WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

Thanks for the info, and research you did there Andy, both of you agree it was some kind of German conversion, adaption. Both of you agree that it is Rare, only a small amount were converted, and simply by those two point’s, it is a fascinating piece, despite the condition. Thank both of you guy’s

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents,

I hope you all enjoy summer vacations.

Here is my last addittion from France. A rare ersatz plain bayonet, EB34 on Carter's book for ersatz bayonets, with a very rare unit marking “33.FR.6.123”.

The identification for unit marking, is for the 33th Regiment for East Prussian  fusiliers, 6 company, number of weapon 123. It is coming with original  ersatz FAG scabbard, with 75% of colour. 

The 33rd (East Prussian) Fusiliers "Count Roon" was a regiment of the Imperial German Army through the First World War. In 1914 they were garrisoned at Gumbinnen (modern Gusev in the Russian Province of Kaliningrad) as part of the I Army Corps. During the First World War they served on the Eastern Front notably at the Battles of Tannenberg and the Mausurian Lakes. In 1917 they were transferred to the Western Front and served in Flanders.I

n August 1914 the unit was part of the 2nd Division of the Königsberg-based I Corps. With the Russian invasion of East Prussia in August 1914, the unit saw action during the prelude to the Battle of Tannenberg. The 33rd Fusiliers charged the Russian-occupied village of Mallwischken near Gumbinnen and cleared the area (Showalter, D.E. (1991). Tannenberg: Clash of Empires. Hamden: Archon. p. 173). Later as the battle for East Prussia developed, the regiment occupied high ground near the village of Usdau.

The Füsilier-Regt. Graf Roon (1.Ostpreußisches) Nr.33 were originally formed on 6th March 1749 under King Frederick I of Sweden (West Pomerania had been Swedish since the Treaty of Stettin in 1653).

From 1889 they took the title of von Roon in memory of their former colonel in chief, Albrecht Graf von Roon, the Prussian general best known for his army reforms of the 1860s. Von Roon had died ten years before in 1879.

Regards to all

D. 

[AndyBsk]

Question would be how long is the locking lenght of handle, as the bented crossguard barell laps has only reason by Gew.88 not by Gew.98, so most real it was ASG98 with cleaning hole, converted to using on Gew.88, mouth piece area of scabbard speaks for turkish using, germans never used a so large screw on both sides probably.

[zuluwar2006]

Andy, i do not think this ersatz saw use by turkish troops.

On the contrary,  this appearence, indicate use by german troops during ww1 as it is the usual manufacture for this type ersatz bayonet. Also the fact that they finde it in France, is giving an extra credit for my point of view. Regards, D. 

Edited 15 July by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Soldering of hook is very crude on the scabbard, the screws of mouth i believe are not correct  period there probably and have identical blueing as the scabbard, mainly screw was only frontside not backside,  so in reality the scabbard was reblued in anytime??. The benting doubble ring diameter laps on crossguard has no reason for germans or it was used by non german rifle then, should be measured the locking lenght??. Locking lug in pommel, is protruding which is too not correct from beginn there, maybe the piece is a replacement?  Finding in France for me in global world since 2000 remains allways in question.

 

Edited 15 July by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Andy, 

For scabbard i agree. 

For double ring i am not. Also the protruding of the locking lug in pommel, is usual appearence, cause of the wear of time or caused by benting the pomnel (obvious are the bents on pommel). Do not forget this is an all steel production, made under the pressure of emergency reasons and rapidly, with poor quality in a lot of bayonets. 

Bents on crossguard (on double ring) i cannot see any of them. This particular model ersatz bayonet, has a completely different design to any other ersatz type, so and the rarity. The most obvious difference is the crossguard, which curves backwards to form the open diameter open ring. So not bents, but manufactured this way.

This model has a fullered blade. Exist and another type, plain bladed. 

Regards, D. 

[Rafal1971]

Dimitrios,
There is no discussion Felix Alex Gobel's scabbard has undergone a TYPICAL Turkish overhaul!

Andy

My erzatz in the same set of FAG scabbards + bayonet. The back of the latch is flat

The back of the latch is flat

Maybe they got them at the production plant, maybe the Germans, maybe someone else quickly replaced them. As a plot, there is nothing to look for a Turk.
There are no Turkish numbers. Turkish bayonet not recorded with Prussian unit marking left

 

Best Rafal

[AndyBsk]

Thanks for sharing it the additional pictures, the only explanation would be the locking lenght of handle is for Gew98 as visible cleaning hole behind the crossguard, for Gew98 is no needs for barell ring, as it should be attached on Gew88 You need shorter locking lenght, this could be then benting crossguard laps backwards, do You have dimmension from back of laps to start of locking lug in pommel?

The handle was bented and riveted together and crossguard was too bented from plain steelband piece, visible on the vorlast picture, there is edge over it was bented, thats a normal procedure. 

Some of german outsaled ASG88/98- turkish bayonets were observed in origin condition wout any refurbishment or serialing, so a old unit could be remains on the crossguard ocassionally. On reverse crossguard turks didnt serialised the bayonets when i remember correctly.

Edited 16 July by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Dera Gents,

Here are some bayonets i have discovered on my attic, cleaning it the last days, left there some time at the past.

Those are bayonets collected over 25 years before. I will come back with reference for each one. 

Regards, D. 

 

[zuluwar2006]

Gents, 

I present a very interesting and rare convertion of the S 71/84 bayonet. This speciment, mofified to fit the Karabiner 98 AZ. 

Steel hilt with steel push button and internal spring, two piece wood grips secured by 2 rivets.

The pommel, hilt back and grips cut in a deep step to fit the Karabiner AZ. The crossguard reverse without any unit markings, which are erased. Single edge steel blade with long square fullers, without any date, which also erased.

The muzzle ring removed. This bayonet is coming without scabbard. But still, a very rare and desired bayonet. 

Regards, D. 

Edited 8 September by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Personally i dont like similar conversions, is visible that the area of cut have a new rust areas, which would be suspicious for me, same as the cut in handle spine has not the proper angle, similar the designation that this would be a Ubergangswaffe declared by Mery is very problematic, this update was made when period so locally, and is not good fixing on the Kar98AZ, would be not usable in combat, as the handle grip is weakened by this removing of material, The overall piece was rusted and chemically entrostet before the new rust areas there.

[Rafal1971]

I wonder why the rivet heads are not covered with corrosion and the covers are corroded???

[AndyBsk]

Yes that is a good point, i would certainly examine exact each part, as by S71/84 should be each part inspector proofed, here is even not visible year and acceptance on spine of blade, so is not confirmed this is a german S71/84 bayonet, as in Williams book are unfortunally similar pieces faked from M1892 spain bayonets, in case this is a german S71/84 it should be maker marked, W88 marked to sample, inspector marked on all parts. For Kar98AZ could be used S84/98aA which have a proper 98 pommel area, which was reworked in period 1905-10. The KS98 was prior 1914 produced for KAr98AZ as main type of this gun.

Edited 9 September by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Here are 2 closer photos the seller from france send me. Absolutely an old bayonet, not a new one, traces of serious oxidation are all over the pommel. Rust areas from old rust still exists, obviously seller did not clean it up properly, chemically. 

About the use, i agree, that is why this model did not produced in quantities, disadvantages were obvious as usefull in combat, bayonet to bayonet. 

M 1892 bayonets could have use on this convertion, but i think this is a s 71/84 checking this from the fullers. 

Seller of this bayonet will respond on the questions about. 

Regards, D. 

[AndyBsk]

M1892 spain bayonets were never used in this way by germans, this is a error same as Williams added to his book evidently faked items. The piece of Williams is same as here presented by Mery.

Its Your choice what to believe, the chemical removal of rust was done on all parts, so there is strange that only in area of the cut is remains of the rust. The angles of cut are not corect, when You look at previous pictures. But when You believe the source is ok, is Your choice. I dont see any german marking anywhere even the pictures are not sharp and low quality.

Edited 10 September by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Question is : why someone to spend a lot of time and art, to falsifie something old (with danger to break it), just to gain clearly 20 to 30 euros? This not make any sense. 

[AndyBsk]

When You have good information about the source its ok for You, as mentioned not presented any details of german marking here?, the overall bayonet was heavy rusted and chemically cleaned, the similar piece wout this german aptierung could be obtain as rusted S71/84 or M92/93 for under 100 bucks and wout scabbard under 80, the realisation of similar cut in pommel is about 10 minutes work, and adding a old patina by influencing of acid lying for one month, i dont believe someone will sold it under 100 as he had the rare cut pommel version, value is in 300/400 range, which brings me to quick win of 200/300? is probably the easiest way to fake a S71/84 piece. But when You get it for 80 bucks so its ok for You.

And when You look at remains of barell ring cut there is no rust removed, why? and i believe by cleaning he used agressive acide for longer time as needed to remove all markings avialable there in previous. Same as Rafal mentioned intact heads of rivets.

 

Edited 10 September by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

And these sharp edges on the pommel ... You can cut yourself ...

[zuluwar2006]

Gents, If someone is going to sell a lot of them, i can see a point.

BUT a collector (or a famous bayonet seller), to sell just one piece, destroying his reputation, or good feedback, with purpose to gain 20 euros, impossible (otherwise my mind will blow). 

Rafal, i cannot cut sharp edges so exactly with precise angle. Need practice and prior to destroy 2 or 3 bayonets before succeed. So, for a single bayonet, i cannot find something to blame. For a lot, yes, will ring the alarm. 

Nevertheless, oxidation is the same all over the bayonet. 

It is good to be suspicious, but all fingers are not the same. 

Regards, D. 

[Rafal1971]

The Polish author of books on collecting and the history of the development of the bayonet, Maciej Pruszyński, wrote the following sentence in his advice for collectors
  Generally, "If you have any suspicions or doubts that an item is not original or counterfeit, do not buy it and do not include it in your collection."

I have such doubts about this bayonet.

Dymitrios, don't worry about what the seller had in mind when selling the bayonet.

Everyone who collects anything wants to buy a RARE, INTERESTING, BEAUTIFUL ITEM IN BEAUTIFUL CONDITION FOR A LITTLE MONEY FOR THEIR COLLECTION.

I would buy this type of modified bayonet myself - BUT NOT THIS ONE