WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

Demitrios and Andy,  I do not understand how it can be two different Infantry Regiments at same time? Confused here 

[AndyBsk]

https://wiki.genealogy.net/IR_145

Its easy way,-  1.Lothringisches Regt. was a nr.130 of complete Reichsheer,

2. Lothring.IR was IR nr.131 ,

IR132. was a 1.Unter-Elssassisches IR

because IR 133 and 134 were 9. and 10. IR of Saxon Army.

3.Lothringisches was IR nr.135 in Reichsheer,

The various parts of DR were joined the prussian, Saxon and Wurttemberg (small districts non named) units into one Reichsheer, only Bavaria used the separate unit numbering.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

I wish. There was a book in ENGLISH to explain and break down all this. I am always amazed on how much detail and break down  

wiki. Genealogy has, but not knowing German,I simply can not follow, use the wiki.

ai am guessing after unification the new unified army set up a structure/ listing for army groups, regiments, battalions  and more. Each “state” was allotted blocks of unit numbers? ?

Lothingen? IR units  1.  2.  3.  4. Ect would have block starting with new ( Prussian) I.R.  Starting with I.R. 130.  131.  132.       
so Lothingen IR 1 is   Now. IR 130.   Lothingen IR 3 would be  ( new) IR 133

[AndyBsk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorraine

Lothringen was part of Germany after victory on France in 1870, so the units of this region could be added only post 1870, the area of Elsass Lothringen was lost in 1919 and remained to France, when i read correctly.

The german Army had a increasing of various periods, so in 1890 was added new Regiments one of it IR145 was from that area, and the serialing of units were fluently continued, in that time was already 140 Regiments with numbers. Some of small Duchy or Districts have their own numbering, because this units came from that area. 

"Durch Reichsgesetz vom 11. März 1887 wurde die Truppenstärke des Deutschen Heeres für die Zeit vom 1. April 1887 bis zum 31. März 1894 auf 468.409 Mann (ohne Offiziere etc.) erhöht, was 1 % der Bevölkerung (Stand 1. Dezember 1885) entsprach ." Per Reichs law of 11.3.1887 was mannpower of german army for time since 1.4.1887 to 31.3.1894 increased to 468409 Soldiers (wout Offz.) what was 1% of german community (from date 1885).
 

-in that period was raised more units in 1881 one of increasing, 1884 and 1887 was here mentioned increasing when was raised the 3.Lothr.IR - IR135

Edited 27 March , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thanks for your effort and response there Andy!

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents, 

Today i present you a very rare convertion, catalogued as ersatz bayonet. 

This is a Werndl 1867 bayonet (Austrian Sabelbajonett Modell 1867) which has been converted to fix on Gew 71, 71/84 and Gew 88 rifles. 

The M 1867 sabre bayonet was introduced for the Infanterie und Jagergewehr system Werndl Holub modell 1867, a breech loading rifle, adopted after Austria's defeat by the Prussians in the seven weeks war of 1866. The bayonet has a yataghan long recurving blade. 

The modification is described on Atlas of bayonets and is characterized as absolutely functioned on the rifles. 

The modifications are :

A) on the pommel. The pommel was stepped for a length of 33 mm (which is typically for the modifications on 1867 or 1870 austrian werndl bayonets). 

At the upper part of the handle the number 518 is inscribed (a number for the convertion?). 

The original manufacturer and austrian unit markings remained. 

b) on the muzzle ring. The muzzle ring was machined down from the base. With this modification the muzxle ring offset towards the handle and narrowed by the same operation.

C) The press stud has been machined down. 

D) the original austrian scabbard was reissued without any alterations. 

An extremely rare modification, rarely recorded. 

The machining of the press stud indicates the use as a sidearm mayebe? 

Regards, 

D. 

 

Edited 22 April , 2023 by zuluwar2006

[Steve1871]

You got me beat. I no have one of these, impressive for the rarity. Was the ball final on top, standard on these bayonet’s, and with the hole in bottom of pommel, does that make it an “ NCO” model as well? The large step in the pommel over mortice slot, that was part of conversion?

nice piece, thanks for posting 

[bert.f]

Rare bayonet, maker mark F.A.H.- Friedr. Herder Abr. Sohn (GmbH) Solingen

L. St - Landstrum Bataillon 

Edited 23 April , 2023 by bert.f

[Steve1871]

Good going here Bert.f

[AndyBsk]

Yes nicely made a M1867, the piece was firstly converted into a M1867/73 by lightening the blade, secondly the piece was refurbished for using with german delivered Gew88 which could be moved to WW1 period, by removing of press button and porteepee ring is this weapons moved to Sidearm only. The numbering on the pommel should be from same period probably, the origin units is from 11.Landsturm Bataillon weapon nr marked on crossguard. The blueing of ricasso area of blade is not proper and were done by previous collector probably. Similar conversion of M1867 with bented crossguard were so called emergency as this dont work extra well, because the diameter of Werndl is 18,7 instead of 17,5mm on Gew88.

to Bert this is one of the errors which are presented probably even from Carter period, the maker is not F.Herder, as Your shortage wouldnt  pass here, this is a typical error which i am confronted since 1995, the maker here is F.A.Hermes Solingen.

Edited 23 April , 2023 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Reworked bayonet mounted a rifle M13 Repetiergewehre

http://www.opowiadaczehistorii.pl/austro-wegierski-8mm-m-13-repetiergewehr/

 

[AndyBsk]

This is a photo of Heino Hintermeier book pg.40.

[zuluwar2006]

On 22/04/2023 at 22:57, zuluwar2006 said:

 

 

Dear Gents, 

Today i present you a  rare war time (ww1) convertion of a S 98 nA plain model bayonet. This model introduced on 1902 and has not a steel flashguard. 

At the start of ww1, was found that wood gripped bayonets fixed to the Kar 98, suffered damages from muzxle flash, because on this weapon the hilt projected past the muzzle. On 3.9.1915, the war ministry in Berlin, supplied instructions for fitting flashguards and requested that all units equipped with Kar 98 and S 98, should have the guards fitted by the armourers (so and for 9805 aA model bayonets). 

On 31.12.1915, the Bavarian War Ministry, issued an order, concerning the specification of the rifles, carbines and their bayonets, stated that bayonets used with Kar 98, will receive flashguards. 

Carter has catalogued only 2 Bavarian marked S 98 nA with steel flashguard bayonets, from the 20 examined. 

The bayonet i present today, is a Bavarian unit marked bayonet, and manufacturer is the firm "C G Haenel Suhl". 

On the spine there is the crowned "O" and date must be 1907. The 2 Suhl firms were also making and the S 98/02 bayonets for Bavaria, so when Bavaria began to introduce S 98 nA in the autumn of 1903, turned to the 2 Suhl firms. 

On the crossguard the unit marking is B.12.R.11.59 which means 12 Bavarian Infanterie Regiment Prinz Arnulf, which based on Neu - Ulm, 11th company, number of weapon 59.

The 12 Bavarian Infanterie Regiment, belonged to the I Koniglich Bayerisches Armeekorps (I Bavarian Army Korps) formed by 1st and 2nd Divisions and was based on Munich. 

At the outbreak of war, the I. B. A. K. was serving in the 6th Army commanded by Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria on the Western Front in Lorraine. In late September 1914 the corps was attached to von Bulow's 2nd Army on the Somme in the Peronne region. 

Regards, 

D. 

 

 

Edited 25 April , 2023 by zuluwar2006

[trajan]

Dimitrios,

Good to hear you are well on the mend to full health! And thanks for posting all these nice bayonets!

Julian

Edited 8 May , 2023 by trajan

[Steve1871]

Lucky you D’

I still do not have one, wish I did, nice rare one!

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents, 

Today i present you a modified model 1866 sabre bayonet, original french, which converted to fix the Gew 88 rifle. 

This is catalogued as EB 108 ersatz bayonet on Carter's and Roy Williams book for ersatz bayonets. This is a very rare modification and less than 10 have been recorded. 

On this very rare model, they removed the complete back of the hilt at a slight angle and continuing the cut into the base of the muzzle ring. The press stud was not modified, but the back of the hilt has been machined down starting about 1 mm above the heigh of the base of the extentions bar's groove and in a straight line down to a similar depth below the groove. The muzxle ring has been machined away at an angle, leaving a flat surface. This very rare example was described by Charles Dangre, Carnet de la Fouragere, No 1, Decembre 1927, No 53, Plate VI, Figs 87 and 88.

A very rare modigication, rarely seen. 

Regards

D. 

[Steve1871]

Rare and very strange there D’, the way they made the  cut, shave back the rear of the ring almost makes it look like it is bent forward, if you did not explain, I would not have understood. Thanks for another rare Gem here!

[AndyBsk]

Strange that the muzzle ring was bent forwards, which would bring a non consistent muzzle ring diameter in ring. Its a non standart rework for german rifle. The hook was soldered on older scabbard which remains still the holes for origin french bridge, not extra well done. Interesting but little ugly. There should be look at crossguard as the area looks like welded on right side. It could be reworked by small facility so from that a not typical refurbishment.

Edited 4 June , 2023 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Gents,

The description of this rare ersatz bayonet, on Roy William's book (part 2).

Andy was correct about the bents on the ring. Unusual methodology, so the very rare of this model. 

Regards, 

D. 

Edited 5 June , 2023 by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Is there any french engraving on the spine of blade? The conversion looks identical. Is there similar unit stamp on the reverse crossguard?

Edited 5 June , 2023 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Αndy, yes, i can see something, but i have to clean the surface because has a lot of rust. 

When donne i will post a photo. 

Regards

D. 

[zuluwar2006]

Here are some more detailed photos from this very rare ersatz bayonet. 

Regards

D. 

[AndyBsk]

This conversion is post french-prussian war 1871 realised and Landwehr marked, there exist other samples only with this Landwehr units, as You presented even here with R.Williams samples,  so this was specificied to a local refurbishment. I assume there was most real too 90.L. II. or I. Batallion on that crossguard. unfortunally not visible on that rust areas. The piece was captured by germans in french-prussian war as is marked with Imperiale de Mutzig 1868 dated. Certainly the barell ring should be filled to 17,4mm on front part as by bending it was reduced on diameter. I assume it was used with Inf.Gew 71.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Andy, 

This particular and very rare convertion, is made to fix the bayonet on the Gew 88 rifle. That is said by Carter and prior him, from Dangre. 

Regards, D. 

[AndyBsk]

I believe that this is a error repeated by Carter from Dangre. As Dangre only collected various adaptations, that were postwar avialable on market, which was not clearly designate are pre WW1 date  or WW1 period conversion.

This conversion is certainly scarce or rare, as it was done only on small number of bayonets, because typical rework for area of 90.Landwehr Regiment. There exist many post french prussian war extra conversion, which are not exactly described in all bayonet books.

The confusion is done because this conversion is post french-prussian war on captured M1866 Chassepot bayonets ,that they used on IG 1871 when reposting to Landwehr and ersatz units post 1884 when equip the main unit with G71/84. The main aspect here is the unit marking, even here not exact visible, but i assume its identical to the 90.Landwehr Regiment pieces pictured in Williams book (offcoarse EB108 is a fantasy designation, never existed in Germany), and maybe others, this unit stamp is declared in manual 1877, but after restructuralisation of Landwehr post 1888 it was not used Landwehr Regiment with roman numerals for Batallion designations in this way. LIR90 was the second Regiment of Mecklenburg. Since 1889 the structure was renamed to Landwehr Bezirken and LW Batallions , nr.II. Batallion was located in Rostock. 90L.II.xx is real only into 1889 timeframe.

The main thing is the piece is pre 1870 production, as prior the war was used only imperial name on french arsenals. So the bayonet is with high possibility captured by germans in Franco prussian war. Using with Gew88 is unreal, even the change of handle when made for IG1871 is then possible to use on Gew.88.

Rudiger wrote about various conversion of Chassepot for new IG1871 mainly with LW and Landsturm units, when it became obsolete by normal army units. This was called Aptiertes franz.Seitengewehr Chassepot fuer IG1871

Secondly Chassepot bayonets M1866 were by Frenchs already 1890 declared as obsolete, and were not used even on refurbishment M1866/74 rifles with Gras metall cartridge which could be used in WW1 by echelon units, they were serialed with newer Gras M1874 bayonets.

Edited 19 June , 2023 by AndyBsk