ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Guest KiwiKeith]

According to an article on the news tonight in New Zealand. The turkish government have halted the development, and rightfully so.

It is only 8 weeks until the 90th comemorations at ANZAC cove. I guess they did not want to face thousands of upset Aussie's and Kiwi's again !!

KiwiKeith

[Guest CGI]

KK,

Yes that is true. They seem to be reconsidering.

On the other hand - according to the latest news I got from the Peninsula - the work below the Sphinx (cfr. pic above) is still going on.

As for 25th April, there is another date, and one only two weeks away from now : they must also think about the celebrations that have been planned for 18th March.

CGI

[Auimfo]

I've sent an email to the AWM, RSL, Minister for Vet Affairs and a couple of media outlets outlining the situation as CGI has informed us.

I wondered if they knew about the work and if not whether they should make some enquiries about the conduct of the construction (or should that read destruction).

I also included a couple of the photos and a link to the site with the rest. Hopefully, between them, they can get to the bottom of this and put a halt to any more unnecessary damage.

Tim L.

[leanes-trench]

I have to agree with those of you who say that the people of Turkey cannot be expected to hold back on development simply because there are those of us who appreciate retaining a locale's historical symbolism. For those of you who have visited Gallipoli, though, and Anzac especially, this sympathy does not apply. The land was ceded to Australia and New Zealand after the First World War specifically so that it would be retained as a living memorial, and would not be developed. Thus, by its actions, Turkey is in violation of the Treaty of Lausanne.

Additionally, if all parties had agreed on widening the road - no discussion on the matter seems ever to have been held, since the Turkish government is now investigating the matter - it wouldn't take much imagination to come up with an alternative site for dumping the soil. As an American, I have to say that this sounds like something our government would do. Of course we could claim afterwards that Islamic terrorists were to blame, but that's another matter.

The City of Boston requires that, before any new buildings are erected, an archeological study of the area must first be made, which would include excavations. Surely somebody could have had the foresight to do this?

I am extremely disappointed in those who have allowed the building to take place, for they have done so without getting permission from their own government, or from those of Australia and New Zealand. They exhibited the same thoughtless behavior when they paved over Turkish Quinn's, and clearly have no interest in the historical importance of the area. Their interest, and that of the individuals who commissioned the construction, was purely economic and if the Turkish government truly is bothered by the destruction, those responsible should be punished. But no matter what action might be taken against those responsible, nothing can repair the damage that has now been done. From an historical perspective, it is simply unforgivable.

How any member of this forum can tolerate these actions is beyond me.

[Max]

The land was ceded to Australia and New Zealand after the First World War specifically so that it would be retained as a living memorial, and would not be developed. Thus, by its actions, Turkey is in violation of the Treaty of Lausanne.

Could you please tell me specifically which Article of the Treaty of Lausanne that this statement relates to?

The word "cede" , (meaning to give up a possession, claim, or right) is not mentioned at all in the treaty, the same goes for "Australia" or "New Zealand" as far as I can see.

Andy

[gcwilson]

See latest article in the Sydney Morning Herald (3 March 2005) at:

http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/02/1109700541903.html

[leanes-trench]

Quoting from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's Memorial Register Number 6 (Lone Pine Memorial), page 5:

"The Anzac Area, as defined by the Treaty of Lausanne, is an area of about 4 square kilometres, permanently conceded by the Turkish Government in its entirety on account of the number of cemeteries and unlocated graves that it contains."

[jim_davies]

Andy,

ARTICLES 128 through 136 refer in detail to the "grant to the Governments of the British Empire, France and Italy respectively and in perpetuity the land within the Turkish territory in which are situated the graves, cemetries, ossuaries or memorials of their soldiers...."

Jim

[Simmo]

This was covered by the ABC on their early evening news programme, yesterday. I was too dumbstruck to take in what was the reason for the work, and what the current situation is....sorry.

Simmo.

[Max]

Andy,

ARTICLES 128 through 136 refer in detail to the "grant to the Governments of the British Empire, France and Italy respectively and in perpetuity the land within the Turkish territory in which are situated the graves, cemetries, ossuaries or memorials of their soldiers...."

Jim

Jim

Article 128 is of great importance when considering this matter and here it is in full.

ARTICLE 128.

The Turkish Government undertakes to grant to the Governments of the British

Empire, France and Italy respectively and in perpetuity the land within the

Turkish territory in which are situated the graves, cemeteries, ossuaries or

memorials of their soldiers and sailors who fell in action or died of wounds,

accident or disease, as well as those of prisoners of war and interned civil-

ians who died in captivity.

The Turkish Government will also grant to those Governments the land which

the Commissions provided for in Article 130 shall consider necessary for the

establishment of cemeteries for the regrouping of graves, for ossuaries or

memorials.

The Turkish Government undertakes further to give free access to these

graves, cemeteries, ossuaries and memorials, and if need be to authorise the

construction of the necessary roads and pathways.

The Greek Government undertakes to fulfil the same obligations in so far as

concerns its territory.

The above provisions shall not affect Turkish or Greek sovereignty over the

land thus granted.

I have highlighted the sections that I feel show that contrary to what leanes-trench was saying the Turkish Government are actually complying in full with this particular article of the Treaty of Lausanne and are improving access (however disasterous that that may be). The 2nd highlighted point also shows that as Turkey has full sovereignty over the area the Australian or New Zealand governments did not need to be consulted.

I think that the CWGC are going a little too far when they use the term conceded as this is not quite true, granted is the more correct term even though the term "concessionary government" is used in Article 131 (I think this must have sneaked under the wire).

Regardless of the legality of the situation it would not have taken much brain power to find a less sensitive area to dump the excavated soil.

Andy

[Guest CGI]

Andy,

Judging the behaviuour of Turkish authorities with the Lausanne Treaty at hand is one thing, but I'm afraid that in doing so, you miss the heart of the matter.

What I want to blame here is not so much some legal transgression as well the complete lack of consideration they show for the preservation of a historically important landscape. Even if you are legally entitled to destroy a piece of heritage, this does not mean that we should not raise our voice against such behaviour. If I were to buy some painting by an old master at an auction tomorrow, I would probably have every right to paint my new property pink with green stars for extra effect, but it is very questionable, whether this would gain me any respect from people who do care.

I know one cannot expect much expertise and historical awareness, from the beaurocrats now populating Milli Park at Gallipoli, as too many non-heritage related factors are in play there. It would be a mistake however, to narrow the discussion about their decisions to a simple Turkey-Anzac conflict. What they have done to their own heritage in the past, is perhaps even worse than what is happening now at Anzac. Just have a look at how they managed to construct a 200 m-long parking lot exactly over the spot where the greatest number of their martyrs lost there lives during the 19th May 1915 attack. They could not have chosen a worse place, even if they tried. Is this ignorance? Bad taste? No tradition? Or just a total lack of respect?

I'm afraid it might well be the sum of all these, combined with some other non-history related, much more political, religious and materialistic motives. One can be sure of one thing however : if no-one ever raises his voice against their actions, they will not stop, and things will only get worse.

And that is why it is such a pity that no other foreign authorities were consulted before the works started. Such talks could have prevented the rash decisions that were taken now. If you ask me, they were not even bothered by considerations that had to do with the preservation of heritage, not even aware of the fact that other people might have a different opinion. They had the right to do it, hadn't they?

Here in Europe, where I live, public opinion nor the authorities would probably accept such an attitude. Considering the fact that Turkey wants to join Europe, I'm afraid they'll have to learn a lot in this field as well.

CGI

[Max]

Judging the behaviuour of Turkish authorities with the Lausanne Treaty at hand is one thing, but I'm afraid that in doing so, you miss the heart of the matter.

Hello CGI

I'm not judging anyone by the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne, it was leanes-trench who raised the issue and my posting was an attempt to clarify the legal position.

Andy

[Auimfo]

The legalities of the issue are irrelevant. Whether the construction work is permissible doesn't matter. What does matter is the way in which this work is conducted and it's affect on the area's heritage.

Obviously someone, somewhere isn't doing their job properly and this disgraceful attempt at roadworks was allowed to proceed without any consultation.

What should have taken place is a proper examination of what improvements are 'necessary' and the best way to conduct them with the least amount of disturbance to the fabric of the place.

The current contractors should be made to restore the area as best as possible to what it was before they began.

Does anyone know if the damage can be repaired to any extent and the beach cleared of the debris. I know that there will always be some damage left as a result but can this be minimized by any restorative work. I'm willing to pack my shovel and go and make a start on the backfilling!!!

It appears that this issue has finally made the news here in Aus. Unless some speedy repairs are done, all those going over for the 90th Anniversary are in for a rude shock I feel.

Tim L.

[jim_davies]

Andy,

Point conceded on Article 128.

It's still a terrible shame, let's hope that the perhaps the authorities in question make some changes to what's been happening and try to repair what damage they can.

Jim

[Guest CGI]

Latest update from the Australian press.

CGI

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sacrilege at Anzac Cove

By Frank Walker

March 6, 2005

The Sun-Herald

Human remains from the Gallipoli conflict are believed to have been dug up and

destroyed by Turkish workers as they widen a road for tourist buses on Anzac

Cove.

Turkish authorities yesterday decided to resume building a 20-metre-wide road

which has already obliterated a large section of the beach at the historic

Gallipoli landing site.

Work was stopped last week after outrage that workers had dug into the

hillside and dumped tonnes of rubble over the beach where Anzacs stormed

ashore on April 25, 1915.

Historians say Anzac and Turkish soldiers are buried in the hillside and on

the beach.

More than 80 metres of the 500-metre-long beach is now covered in rubble and

it is impossible to walk from one end to the other.

The change has caused the rest of the beach to erode rapidly and the beach

where Anzacs stormed ashore is now barely a few metres wide.

Remains of a wooden pier built by the Anzacs is now buried under the rubble

and access has been cut to an Australian war cemetery at the top of the hill.

"This is where many Australians who died as they stormed ashore at dawn on

that first day of the landing, April 25, 1915, were buried," said Australian

writer and historian Bill Sellars, who lives at Gallipoli.

He said the roadworks must have also dug up human remains as many Australians

and Turks were hastily buried on the beach and cliffside.

"I am always finding bones on that hillside from soldiers that were buried

there in the first few days of the battle to get ashore.

"When I saw the damage done to Anzac Cove, I was reduced to tears.

"This was one of the best-preserved battlefield sites of World War I and now

it has been massively damaged."

Mr Sellars said Anzac Cove had always been kept very much like it was in 1915.

Then, the Australian troops had dug out a wide path to bring material ashore.

Years later, this was turned into a sealed road by the Turks, but this year

they began widening it to 20 metres to create bus parking areas.

"Australians who had seen Anzac Cove before would not recognise it now," he

said.

Veterans' Affairs Minister De-Anne Kelly said the Office of Australian War

Graves was holding talks with the Turkish government "to progress the

situation".

RSL President Bill Crews said the roadworks should stop, so experts can see if

remains are being disturbed.

If human remains have been disturbed by the digging they should be reinterred

with dignity," he said.

But Turkish media reported yesterday that the park authority had decided to

resume work on widening the road to get it ready for the influx of tourists

expected for Anzac Day.

More than 20,000 Australians, New Zealanders and British people are expected

to attend the dawn service on April 25 to commemorate the 90th anniversary of

the landing.

Mr Sellars said it will be difficult to fit them all in at the specially built

dawn service site, which can accommodate only about 12,000.

More than 2 million Turks are expected to visit the area this year.

[BatterySergeantMajor]

More than 20,000 Australians, New Zealanders and British people are expected

to attend the dawn service on April 25 to commemorate the 90th anniversary of

the landing.

Mr Sellars said it will be difficult to fit them all in at the specially built

dawn service site, which can accommodate only about 12,000.

More than 2 million Turks are expected to visit the area this year.

Maybe the Turkish Government would see things different if the Australian and New Zealand people would stay at home to demonstrate their disapproval.

Erwin

[Guest CGI]

If you want to see the latest Gallipoli news on New-Zealand TV, this is possible on the Net. Station = TVNZ and news programme = 'Close up'. Can be found at :

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvone_minisite_stor...7%3fformat=html

CGI

[Mat McLachlan]

I strongly disagree with forum members who say we can't halt progress. This is a NATIONAL PARK. A SACRED SITE. Not just to us Aussies, Brits and Kiwis, but to the Turks themselves. Don't even briefly consider the notion that this is similar to proposed roadworks in the Ypres Salient, for example, that are designed to improve standards for locals - this is a largely uninhabited area, and the roadworks are only for one reason: to make the area more accessible for tourists. It will be a terrible irony if tourism pressure causes the destruction of those sites the tourists are coming to see.

It seems to me that the real issue is devising a system to effectively manage a large number of tourists in an area that is not designed to accommodate them. The first solution would have to be limiting the numbers who attend Anzac Day services. Seems harsh, I know, but if organisers were to issue in advance a maximum of 12,000 (free) tickets to the service each year, the numbers could be managed, the environment protected and the senseless destruction we have seen with these road works avoided.

Mat

[southafricawargraves]

Hi all,

We really have started a war with this topic have we not? However based on the one photo that I have seen posted in regards to the dumping of dirt at Anzac Cove, I'd just like to say that it is fact just south of Anzac Cove proper.

The bunker in the foreground is south of Ari Burnu cemetery, just north of Beach cemetery and directly across the road from Shapnel Valley. This stretch of ground is not generally viewed as Anzac Cove which actually lies north of this photo. If you were to make a left from this spot and literally climb up the dirt pile you would see high cliff terraces.

The ground here is extremely unstable and prone to dislodging. It would not surprise me that the ground gave way to a landslide and a crew simply came through and paved a path through, thus dumping loads of dirt as you see in the photo. The road here is very narrow and would barely qualify for a double lane.

The second photo which is north of the Sphinx has been like that for some time. Water trickling down the side of the hill valleys have created flood conditions in some years which has eroded the topography of the area. This photo would have been taken just north of Anzac Cove, near Embrkation Pier cemetery and the CWGC cottages. There is nothing there to disturb except dirt. The ground gives way to beach in a matter of metres. Any clearing that is done is likely for a turnaround spot for tour companies, of which at present have no place to turn in the immediate area. I have seen them turn around on the grass at Anzac Cove (to me a more disturbing site) so this would be an improvement.

Another Pal did make mention of that fact that not only is this a honoured site for Aussies and Kiwis it is viewed the same by Turks. They do have the utmost respect for the area and any mass construction would have been planned out the best way they could. I spent over 2 and half months in Gallipoli and to tell you the truth saw more damage done by Aussie and Kiwi tourists than by the Turks. The area needs constant garbage collection and there are only a few wheelie-bins out there. They rarely get emptied and they are usually full to overflowing.

I have witnessed Aussie and Kiwi tourists in awe of Anzac Cove, sit back and reflect and eat their lunch and then simply toss the bag and leftover contents on the ground and board the tour bus to leave. Anzac Day is the worst day of the year for this.

The area itself is also very political. Full control of the site is wished by Aussies, Kiwis, Turks, tour companies, historians, etc, etc. Nothing can be done in the area without first consulting about 5 different agencies. So something as simple as garbage collection and getting a few new wheelie-bins is a bureaucratic nightmare.

The best thing I found was that myself and an Aussie that were long-termers did was toss a garbage bag to the backpacker tourists and tell them that when the tour was over they should fill the bag with trash and leave it by the wheelie-bins. You would be surprised at how something so simple as giving someone the right tools to do the job would be. We cleaned up Anzac Cove in a matter of weeks. I considered hiring local kids to come out and pick garbage but again it was felt amongst us long-termers to be a potentially dangerous thing to do, lest too much word got out. Having someone hire a kid to pick up garbage could be very embarassing to those agencies that should be doing this job to begin with.

My point is that I don't think we should be Turk bashing here, in 2 years of travel in 20 countries, I found them to be some of the friendliest, most genuine and down to earth people I have ever met. The problem lies with all that visit the area. If you can't step up to the plate and contribute to solving the problem you really have no leg to stand on when pointing fingers.

I'm sure to get some backlash to this post, so let's hear it.

[paul guthrie]

Well Ralph the bashing wont come from me, sensible sound post. WHile I have not been in Turkey nearly as much as you have been twice and agree they are fine folks.

A poor farmer in the Suvla area pulled our bus out when it was stuck for the 2d time that trip, that area. The British guy in charge of our party gave him a piss poor tip for his trouble! 1st time we were stuck young army blokes ( for you Richard!) brought us melons etc, fine folk the Turk!

[southafricawargraves]

Thanks Paul.

I myself have been given rides on backs of tractors to the cems.

Have also been welcomed into Turk farmers houses and offered a glass of tea (chay) and then had them dig out pails of treats for me to look over, that being their battlefield finds that they have uncovered tilling the soil.

One guy even offered to take me fishing with his family.

Like I said in 2 years of travel in 20 countries, the Turks were my favorite. Ecebaet the town on the other side of the peninsula remains my second favorite place that I stayed at long term.

[Guest CGI]

Ralph,

Your explanation has fully convinced me.

I am so sorry, but I had it all wrong : there is no damage being done to Anzac Cove whatsoever, but to another place which is not called like that. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Cheers,

CGI

[Guest Brissie]

How refreshing to see that things aren't as desperate as was understandably thought.

Just a couple of minor obsevations though.

Earlier in this discussion TSS asked for an explanation of the bunker appearing in the relevant pictures. The answer has not been given as yet.

The reported behaviour of the Aussie & Kiwi tourists discarding theyre trash before rejoining the bus is most disturbing. What has happened to long standing traditions and memories of these people?

One can only assume that there were separate busses for each nation. No-one who has toured with a composite Aust/NZ group can imagine that valuable projectiles/junk would be discarded, and not put to good use on the journey home, particularly if the item was small enough tob despatched underarm.

[southafricawargraves]

Ta Da!!!

I figured this was the case. Now those two photos are shown facing north. Ari Burnu cemetery is around the bend a bit and way further down yet is Anzac Cove.

The bunker from the first photo is from WW2 when they were guarding the coast against possible German invasion. There are a tonne of these scattered all over the place on the Gallipoli peninsula. That particular is extremely dangerous as it rests on a slipped rock base. The ones down at Helles are make out joints and beer halls for the local kids, generally filled with all kinds of empty bottles and graffiti.

[southafricawargraves]

A further note.

The majority of tourists at Anzac Cove average about 20-25 years old.

They are mostly backpackers.

Fact - Anzac Cove cemeteries are the most visited CWGC cemeteries in the world, seeing in excess of 100000 visitors a year.

The tour busses are not separated by nationality and they run daily from the local hostels in Ecebaet and Cannakale.

Helles sector tends to see more Turkish visitors.

The only people I ever saw at Suvla cemeteries were historians like ourselves, some of them are really hard to get to.