a major bone of contention that Serpil and I were not invited to the PM's picnic, as we and he are on rather different tracks I doubt our paths would meet, even over a mixed grill accompanied by a banned drink that the public rightly abstained from having. Not sure what Kenan was up to on the day.

[Guest missioner]

Bryn

Sorry, I missed my nomination for 'bar - keep'. Would consider it an honour to serve!

Bill

I actually stayed home from this years Dawn Service in Melbourne because it is now too crowded and too organised. I had intended to go but on passing the Shrine on Anzac Eve noted an increase in activity so dropped in. The activity was partly in preparation for TV and radio broadcasting of the March but much related to the 'performance',[ choirs etc] for the Dawn Service. The 'movable' exhibition inside the 'visitor centre' was more about multiculturism than the ANZAC experience, and the last straw was to witness a "Shrine Official" tell a ''tour group" of all ages, that the Timorese were abandoned by "THE SOLDIERS" during WW2.

She was pushing a personal barrow more extreme than mine and using the facilities of the Shrine to do so.

Its great that Anzac Day has not faded. THEY will not be forgotten. Maybe some of us will now just do a little silent remembering, avoid the organised demonstrations, and not feel that we are letting the side down.

Pat

[Ozzie]

Bill,

The news on TV just siad all that you said about crowds, rubbish etc and added that the Aus. PM is in Istanbul talking to the Turkish about the roadworks.

Kim

[Geoff S]

Geoff; welcome to the I've-been-censored club! I'm president coz I was first. Andrew P is secretary. missioner is in charge of the bar. What do you want to be?

Aussy base-wallah (beer-swiper) training Woodbines!

G

[Auimfo]

I'll offer my services as the bouncer.

Tim L.

[Eceabat]

I am not sure about this as I want details, especially as to whether this refers to Second Ridge or just the Cove area, but the snippet below has just been released in the media.

"After talks with Turkish prime minister Recep Erdogan, Mr Howard announced two joint studies would be undertaken into the engineering and historical aspects of Anzac Cove, with particular reference to the controversial road running above the beach where the Anzacs landed 90 years ago.

He said Australia would pay at least half the costs for the studies."

The devil is in the detail, but we may, repeat may, have just had a win. Of course, anything that goes on will have to be watched closely.

Whether this is more smoke and mirrors or whether the results of these studies will be taken into account for any future projects will also have to be seen.

Bill

[Ozzie]

That appears to be good news! Thanks Bill.

Kim

[Mat McLachlan]

It certainly seems our perception for what is appropriate at Gallipoli has gone off the rails. The PM was on TV this morning claiming there was no problem with the rubbish left lying around because "it's no more than you would see around Sydney Harbour after New Year's Eve..." Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Anzac Day was supposed to be a commemoration of sacrifice, not a party. If the PM feels that NYE and Anzac Day are in any way similar, I'm not surprised the roadworks at Anzac Cove were carried out with so little care for the site.

In another news piece, the reporter commented on the criticism that's been levelled at the young pilgrims at Anzac Cove, saying "they've even been criticised for lying on graves", as if it's a very natural, even an expected, part of a visit to a cemetery that you would pull up your sleeping bag and have a refreshing kip on the grave of a Gallipoli casualty.

I find it puzzling that at the Dawn Service in Sydney, the predominantly young crowd is extremely respectful and there is never a hint of littering, singing a few Cold Chisel numbers or lying down on the memorials they have come to commemorate, but at Gallipoli it seems to be a bit of a free-for-all.

I think it's time we started limiting numbers to the Gallipoli service in an effort to regain some control over the crowds and inject a bit of dignity back into the service.

I'll get off my soap box now.

Cheers,

Mat

[Geoff S]

Mat,

I couldn't agree more with your post. I mentioned exactly the same idea on another Aussie site this morning,

"I am not indicating paying for the right to visit Gallipoli. But, I think that the Turkish & Australian authorities should consider the site, ahead of the ‘pilgrims’. I would like to see the numbers restricted. "

Cheers

Geoff S

[Bryn]

Geoff, your application for the position of Aussy base-wallah (beer-swiper) training Woodbines is accepted. Incredibly, this highly sought-after position had not already been filled. Tim, your application is being considered but the competition is tough, as there already seems to be an oversupply of 'bouncers' around here.

Sommey, I found some of your comments to be lucid, if at times slightly completely impenetrable, and agree that the exclusivity of the club being formed could ultimately be its own undoing. But, like that other select group to which I (do not) belong, The Caterpillar Club, which requires that one's life must have been saved by a parachute in order to gain membership, we still require one to have been edited on this thread.

After all, if the Caterpillar Club were to start admitting anybody who's ever worn silk or driven past a mulberry tree, it would, I fear, lose some of its attraction, and people who would otherwise have considered using a parachute when their plane is spiralling towards ground might no longer bother; I mean, what would be their incentive? So it is with us.

On a slightly more serious note, I still feel there's a problem with limiting numbers to the Anzac area, whether around Anzac Day, or at any other time. An estimated 600,000 Turkish tourists will pass through the area in the coming year (at least that's what I've heard), and maybe 30,000 Aust and NZ, most of them in the few days either side of Anzac Day. It doesn't seem possible to me to restrict the Turkish access, but would not be fair in that case to restrict access by others who have travelled much further and paid much more to be there, especially when they constitute only one-twentieth of the number of local visitors.

A bit of education in respect might be a better option. Having said that, though, I myself laid down under the large tree in Shrapnel Valley one hot day and went to sleep. I didn't mean any disrespect; it probably just looks worse when it's done by a lot of people at once.

[Mat McLachlan]

Bryn,

I take your point, but I suppose it could be argued that it is the Anzac Commemorative Site that is struggling to cope with visitors, so it's here that restrictions on numbers should be imposed. This wouldn't affect the Turkish visitors, who generally don't attend the Aus/NZ Anzac Day service.

This isn't an entirely new concept - when the Australian War Memorial at Hyde Park Corner in London was opened, members of the public were invited to attend, but there was a limited number of free tickets (available via a website) to make sure the crowds were effectively managed. The tickets were snapped up pretty quickly, but a healthy balance was reached: a couple of thousand members of the public could attend, without any of the crowd-control dramas we're now seeing at Anzac Cove.

The first Anzac Day held at the Anzac Commemorative Site was in 2000 and already the site is massively over-crowded (it was, after all, only designed to accommodate 12,000 people). It seems to me that this problem is only going to get worse, and we've already passed the point of needing to take action. Drastic as it may seem, limiting numbers is the only real solution, unless we are happy to see the Anzac Commemorative Site keep expanding, and the road network, garbage disposal facilities and associated infrastructure expand with it.

Regarding the sleeping-in-cemeteries discussion, I doubt too many people would have a problem with you having a snooze under the tree in Shrapnel Valley Cemetery. They might, however, have a quiet word if you were actually sleeping on top of a grave, using the headstone as a pillow (as the news reports suggest). I just don't understand how anyone purporting to attend the dawn service to pay their respects can lie down on the graves of those they are there to honour.

Cheers,

Mat

PS: Please consider this as my entry for the Longest Reply award.

[Geoff S]

Matt,

I think it is good idea, but unfortunately the PM & the RSL have both stated that restrictions on the number of people allowed to attend the ceremony will not be considered for the Anzac site.

The PM has mentioned that he would like the RSL to be involved in planning future 'events'. I hope the RSL is up to the job, but I feel it would have to an improvement compared to what the Minister of Vet's Affairs & the Prime Minister's Dept have staged this year.

Cheers

Geoff S

[Mat McLachlan]

Thanks for that update Geoff. I reckon it's one of those 'watch this space' kind of things - if crowds keep growing, sooner or later there will be no option but to impose some restrictions. I doubt we'll see it in the next few years though.

Cheers,

Mat

[Geoff S]

yeah I know mate ,,, I have heard talk in the media of up to 100,000 visitors in April 2015. How do you reckon they will manage that 'event.'

They were hard pressed in August 1915 getting that many people in 'Old Anzac'.

Cheers

geoff S

[Guest missioner]

Bryn

As Sommeys' N.OcK, I had assumed that your rejection of his application was the reason that he took his own life yesterday. Among his possessions [found when the plane returned from the drop zone] however, we found a suicide note.

He confessed the realisation that he had in fact grown up amongst a lot of whingers, latent Exclusives and would-be thugs was simply too much to face.

That a pile of rubbish at Gallipoli would do the trick is indeed ironic. How disgusted the origional ANZACs would have been to see the place looking like one of those foreign rubbish tips. They would have had everlasting memories of neatly tended gardens, birds chirping etc etc.[no such thing as flies attracted by visitors discarding rubbish] as they wandered between the YMCA and their air-conditioned billets, pausing only to check the Scoreboard & the odds on offer with the bookies, [apparently they were interested in their chances of getting off]. It would be impossible for a Lighthorseman [say] to write in his diary, "Of all the ******** of Places, this has to be the.......,

The indignant white-shoe brigade will now attempt to ban the rubbish makers. A levy or entrance fee tacked on to the $20,000 they are prepared to pay for a Tour of the Battlefields is a small impost if it keeps the rabble out. They may stop to think whether prices paid to such fine & upstanding operators organised by the RSL, AWM, IWM etc include charges for removal of their rubbish, [can't imagine THEM leaving the plastic fighting gear etc lying around].

Sommey was amazed that he would ever take little Johnny's side, when he told his Fellow Australians to get Fair Dinkum. What harm did the rubbish do? At least it would probably now be recycled. How could "taking it with you" achieve that. A fair proportion of it may in fact have been scavenged. How un-Australian is that???

They used to award titles of Best Scavenger amongst the AIF,...... but Sommey didn't go into all that.

[Eceabat]

Just a quick update on future plans for work on the Peninsula. While the Prime Ministers of Australia, Turkey and New Zealand have agreed to set up two joint committees to study construction work and the archaeology of the battlefield, no details have been released as to who will sit on these committees, what their actual role will be or whether their findings will be binding on Turkey.

There is also no word on whether ongoing work or that planned for the immediate future will be halted until the committees are formed, meet, conduct their studies and hand down their findings.

Of course, it is too early to expect any such announcements on this yet, as the decision to set up these committees was only taken on Tuesday. However, there was a slight alarm bell rung when the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan, said on Wednesday that the National Parks Authority had plans to construct 140 kilometres of roads on the Peninsula and that only 40 or so kilometres of this had been completed.

While I applaud the decision to set up the joint committees I for one will be adopting a wait and see attitude to what happens next.

A brief word of praise for the thousands who turned out for Monday’s services on the Peninsula. Though I was appalled by the rubbish left behind and at people sleeping in the Lone Pine cemetery, the crowd was well behaved, sober and (napping and trash apart) respectful.

It was unfair of John Howard to blame the Turks for the lack of rubbish bins, his excuse for the rubbish left at the Dawn Service site. The head of the Gallipoli National Park, who I spoke to, had asked the company organising facilities for the Dawn Service (yes, it is contracted out) to provide bins and co-operation in keeping the site clean but the requests were refused.

If the Australian government can spend millions of dollars on setting up temporary seating, putting on a massive pre service show and hire a German company to do a light and sound performance, I think they could have stumped up the cash for renting some garbage bins.

Cheers

Bill

PS. the newly constructed road above ANZAC Cove and along the coastal strip did not improve traffic flow one iota on Monday. Nor, as its supporters claimed, did it mean that those attending the Dawn Service did not have to walk up to seven kilometres to the site, the parking arrangements for tour buses are totally independent of the road upgrade.

[Mat McLachlan]

PS. the newly constructed road above ANZAC Cove and along the coastal strip did not improve traffic flow one iota on Monday. Nor, as its supporters claimed, did it mean that those attending the Dawn Service did not have to walk up to seven kilometres to the site, the parking arrangements for tour buses are totally independent of the road upgrade.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bill,

Thanks for that great news. So we can now officially declare the roadworks were for cosmetic purposes only!

Cheers,

Mat

[MartinWills]

Ah,

But which roads are to be "constructed". I can think of several that I would describe as old unmetalled tracks which have had a layer or tarmac added which softens and flows in the heat. If these roads, for example the road fromn Gaba Tepe down the west coast through Alcitepe and on past Pink Farm down to Lancashire Landing, are simply to be reconstructed to a good standard I would have little if any complaint. Perhaps Bill can clarify this when further information is available?

[Eceabat]

Another update, from a document from the National Parks authority that I came across yesterday, combined with some information that I had passed on to me Friday night.

Among the roads listed to be upgraded are the one running across the Peninsula from Kilia Liman on the Dardanelles to the Gabatepe Museum. This would link up with the new and improved road that runs along the coastal strip in the ANAC sector which starts at the Museum and runs through to Embarkation Pier cemetery. No problem with that one, it takes heavy traffic and needs repair and upgrading and no major historical sites are at risk. So to, it seems that the road from the museum down to just short of Alcitepe, though little used at present, is also listed for an upgrade. Fine, no battlefield zones are at risk.

The road from Alcitepe along the Aegean flank of the Peninsula past Twelve Trees Copse and Pink Farm cemeteries and thence to Lancashire Cemetery and on to the village of Seddulbahir is included in the plans. Again, no major problem if done with a bit of care as the road will pass through the battlefield area and remains will be turned up. If these are dealt with in a sensitive manner and remaining areas of the battlefield not under cultivation are preserved, all well and good.

I made the point about human remains and damage to areas of the battlefield here as, with the construction of a new road from Alcitepe to the Turkish monument above Morto Bay, large numbers of human remains were dug up in the road work and just thrown to the side of the road. I an others walked the route of this road in early January, when most of the construction was complete. Large quantities of relics from the campaign, many French and Turkish, were unearthed and either dumped or removed. The same applies for human remains. There was also the problem that this road work was done in haste and, given the high level of Turkish bus traffic on this road, it has worn badly since being opened to traffic in January. This haste and poor quality of construction, also seen in the ANZAC coastal sector road, is a concern, as was the disregard for remains. In all works this needs to be addressed.

It appears that the coastal road running down the European shore of the Dardanelles from Eceabat, through Kilitbahir to Soganlidere and then inland to Alcitepe is also listed for an upgrade, which is a good thing as it is badly worn and carries most of the Turkish bus traffic. This poses little risk to heritage sites, except for the gate of the castle at Kilitbahir.

Another area were I know road work is to be carried out is in the Suvla sector, though this has to be confirmed from documents I trust my source. There is talk of roads out to the far end of Suvla Bay. There was also talk of putting in piers in Suvla Bay, at ANZAC Cove, Morto bay and both W and V beaches, though happily from a personal viewpoint, this has eased off of late. These were to be accompanied by picnic areas. Again personally speaking I rather like Suvla as it is.

I believe, though cannot confirm at this point that the upgraded road from Embarkation Pier will be extended to the village of Buyuk Anafartalar. Again, as long as sensitivity and careful planning are used, no major problem here, though the local farmers aren’t happy as they are set to lose some land in the widening process and with the construction of any car parks.

A matter of great concern are plans, announced on 18 March by the Turkish Prime Minister, that the road along Second Ridge in the ANZAC sector is to be upgraded. This road, which is in urgent need of repair, follows the route of no mans’ land for much of its length and any work carried out on the scale of that at ANZAC Cove would cause major harm to the topography and the historical fabric of the battlefield. It would also disinter human remains on a massive scale. It is this road I and many others are concerned about.

In addition, plans to put a car park and ceremonial site at Chunuk Bair, site of the New Zealand memorial are a worry. There are areas there where such construction would not gravely damage the terrain and others were it would.

Those are some of the proposed works that I know of or have heard about from sound sources. Others I have discounted, such as the light rail system along the coastal strip at ANZAC or the ski lifts from the Beach to Chunuk Bair, though both were put forward as solid suggestions in the past and resurface at times. Reports of a McDonalds at Ariburnu are wildly exaggerated.

Bill

[Ozzie]

Bill,

WHAT CAN WE DO?

Are they past listening to archeoligists, historians and people who are concerned with losing the integrity of this battlefield? Surely in Australia, One could hope that the concerned bodies, the Government, the RSL and the AWM could look to what is happening and make SOME sought of stand. Not brow beat the Turks, but retreat on their heads in the sand attitude to this debacle, admit they stuffed up and get some dialogue happening to halt this mess.

Surely someone in the upper echolons can see were this is headed. I am already sad that I was never able to afford to go to Gallipoli when it was relatively untouched. Now, I don't know that I would want to go, as I would have wanted to see it,as it was.

Yes, I am angry, but how can I not be, and who do I direct it at?

This is also bigger than Australia. There were other nationalties involved in 1915. I hope they take this up, as well.

Kim

[Eceabat]

Kim,

What we can do is keep on applying pressure at very possible opportunity, keep on raising this issue in every forum, and keep on following all developments both on the battlefields themselves and in the political and official arena.

Here’s a spot of interesting news that has just come to light in the Turkish press. An article quotes Osman Pepe, Turkey’s forestry and Environment Minister and who is responsible for Turkey’s national parks, as saying that the embassies of Australia and New Zealand have approached the government with a proposal to have 400 hectares of the ANZAC battlefield area designated as a "special cultural and heritage site". Hmmm, 400 hectares, doesn’t that correspond exactly with the area set out under the Lausanne Treaty of 1923 as granted in perpetuity to the Allied powers?

Pepe said that any such request would have to come through the Turkish Foreign Ministry, presumably from the Australian and New Zealand governments. This could also be a sop for the failure of Howard to get National Heritage listing for the area.

Again, what this request means and what such a designation as a "special cultural and heritage site" would mean has yet to be made clear. However, it also could indicate, after six years of disengagement, the Australian and New Zealand authorities are returning to the field.

As to whether they are "past listening to archaeologists, historians and people who are concerned with losing the integrity of this battlefield" I would say that of late, they, referring to both the Australian and Turkish governments and their respective officials, have been forced to do so, at least for a time. Hence the announcement of the two joint committees (see earlier posting). However, whether these committees, the request for special status for the ANZAC area and promises of sensitivity in future projects come to anything we must wait and see.

I wouldn’t put too much faith in officials of the AWM or the RSL. I listened with shock as one senior AWM historian, leading the Memorial’s annual tour to the battlefields, was interviewed on Australian television while standing above the cove. He told the camera that no major damage had been done to the area, the road and the excavations were not excessive, that no human remains or relics had been disturbed and the whole issue was blown out of proportion.

Behind the AWM rep was the beach, covered in dumped soil, littered with broken asphalt and waste concrete washed out onto the rocks and to his left a 30 metre high cliff face recently created. Good thing the road works hadn’t been excessive then eh? The RSL hasn't been too strong on the issue either, though went to town over the rubbish and sleeping in cemeteries. As an aside, in 2000 the worst instance of littering I saw on April 25 came from an RSL tour group who left the plastic packs for their picnic lunch, coke cans and debris on the grass outside Lone Pine Cemetery. Some were offended when my wife and I spent half an hour cleaning it all up. As I said, just an aside.

Concerning your uncertainty over coming over, do it. The cove area is irredeemably damaged but so much of the battlefields still remain in the ANZAC sector, Suvla is still a wonderful experience to walk over and even the Helles sector has many untouched or little damaged areas, Gully Ravine is an experience, as is Kerevisdere and the landing beaches.

[Ozzie]

Thankyou, Bill, for your reply. It will be some time before I can get to Gallipoli, hence my worry. You have settled my fears a little and I suppose the trip would be what you make of it. I will try to keep pressure by emailing regularly, the Government sections involved, but I'm afraid the emails are probably deleted without being read. I only wish that all Australians would feel strongly enough about this to protest. Then, fear of losing votes, might, as it has in the past on other issues, get somethhing done.

All we can do is hope.

Kim

[Aaron Nelson]

Hi Pals,

Thought I had better add my view on this. All the points raised in this topic are valid, heres another take on it. Being a New Zealander, Anzac and Anzac day is very dear to my heart and it was an intregal part of how I was raised, its as sacred as rugby. However, I do feel sometimes New Zealanders and Australians tend to put to much emphasis on the Gallopoli landings themselves. New Zealand lost the lives of 2700 kiwis during the 8 month campaign at Gallipoli. However we lost close to that number in a SINGLE DAY at Passchendale. (excuse my spelling) . My point being, the ANZAC campaign was only the begining of the whole terrible mess and I think our time in France is often overlooked, those battles in France were far more damaging to New Zealand in terms of loss of life than the Gallipoli campaign. Im taking nothing away from ANZAC, but thats not where we lost the majority of our soldiers. 2700 in Gallipoli....18000 all together, and the vast majority of that 18000 was killed in France. So which area of operations is more important in terms of remembrance.......??? Worth at least a think about and puts a new perspective on things doesn't it??

cheers Aaron.

[Mat McLachlan]

Aaron,

It's a good point and, to be honest, my area of greatest interest is the Western Front. However, I am concerned when any WWI battlefield (or any other battlefield for that matter) is threatened, no matter where it is. You will see from other threads on the forum that I've also spoken out against developments on Western Front sites as well.

The Anzac Cove development is, unfortunately, the lastest chapter in the ongoing stuggle to preserve our Great War heritage.

Cheers,

Mat