ANZAC Cove Destroyed !

[Guest Brissie]

Ta!

TaTa!!

[Guest lilydalelil]

historians like ourselves, some of them are really hard to get to.

Amen to that too.

[Andrew P]

Another Pal did make mention of that fact that not only is this a honoured site for Aussies and Kiwis it is viewed the same by Turks. They do have the utmost respect for the area and any mass construction would have been planned out the best way they could. I spent over 2 and half months in Gallipoli and to tell you the truth saw more damage done by Aussie and Kiwi tourists than by the Turks. The area needs constant garbage collection and there are only a few wheelie-bins out there. They rarely get emptied and they are usually full to overflowing.

I have witnessed Aussie and Kiwi tourists in awe of Anzac Cove, sit back and reflect and eat their lunch and then simply toss the bag and leftover contents on the ground and board the tour bus to leave. Anzac Day is the worst day of the year for this.

The area itself is also very political. Full control of the site is wished by Aussies, Kiwis, Turks, tour companies, historians, etc, etc. Nothing can be done in the area without first consulting about 5 different agencies. So something as simple as garbage collection and getting a few new wheelie-bins is a bureaucratic nightmare.

The best thing I found was that myself and an Aussie that were long-termers did was toss a garbage bag to the backpacker tourists and tell them that when the tour was over they should fill the bag with trash and leave it by the wheelie-bins. You would be surprised at how something so simple as giving someone the right tools to do the job would be. We cleaned up Anzac Cove in a matter of weeks. I considered hiring local kids to come out and pick garbage but again it was felt amongst us long-termers to be a potentially dangerous thing to do, lest too much word got out. Having someone hire a kid to pick up garbage could be very embarassing to those agencies that should be doing this job to begin with.

My point is that I don't think we should be Turk bashing here, in 2 years of travel in 20 countries, I found them to be some of the friendliest, most genuine and down to earth people I have ever met. The problem lies with all that visit the area. If you can't step up to the plate and contribute to solving the problem you really have no leg to stand on when pointing fingers.

I'm sure to get some backlash to this post, so let's hear it.

Hmmm, I must have been at Anzac Cove at some good times as I have never witnessed the wholesale dumping of rubbish by these antipodean backpackers. Not that I'm doubting your word Ralph.

The times I have been there and witnessed people eating lunch they seem to take the rubbish with them which I'd say is the sensible thing to do.

[Guest CGI]

Ralph,

The fact that my irony seems to have gone unnoticed surprised me already.

For your convenience : one more pic, this time with text, which will perhaps be able to convince you at last that Anzac Cove is not North Beach.

Sigh ! CGI

[Guest CGI]

Better get serious again : what follows is worse than some empty coke cans.

This is an e-mail I got this morning (10th March 2005) from Gallipoli. I thought it was disturbing enough to post it here :

-----------------------

Just got a call, the bulldozers went into the northern half

of the hills above the Cove this morning. Little Ari Burnu has an earth

excavator on top of it. My informant, an Australian historian and very sound,

was in a state of shock.

So, there goes the first trench stormed on 25 April and the site where the first

Turkish fell.

Square that with this statement from the Turk Foreign

Ministry Wednesday : "This is our own historical heritage, and it is the heritage

of other countries too, and we respect that heritage"

Am heading out there soon.

-----------------------

CGI

[Guest Brissie]

CGI

It may be hard to believe, but I fell for the "Its another Place" line.

My comments were a weird way of expressing relief at the mistaken "Happy Ending".

SORRY!

[Max]

CGI

I really don't want ot get into the rights and wrongs of what the Turks are actually doing but could you confirm when the picture with the "Anzac Cove" stone was taken? I ask because in the top right of the photo there appears to be a landslip/earth dump already at the spot you highlighted in your earlier photos. It seems to have been there some time as vegetation is growing on it.

Andy

[Guest CGI]

Andy,

I can not give you a precise date, but the photo must have been taken some 5 years ago. It's well possible you can see a small landslide in it.

This might have been caused by roadworks. After winter, the coastal road often showed all kinds of damage because of the weather and was then -sometimes- fixed by the authorities in preparation for Anzac Day. Usually this work consisted of minor repair jobs, sometimes they were somewhat bigger. Quality of the work was never very good though : in summer, when heat set in, the road started showing all kinds of 'bulbs' in the asphalt, which could seriously damage your car if you were not careful.

If you ask me, what you noticed in the picture was rather a small landslide, caused by water coming down the deres (like Anzac Gully for instance) with the winter rains. This happens regularly, but is never permanent, as the sand that lands on the beach that way is washed away again before long. It's the natural course of things, and has always been like that. The landslide caused by the roadworks now, is a completely different story though : if they keep working carelessly this way, and they have started again despite all promises made, I'm afraid there will not be much of a beach left to be visited by the increased number of tourists they hope to attract.

A last point, which has not been raised here yet, but must not be ignored, is the fact that since 1915 the water level of the sea has become higher. This can be observed everywhere on the Peninsula, not only at Anzac. The old coastal road at the foot of the cliffs between X-Beach and Y-Beach at Helles has al but vanished. And as we are taling about a rocky surface here, this can not be attributed to erosion.

I hope this answers your question.

Greetings, CGI

[Auimfo]

CGI,

The sarcasm wasn't lost on me and if you can fit me in to your suitcase I'll come with you!! I still can't believe the feeble response our Gov't has given this destruction - and now it's started again. I would love to go into detail about the promised heritage listing etc etc but that would probably breach forum etiquette.

Ralph,

How do I respond? Obviously you're not Australian nor a Kiwi. This isn't meant as a 'put-down' but rather an explanation as to why you may not fully understand the meaning of Anzac Cove to us 'down-under'. Although being half a world away from Oz, Anzac Cove is possibly the most Australian place on earth. In some sense it can be considered as the spiritual heart of our nation that makes us what we are today. Any attempts to damage or destroy it goes straight the the essence of who we are and how we perceive ourselves.

(I'm not sure if this is very clear in meaning and if someone else can explain it better please do so.)

Perhaps all the rubbish you saw was actually on North Beach because you have obviously mistaken it as Anzac Cove. The photos CGI posted from beginning to end ARE Anzac Cove - of that there can be no doubt.

Tim L.

[Guest Brissie]

Ralph.

My apology to CGI might, with hindsight, have been extended to you also. I wasn't trying to draw you into any us and them argument.

You answered the specific question posed by TSS, thank you.

From re-reading your total submissions, I cannot doubt that you not only appreciate the significance & sacredness of the battle areas, the cemeteries & memorials, but have done your bit in helping protect those very "things".

I personally interpret your mentioning the litter problem at Anzac Cove as an indication of your frustration with the insensetivity of today's visitors. By sheer numbers these visitors may be seen as representing Australia & New Zealand's national attitudes. Others 'over here' may simply be saying that is not a valid case.

This is not Working !!!!!!!!!!!!!

one last try

Ralph

We are all on the one side!

[Martin Brown]

Members may be interested to know that the Westminster All Party War Graves & Battlefield Heritage Group is taking an interest in this. Their details are at:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...211/memi429.htm

There is also an Anglo-Turkey All Party Group you might want to address your concerns to.

And ICOMOS, who've already been mentioned on this topic, might be useful.

The battlefield archaeology forum is also making its own representations.

My own view is that if you have declared a site a national park for it's cultural and natural resources you don't then destroy the very thing that gives it significance.

[gcwilson]

There has been a belated response from the Australian Government in regard to this matter. Dana Vale, when Minister for Veterans Affairs made a request for an upgrade of roads in the Anzac area. It is unclear if the form and extent of the upgrades were ever assessed by an appropriate government instrumentatlity in Australia - Veterans Affairs is not the appropriate point of contact. If there had been an assessment it should have come from the Australian Heritage Council - PM John Howard made an announcement in 2003 in that the creation of the new National Heritage List (administered by the AHC) would have Gallipoli as Item 1. Oversight would have then fallen to the AHC. The listing hasn't happened and the loose cannons in Veterans Affairs do not appear to have consulted anyone with the necessary expertise to provide advice.

There are ways of managing access to sites - all that is required is a bit of clever and considered thinking - in conservation areas it's simply not appropriate to treat roads as if they're just another national highway.

Just as an aside there have been recent posts suggesting that the disturbance shown below the Sphinx was the product of flooding - having spent the best part of 25 years monitoring, assessing and supervising roadworks and other construction work the evidence shown in the photograph is inconsistent with 'flooding' or any other form of erosion - a road bed is a road bed.

[michaeldr]

It's our Gallipoli work

Samantha Maiden

March 11, 2005

FOR a week, Turkey has been accused of ripping up a road and disturbing war graves on Anzac Cove, when the truth is it was only acting on a request from Australia.

Veterans Affairs Minister Danna Vale wrote to the Turkish Government asking for the road to be upgraded to cater for the increasing numbers of Australian and New Zealand tourists making pilgrimages to the area.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer revealed in the parliament yesterday that Ms Vale was the reason for the controversial roadworks.

But he said the Turkish ambassador had again reassured him that no remains had been uncovered during the roadworks.

"The member for Hughes, in her capacity as the Minister for Veterans Affairs, in August last year wrote to the Turkish authorities and explained that she thought there was a need for improvement in some of the road systems, for safety reasons," he told parliament.

for the full text see http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/st...55E2702,00.html

[Auimfo]

she thought there was a need for improvement in some of the road systems

Hmmm... me thinks she was a perhaps a little broad in her request. I wouldn't think she meant right on top of Anzac Cove.

[Max]

I wouldn't think she meant right on top of Anzac Cove.

As "The letter is not being released." then we may never know.

[Guest CGI]

Quote :

<A spokesman for the Veterans Affairs Minister, De-Anne Kelly, said yesterday Australia's letter of request to Turkish authorities would not be released publicly.

"The letter is not being released. That's all we're saying," he said.> (Art. The Australian)

What the spokesman did not realize though, was the fact that, in reality, he was saying

a whole lot more than he could imagine.

If there was nothing fishy in that letter, why all this secrecy then? Who could blame De Anne Kelly for simply asking the Turkish authorities to repair the road and make it safe for traffic again?

Sooo.... is it such a far-fetched presumption then, that there were other things in that letter as well? Things perhaps that might upset the public opinion and not prove to be very good for a political career?

And would it be even more far-fetched to think that this might at the same time be an explanation for the strangely weak stance taken by the government in this affair?

"That's all we're saying", said the spokesman. Oh yes, of course.

CGI

[Max]

Sooo.... is it such a far-fetched presumption then, that there were other things in that letter as well? Things perhaps that might upset the public opinion and not prove to be very good for a political career?

Its not too far fatched, but, and its a big but, it doesn't necessarily mean that anything untoward is in the letter. Releasing correspondence like this would set a precedent that no government would actively seek to set.

Journalist to No. 10 spokesman "Can you confirm that the Prime minister is having an afair with Gordon Brown"

No. 10 Spokesman "No comment"

Journalist "Today a number 10 spokesman refused to deny that the Prime minister is having an affair with Gordon Brown"

Andy

[michaeldr]

This from the Turkish Daily News

“The widening and arrangement operation of the coastal road on Anzac Cove has been carried out with the greatest of care and fastidiousness. No remains have been disturbed during the construction process,” said the ministry in a written statement issued on Tuesday. “Reports by various press organizations claiming that road construction efforts have damaged or altered historical graves are baseless.”

The ministry also stated that they have opened an investigation to inspect the controversial site with a delegation that includes the Australian ambassador to Turkey Jenny Hayward-Jones.

For the full text see

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=7995

Hopefully we will also see something of Ambassador Hayward-Jones’ comments after the site inspection

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Auimfo]

The Gov't and much of the media seem to be focusing their attention to 'damaged graves or remains' and although this is a crucial point it does not get to the heart of the matter. Even if no graves or remains were disturbed it does not justify the destruction of the landscape simply for carparking and bus turning circles.

It seems to me that the weak response from the Gov't and their attempts to hide the true issue (that they've stuffed up) is by deflecting attention away and using positive spin to focus on graves/remains.

It's like saying "Elevators and a tourist cafe have been installed inside the Great Pyramid but we've saved the mummies from any damage."

It appears there are those who value themselves and their careers higher than that of the nation they serve.

Tim L.

(sorry if this post pushes the limit of Forum rules re: current political comment)

[baby700]

The problem here is not that they are disturbing war graves; but the destruction of historical tissue of the such a symbolic area.

It seems the australians (authorities and RSL), surprisingly, are insensitive in this point and are interested only with the official war graves (are they intact or not? Yes they are). For the Turkish authorities, we know already, there is no hope.

So it's clear they made some deal about this construction (destruction) and shared the shame also.

Australians saying 'if you didn't touch our graves, go on, make a new formula 1 road' and the Turks 'Why not a highway, more buses, more money, that's the historical way, aha-aha, we liked.'

They cut the Plugge's, they divided Anzac Cove, they modified totaly Hell Spit, they put new car parks just in the middle of battlefields.

Already they destroyed Turkish Quinn's, Rhododendron Ridge, Achibaba, V Beach and Northern Anzac sector (Turkish side crossed by the forest roads).

Recently they asphalted the old Krithia road in French sector. Nobody knows and asks where are the bones, remnants, artifacts.

By the way, where are the bones of Lieutenant Muharrem of 27th. Turkish Regiment and 60 man, who defended Plugge's Plateau during 1 hour versus 1500 Australian soldiers? Where are their graves? Or, where are their names?

[Guest CGI]

Baby 700,

To answer your last question about the remains of Lt. Muharrem and his men :

That they do not have a grave is obvious, but if their bones still exist, there can only be one place where they could possibly rest : in a CWGC cemetery.

There is a reason for this seemingly contradictory fact : after the war, when the War Graves Commission came to the Peninsula to construct the cemeteries, they were faced with a problem. Many corpses that had been lying out in no man's land for 4 years, could not be identified anymore as being Allied or Turkish. As something had to be done, a simple decision was taken : no man's land was split in half and all remains lying at the Allied side were considered to be Allied and were buried as such in the cemeteries. Those at the Turkish side remained were they were lying.

The different countries involved in the 1915 campaign had their own policies : the British buried all remains in cemeteries, the French did so too, but also constructed 'ossuaires' (mass graves for bones) for unidentifiable remains. The Turks never buried the remains of their dead after the war. When asked for an explanation, the answer invariably was that there was no need for that, as they considered the entire Peninsula as one big war grave. Not perhaps our way to look upon the matter, but a feeling one should respect all the same.

There is something else though : when I first visited the Peninsula in the eighties, these Turkish bones were still lying about everywhere. Even to such a degree that they were an easy means to find your position on the battlefield : once you started finding bones, you knew for sure that you had entered the Turkish side.

Now, something funny happened in the nineties, after Turkey started to build the new monuments at Helles and at Turkish Quinn's, and whole busloads of 'pilgrims' were being ferried to the battlefields : all of a sudden all the bones had disappeared. Strange, but understandable perhaps, as they would not have been a pretty sight for the visitors.

The question I have always been asking myself however, is : "Where have they gone then?" Not into some mass grave I know of. Not in one of the new Turkish cemeteries, which are 100% 'symbolic. But where then? If anyone can tell me, please do, but I fear the worst.

When a media storm blew up last week in Australia, about human remains being destroyed by the roadworks at Anzac, Mr Howard, the Prime Minister, pointed out that Anzac Cove was as important to the Turkish as it was to Australia. "Bear in mind that there was 60,000 Turkish deaths on Gallipoli, and the idea that the Turks

would be automatically insensitive to this matter is false" he said.

In view of what happened to human remains in the past, I'm afraid I cannot believe him.

CGI

[southafricawargraves]

Hi all,

Back to this topic after a few days off and I see we are unclear as to the actual spot of Anzac Cove.

The below photos should show in fact where Anzac Cove proper is located. Like I said after 2 and a half months there I think I ought to know. I'm not trying to get into any arguments but I'll post these last few photos and leave it at that.

That huge block of concrete that says Anzac Cove is near the Turkish memorial that welcomes the people of the Commonwealth that the graves resting there now are now as well Turkish, can't remember what is says exactly.

If we actually get down to specifics, real specifics, then we have to look at the whole history. The boats were supposed to land at Brighton Beach much further south of Anzac Cove. But at Beach cemetery a large number of men scrambled ashore, as well as at Ari Burnu further noth than that. But the Anzac Commerative site which is north of Ari Burnu and north of the huge slab of concrete that says Anzac Cove is considered to be Anzac Cove.

I'm posting pixs to show my point.

[southafricawargraves]

Anzac Cove Commerative Site.

Note the very large concrete structure that says "ANZAC" on it. the other side of the structure has a tonne of plaques outlining the history of the site.

[southafricawargraves]

Forgot to mention that in this "Cove" you can snorkel and find about a gazillion turkish projectiles and British shell casings. There is also a very ship there that the Navy sunk with ballast to make a barging area.

If you dig around hard enough, pieces of equipment are all over the place as well, a mate of mine found a entrenching tool (encrusted with barnacles of course).

[southafricawargraves]

Again if you are still unconvinced how about a sign that says Anzac Commerative site is 400 metres down the road from Ari Burnu.