WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[AndyBsk]

In reality this is not a ersatz bayonet, for what would be this as ersatz? The army would call it probably a captured belgian M1889 modell, its a proper belgian M1889 infantry rifle bayonet. I assume there exist different german ersatz bayonets for belgian type rifles.

Ersatz means a replacement bayonet  for used german service rifle. as there are ASG88/98 variety of bayonets. Or for captured and used rifles but non standart configuration modells.

How it was obtained i dont known, but the Bayard S14 and other various early war period pieces done in Belgium have identical J proof on parts, so i assume the production was accepted by germans for Army using. 

From the FN history book of VanderLinden publication, belgians already moved from Liege and their armories in late 1914, the production was moved to Antwerp and Callais and later to England. pgs 141/2

So there existed ammount of overhauled rifles belgian M89 mainly carbines into german 7,92mm caliber, some of them are new reproofed with inspection, the small a box is typical for MAE arsenal Liege, the FN used capital letter.

Its certainly a scarce piece in excellent condition, but designation when by Williams as ersatz is probably not correct.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[shippingsteel]

Yes was thinking the same, the term they used for "re-purposed" captured rifles was beute-gewehr so this example with the Deutschland overstamp is probably best termed as beute-seitengewehr. An interesting piece. No doubt they would have found stocks in the warehouses they could use.

Cheers, SS 

[zuluwar2006]

Dear friends, 

Captured bayonets or converted, from german army during ww1, are refering with the term "ersatz" for decades. 

And this term is acceptable by all the bayonet books and collectors from 1930 until today. 

For terminology reasons, an ersatz bayonet means the Emergency or replacement bayonet. So i believe this term is match and for captured bayonets (they were used for emergensy or replacement reasons as well. that is why they have captured them, for issue to german troops, so the accurate description is "ersatz" bayonet). 

And this speciment with a german acceptance mark, is described as an ersatz bayonet, for sure. 

Regards

D. 

[shippingsteel]

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Yes was thinking the same, the term they used for "re-purposed" captured rifles was beute-gewehr so this example with the Deutschland overstamp is probably best termed as beute-seitengewehr.

Collectors make up all sorts of terms to describe things in a simple way, but that doesn't mean they are correct. And books are mostly a reflection of the collectors way of thinking. In this case the Deutschland stamp tells the story of a captured weapon put into use. The Germans would call it Belgisches M1889 beute-seitengewhr but hey, what a mouthful, Ersatz is much simpler but unfortunately incorrect. I think the auction house got it right in their description, see link below. 

Cheers, SS 

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=14637403

[trajan]

D. is quite right to point out that the term 'Ersatz' has long been used for captured bayonets in German use, whether altered or not.

Carter was quite precise in attaching the term 'Ersatz' solely to 'all-metal' German designs in his original 'Ersatz' publication of 1975: in his volume III of 1992, he does distinguish between 'The Ersatz, Requistioned and Captured Bayonets'.

Dangre, who coined the term 'Ersatz' in his series of articles on Bayonettes "ersatz" allemandes included 'Modelles etrangers' in these, but only those converted for German use.  

Beutewaffen is the official expression in German documents for all types of captured weapons issued to the German army, a process officially authorised a Kriegministerium memorandum issued on 22nd December 1914 concerning weapons available for Reserve, units, etc., in place of their Gew.88 and Gew.98 badly needed by front-line units.

'Aelteren Seitengewehre', this was the Official German designation for modified foreign bayonets, as stated in a document of 1918.

And the all-steel 'ersatz'? In Bavaria at least it was classified in a 1915 official list as the 'S.G. 18/98', indicating its dual capacity for fitting to a Gew.88 and/or Gew.98.

The 'Deutschland' mark and/or German Eagle mark was applied, if I remember correctly, to captured weapons to comply with one of the Hague conventions.

Trajan 

[AndyBsk]

I believe SS is correct here, as Carter and his predecessor added this designation post 1930, i dont known of any period information from german sources about ersatz bayonets, the metall emergency types were called Aushilfe SG and were used prior made enough ordinary modells were produced early 1916.

Ersatz bajonett is austrian term not german, and was used for bandsteel bayonets attached on various austrian rifles. That is period designation. and mostly was wrongly added by Carter for all items, German never used a Bajonett term for SG. Only in case of socket bajonett.

About this was long time discussion on german forum, were are people looking into period WW1 archives.

Aptierte SG were already pre 1890 declared bayonets like Chassepot reworked to S71 or other german rifle.

Aelteren SG i never heard of this name, more real were Beute SG or normal franz.Bajonett Lebel etc it was not a ersatz for anything.

Pieces wout standart caliber were not used in combat units, only securing second line, guarding. There exist period manual for captured and other countries rifles used in German army, even some are clearly private on market purchased from ALFA and different firms for army in early war period.

In case of belgian rilfes that were reworked to 7.9mm cartridge exist "ersatz" ASG89 bayonets made with high ring and sawbacked 98/05 blade and metall handle.

Edited 2 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

1 minute ago, AndyBsk said:

Aushilfe SG... 

Andy, Beutewaffen for issue to Reserve, etc., units are mentioned in Pruss. Kriegsministerium document 1769/24, of 22 December 1914.

Aushilfsseitengewehre/n  are mentioned in several documents, as, e.g., Pruss. Feldzugmeisterei 2055.4.15.J of 28 April 1915. 

Aushilfs-und Aelteren Seitengewehre/n are mentioned in Pruss. Kriegsministerium document 957188 of 28 April 1918

'S.G. 18/98' is listed and described in K.Bay.Kriegsministerium document 44/15, of 31 December, 1915, as characterised by its: 'Kurze Klinge - feldgrauer Eisengriff, auch zum teil Messinggriff - Parierstange hinten gabelfoermig'

Julian

[AndyBsk]

In 1918 should be visible what there is as Aelteren type SG are older type bayonets not that in means of refurbished to other standart. Wout exact knowning was there was declared is hard to say, mainly by 100 old german text. There could be too some designation error done. When You have a full text it would be better.

Anyway a Ersatz term was more time discussed on various german forums, and i only interpret here their opinions, Offcoarse no one says Carter has not doing good job, anyway he had with some errors started not ending continues using of wrong terms continued by Williams and Mery, unfortunally both not german natives and with low german language skills.

You should read Ruediger what he wrote in his books as he citted mainly the german army archives.

[trajan]

Sadly Ruediger never did a Seitengewehre Volume VI, as that would be interesting...

[Steve1871]

Love the way you can whip out the various minor official documents by number and date, not just the major regulations like the 1909, 1877 and others Julian!!

I am a 30 year novice in collecting. Never time to study in depth. I agree that “Ersatz” was a term from Austria.  Generalized by collectors and authors alike for most non standard bayonets, a lot of us collectors have a hard time even pronouncing the German terms ( no offense) . 
 

Another, more extreme example is “Ersock” A term that no government used, but made up by some collector/ seller for the Very old British P.53 socket bayonet where just the blade and maybe the shank were used

Hey Julian, is there any book that actually/ correctly translated some of the Original German regulations complete, not one or two sentences??? I would love to learn more!

Another rare gem you have there Demitrios! Thanks for posting

[trajan]

12 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

is there any book that actually/ correctly translated some of the Original German regulations complete, not one or two sentences??? I would love to learn more!

No, not really, although I have translated some of what is available - there is probably much more in the Bavarian Archives and some more in other collections...

Julian  

[zuluwar2006]

Julian said "... Dangre, who coined the term 'Ersatz' in his series of articles on Bayonettes "ersatz" allemandes included 'Modelles etrangers' in these, but only those converted for German use...".

That is precise my point of view. 

From 1930, starting from Dangre, until today, the use of term ersatz is the familiar way to describe those bayonets. 

After 90 years, If germans want to reissue the term, according ww1 german archives, they have to try hard and write for it. 

Until then, ersatz is the way i will call this kind of bayonets to avoid confusion. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Why ersatz in that case as is a normal modell of bayonet M1889 for Infantry Rifle? mostly prewar or war period  normal modell piece. Ersatz bayonets for belgian captured rifles are on pg.205/6 of Vanderlinden book, and i assume too in Williams II.volume and Mery book. Captured gun were marked with Deutsches Reich stamp on buttstock and Your Deutschland stamp on bayonets, so most real when J inspector proofed the rifle with was converted by germans in war into german caliber.

Anyway Demitrios is Your choice how to designate a bayonet here in presentation of Your collection.

[zuluwar2006]

54 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Why ersatz in that case as is a normal modell of bayonet M1889 for Infantry Rifle? mostly prewar or war period  normal modell piece. Ersatz bayonets for belgian captured rifles are on pg.205/6 of Vanderlinden book, and i assume too in Williams II.volume and Mery book. Captured gun were marked with Deutsches Reich stamp on buttstock and Your Deutschland stamp on bayonets, so most real when J inspector proofed the rifle with was converted by germans in war into german caliber.

Anyway Demitrios is Your choice how to designate a bayonet here in presentation of Your collection.

I am just following a 90 years tradition. 

German authors now must persuade us that this terminology was wrong. 

Off course i understand your point of view and SS as well. 

BUT when i am stuck, for 30 and more years, on this phrase, i must accept a very good shock to forget it!!! 

Regards

D. 

Edited 6 January , 2022 by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

I understand Your point fully, from my point of view is this repeating of a error that was done 90 years ago, Unfortunally in new literature is this continuing on items that were never ersatz defined.

There exist period WW1 manual for Fremdlaendische Gewehre using in German army (foreign rifles using by german army) , unfortunally i have lost the copy on my crashed PC, maybe i will found it on disc someday. There is no reason declare a standart modell M89 rifle or bayonet as replacement as ersatz is the term for replacement equipment. The term Beute or captured was not used, it was clearly declared by country of origin. to sample Russian Mosin Rifle M91, Romanian Mannlicher M93, French Lebel M1886/93 etc..

Edited 7 January , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Mark Finneran]

Superb discussions and what an education for novices like me. Thanks for the ongoing conversations. All I look for are standard WWI German MG marked bayonets and that is difficult enough!

Mark

[zuluwar2006]

1 hour ago, Mark Finneran said:

Superb discussions and what an education for novices like me. Thanks for the ongoing conversations. All I look for are standard WWI German MG marked bayonets and that is difficult enough!

Mark

Dear Mark, 

You are the specialist on MG's and you have all the knowledge on this area!!! 

I am sure you will get a lot of more mg unit marked bayonets for your collection!!! 

Regards, D. 

On 07/01/2022 at 08:53, AndyBsk said:

I understand Your point fully, from my point of view is this repeating of a error that was done 90 years ago, Unfortunally in new literature is this continuing on items that were never ersatz defined.

There exist period WW1 manual for Fremdlaendische Gewehre using in German army (foreign rifles using by german army) , unfortunally i have lost the copy on my crashed PC, maybe i will found it on disc someday. There is no reason declare a standart modell M89 rifle or bayonet as replacement as ersatz is the term for replacement equipment. The term Beute or captured was not used, it was clearly declared by country of origin. to sample Russian Mosin Rifle M91, Romanian Mannlicher M93, French Lebel M1886/93 etc..

Dear Andy, 

It will be great and very usefull  if you could find this from your crashed pc. 

Regards, D. 

 

 

 

[zuluwar2006]

On 02/01/2022 at 19:05, Steve1871 said:

Love the way you can whip out the various minor official documents by number and date, not just the major regulations like the 1909, 1877 and others Julian!!

I am a 30 year novice in collecting. Never time to study in depth. I agree that “Ersatz” was a term from Austria.  Generalized by collectors and authors alike for most non standard bayonets, a lot of us collectors have a hard time even pronouncing the German terms ( no offense) . 
 

Another, more extreme example is “Ersock” A term that no government used, but made up by some collector/ seller for the Very old British P.53 socket bayonet where just the blade and maybe the shank were used

Hey Julian, is there any book that actually/ correctly translated some of the Original German regulations complete, not one or two sentences??? I would love to learn more!

Another rare gem you have there Demitrios! Thanks for posting

Dear Steve (my son), 

Ersock was a phrase invented by the late Roy Williams. 

Also he used this nickname on ebay. 

Ersatz and socket words were  mixed and here we have the word ersock. 

Regards, D. 

 

[Steve1871]

Thanks Demitrios 

[zuluwar2006]

Dear friends,

Here we have a unique ersatz bayonet, never before recorded. This speciment is the only one recorded, until today, so extremely rare. 

An ersatz or captured french bayonet model 1892, type 2, for Berthier carbine (French Mannlicher Berthier M1892 2nd Pattern bayonet and scabbard). 

I repeat this is a unique ersatz bayonet, never before recorded (the 2nd model). 
Type 2 bayonets are characterised by a reinforced case (as from April 1912).
This Model has a shortened quillon.
The sheath originaly had a bronze colour. The sheath of this ersatz bayonet, has the characteristic olive green colour, used on sheaths for ersatz bayonets. 

This bayonet is unaltered. The one side wood grip is stamped DEUTSCHES REICH in a circle above the Imperial German Eagle. These are typical German property markings found stamped usually on captured M 1874 gras rifles and were probably stamped at the same time as those on matching rifle. 

This is the first time such a bayonet (type 2) recorded with german property stamp. Type 1 has several recorded examples. 

This bayonet was made to be used with the Mannlicher Berthier Artillery Carbine and is a very nice design. This is the 2nd Pattern with wood grips and with the quillon partially removed. This was due to the bayonets serial number being on the lower part of the quillon. The bayonet has a straight sword like polished blade which measures 15 3/4" long. It is fullered, it has an unusual feature of a short fuller on the top edge of the blade near the tip which aided penetration. The blade has a notch on both sides near to the crossguard which locks the bayonet in the scabbard with a click. This is the later design with smooth wood grips secured with two rivets. The muzzle ring overlaps the grips. The pommel has a push release which operates as it should. The scabbard is steel (see White & Watts 'The Bayonet Book, pages 85 & 98 item 214 and An Illustrated History Of Bayonets by Martin Brayley, Page 72-74).

In 1886 the French reduced the Cartridge size the 8mm Lebel from the 1874 Gras size of 11.59mm much like the British changing from .450 cal to .303 caliber and the Germans from 11mm of the Mauser M-71 to the Gew 88 of 7.92mm. The first rifle to use this cartridge was the Lebel Model 1886 rifle.

The Lebel, a revolutionary concept at the time of its introduction because of its smokeless high-velocity, small-caliber cartridge, unfortunately still used a tube-fed magazine and other details carried over from black-powder designs. This, along with magazine feeding and loading issues, made it completely unsuitable for use on horseback, so a replacement was needed, and fast.T

he Berthier Carbine was introduced as this much needed Cavalry replacement for the Lebel. The Berthier design began as the "Mousquetons Berthier" - a series of bolt-action cavalry and artillery carbines with distinctly different actions from the Mle 1886/M93 8mm Lebel rifle. For instance, the Berthier carbine's bolt lugs lock vertically into the receiver instead of horizontally as in the Lebel rifle. Berthier carbines were first issued in 1890 and 1892, and had been designed by Emile Berthier, an engineer at the French Algerian Railways,tob e used with standard 8mm Lebel ammunition.

The Berthier design was introduced as a replacement for the various aging Mle 1874 Gras single-shot carbines - still standard for French cavalry, artillery, and gendarme forces even after the introduction of the Mle 1886/M93 Lebel. Prior experiments with several carbine versions of the Lebel action proved unacceptably heavy and slow to load while on horseback. While retaining most of the action's strong points, the Berthier carbine improved on the earlier Mle 1886 rifle by using a one-piece stock and a Mannlicher-style, charger-loaded en bloc 3 shot clip. These Berthier carbines were progressively allocated to all cavalry, artillery and gendarmerie troops during the 1890s.

Berthier's design for the original carbine was adopted in 1890 as the Mle 1890, utilizing a 3-round en-bloc clip. The small 3-shot magazine capacity was adopted after field testing, where the cavalry expressed a preference for a non-protruding magazine that did not interfere with the balance or handling of the rifle. The first Berthier carbine came into production as the "Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890", which was officially adopted for service on March 14, 1890. The main production facilities were the Manufacture d'Armes de St Etienne or MAS and the Manufacture d'Armes de Chatellerault or MAC.

The search for a suitable small arm for mounted troops was given greater urgency by the Germans' development of the Karabiner Modell 1888, a carbine variant of the Gewehr 1888. It was issued to essentially all French artillery and cavalry troops. As the high Command appreciated the performance of the Mle 1890 Berthier carbine, a second version was specifically produced for artillery service, the "Mousqueton Mle 1892" which could mount a short blade bayonet and thus had a re-designed forend stock. However it continued to feature the 3-round En-bloc clip of the Model 1890 carbine.

 

[AndyBsk]

Interesting piece certainly, but is more a captured Bayonet as ersatz, its not replacement for a different bayonet and not for german rifle. problem here is the removed quillon as some sources of french speaks for it that it was removed in 1918 and later, the wooden stamp on grip could be similar as done on rifles. Any serials on the hook and scabbard?  Its twice stamped on both sides? why would be striked twice when on rifles its only one?

PS i would certainly remove the varnish laquer layer from metall blade and scabbard and handle.

Edited 7 February , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Rarer than anything I got. You still got that Magic to keep bringing out all these rare bayonets, units, markings. Thanks for posting. Being 2022, there are so many ways to publishing, Digital. Self pub., so many outlets for smaller books. Have you thought about really taking the time to take lots of detailed pics of each of your bayonets to publish?? Since the 1950’s, there have been at least a few dozen books solely of a collection. A museum, A large collector or another. That guy who ( Australian) did small publish of KS98 bayonet and at least 2 other books would work for you. Your Ongoing post has enough people looking at it, forum members would love a copy... HINT HINT HINT!!!!!!

[zuluwar2006]

A very rare ersatz chassepot M 1866 converted french bayonet, with extention to the spring catch, that has been made to fit the gewehr 88 rifle only. 

Brass hilt handle machined down in one step for 54 mm from the back of the hilt to a depth of 3 mm. 

Then machined down to a depth of 2,5mm to the muzzle ring. 

The steal leaf spring with an extention to the press stud. 

The first 3 mm of the muzzle ring enlarged (milled out the back of the ring). 

This is a variation of EB 106 model never recorded before. 

 

 

[AndyBsk]

The bayonet is well known by Ruediger as aptiertes french Chassepot for Gew71 or Gew88 german rifles, similar designation as EB 106 didnt existed period, this is only a collector designation. The similar conversion were done already prior 1900 on obsolete captured french bayonets, so here is hard to say its WW1 or prewar, the spine of blade should be engraved what for date and production is it, the conversion were done by smaller divisional depots, so the spine reducing was done by various way, could find one, 2 or 3 stepped, here is evidently the blade little sharpened by previous collector, and the rifle slot looks like little damaged, so it should be proofed on rifle Gew88 that is works, there is old french serial numbers stamped, and from other side is not any german LW units added, it could be used by second line units even in WW1.

 

[Rafal1971]

A propos Regarding the German markings on the covers of Berthier

Auction Gras bayonet Französisches Gras Bajonett. Mit Deutschem Reich Beute Stempel!!!! - eGun

Sad or or terrible