WW1 GERMAN BAYONETS FROM MY COLLECTION

[Steve1871]

Thanks for this great post!       
I love it when you go the extra effort with that great history as well. I did not know they were  Only made for two years! Is this one an original M.60 or bushed. M60/71. Just curious. I have both, but they are so impressive for any collector  Love it

[zuluwar2006]

Dear "son", thank you for the gentle comments!!! 

This speciment it is not bushed. Bushed M 1860 fusilier bayonets are extremely rare and overpriced now. 

Regards, D. 

[Steve1871]

Are you being SPOILED by family today? I hope so!!!😊

Think I have 2 original M1860’s. And 3 M60/71.  One with new made S71 guard, and another with the usual bushed ring. These are the longest, maybe biggest of the old types. Hard to find. Do you think the original 60 is more rare than the 60/71? I simply do not know? But Reeeeeealy fun to play with😊😊😊😊.  Enjoy Christmas Demitrios 

[AndyBsk]

Nice Fuss.M1860 bayonet, i assume the unit is stamped in older way with C for designation of company, the digit could be 1 instead of 4, but that is visible better on the piece, the maker is well known large Solingen maker Schnitzler & Kirschbaum. The conversion were done for Artillerie S1871 with the blade from FS1860.

Edited 26 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents, 

For new year's eve, i present an extremely hard to find bayonet : a  Pionierfaschinenmesser M/71 bayonet for Konigreich Sachsen (Kingdom of Saxony). 

As far as i know, this is the ONLY saxon unit marked bayonet for the 1 Pionier Bataillon Nr. 12 so and the great rarity. 

This type of bayonet, is similar to the later made Prussian bayonets pfm M/71 and the heavy brass hilt resemble those of the Pfm M/65 nA. 

Manufacturer is the firm "Gebruder Simson Suhl". There is no date on the spine of the blade. Walter, is describing another example from same manufacturer without date on it (page 116, volume IV). 

On the spine of the blade the capital letters G. S. (for firm manyfacturer Gebruder Simson?). 

On the crossguard the extremely rare and only catalogued unit marking 12.R.P. 95 for 1st Reserve Saxon Pioneer Bataillon, number of weapon 95.

On the brass hilt again the monogramms for manufacturer and a gothic stamp. 

Another gothic stamp on the underide of the crossguard. 

Must be a speciment from the first produced saxon marked bayonets, but again this is a speculation of me. 

We must consider that during the time of manufacturing this bayonet, the 22 Pionier Bataillon was not introduced yet (raised on 1.10.1899) so only the 12th Pionier Bataillon existed. 

Nevertheless a very rare saxon marked pfm M/71 bayonet with a unit marking never catalogued before!!! 

Regards to all, a better 2024 to come, with prosperity, health and great bayonets to all!!! 

D. 

And the stamp on the underside of the crossguard. 

Regards, D. 

[AndyBsk]

Nice PFM1871, GS is for Gebr.Simson, the unit could be different was described as Reserve Companie of 12.Pionier Batallion nr.12, weapon nr.95. In that case it could be earlier as 1899 similar serialing. I believe there is remains of crown A on spine, but was cleaned out.

[bert.f]

Hello everyone.

Great bayonet Zuluwar . 

one small note on the markings . I don't think the letters "GS" on the spine of the blade indicate the manufacturer.

Happy New Year 

[Rafal1971]

Robert may be right

If I remember correctly, the quality mark for this metal is "Stahlguss" - which means cast steel. I have the impression that I saw the first such letters on the socket 1862 model.

Happy New Year 2024 !

[AndyBsk]

Gussstahl was deciphered different way, the bayonet itself was delivered in parts which were marked by maker in that case Gebr.Simson, as in that period was the official name so. Its possible it was completed by Erfurt or by other workshops. Bert You should look at Ruediger book. Gussstahl ist one word name, not diverted by dots. The handle brass cast is too deciphered by Gebr.Simson only in script font above the inspector letter.

Happy New year 2024.

Edited 31 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Hello Andy.

I didn't write that "GS" means "Gussstahl"

I wrote that the letters GS on the spine of the blade do not mean manufacturer

Edited 31 December , 2023 by bert.f
błąd

[AndyBsk]

I personally tend to maker shortage in that case.

[Rafal1971]

Rafal is not Robert

Rafał wrote about cast steel.

At the same time, I agree with Robert's statement that G.S is not a Gebruder Simpson designation
Since this space is intended for the king's monogram, maybe Georg of Saxony

[AndyBsk]

Wrong way, You dont see the A above the GS on spine, which is only partly visible. Maybe G.S. is different as Gebr.Simson but is certainly not king Georg. Other point is offcoarse GR was already on S98/02 of saxon pieces. Offcoarse this form of maker is real only to 1880  or around as it was changed to Simson & Co.Suhl.

 

Edited 31 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

When You look at R.Williams vol I. pg.191 and 193 is identical maker on HF1871 of Saxony, G.S. on spine, G.S. script on pommel which is certainly Gebr.Simson and maker is Gebr.Simson, the inspector is identical.

On pg.228 is bavarian PFM1871 where is identical script G.S. on pommel and spine so i tend to maker shortage with the G.S. as mentioned above.

Edited 31 December , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

I respect your eye for seeing the letter A there (because I can't see it but I have glasses). But I don't understand GS's explanation. Repeating the manufacturer's designation seems unnecessary to me. I would rather bet on the control mark of the country.
I admit that I have no evidence of this, so the discussion seems a bit exaggerated to me without confirmation in documents
Maybe Trajan has something?

 

I saw the markings at Roy's, but as usual he doesn't explain anything. I haven't watched Rudiger yet

[trajan]

I have to admit this seems an odd one with the 'GS' marking for 'Gebruder Simson' - but the parallels are there!

Carter (vol 4, 66) notes for Saxony that 'when more bayonets were required' (he implies for the existing 1st and 2nd Jaeger Batallions, renumbered 1867 Prussian style as Nr.12 and 13), 'the contract was awarded to Gebrueder Simson in Suhl' (of course no reference is given!). 'These bayonets bear no date of royal cipher (my stress added) but were most probably made in 1879. They must predate 1881 because in that year Gebr.Simson became Simson& Co and changed their trademark accordingly.' He goes on to note that three examples known to him, two with unit markings, 'are marked with a script G.S. for Gebrueder Simson just above th acceptance mark to the right of the press stud'.

What is another oddity is that the crowned official 'acceptance' letter varies from one example to another - he records a 'C', 'D', and 'E' - in different positions.

Julian

[bert.f]

Hello.

I wonder whether the markings have something to do with the company "Banking and trading house Splitgerber & Daum"?, under lease the Potsdam-Spandau rifle factory,

they used very similar markings "GS"- Gebruder Schickler ..

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents,

I am very pleased for the great conversation about saxon pfm M/71 bayonet, and the letters G. S. on the spine of the blade. I believe there are the monogramms of manufacturer, but as Rafal said, we have no written prooves for it. Julian made a great observation, which i support. On the other hand, Bert reffered to another opinion with photographic support, so the interesting conversation has to be continued. 

For today, first day of the new year 2024, i present a very rare unit marked ersatz bayonet. The rarity is not only the unit marked of it (as 0,5% ersatz bayonets were unit marked cause of the war time regulations), but also the unit marking is a rarity itself : for 1. Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regt. Nr.2 (Schwedt a.O.) which was part of the III Armee Korp. Brandeburg unit marked bayonets are about the 1% of unit marked ww1 german army bayonets (the Brandeburg and Baden unit markings, are the most rare to find cause of the minority of them, so imagine the great rarity to get a unit marked ersatz bayonet with such a wartime unit marking). 

The Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regiment Nummer 5 (Prinz Wilhelm) was formed on the 16 October, 1807, from the 1st and 2nd squadrons of the old 5th von Balliodz Kürassiere Regiment and the depot, 2nd, 3rd and 4th squadrons of the old 1st Prince William Dragoon Regiment

They had a tradition badge, which was given to the Regiment after an incident during the 1812 war of liberation against France, when a group of Dragoons from this regiment were riding their horses bareback to water, but still managed to repel a French cavalry attack. The badge was also named the "Eagle of Schwedt" (Schwedter Adler) after the regiment's garrison town (see photo of it). 

Unit marking on crossguard is  is 2.D.95 and an inspection seal. This unit marking is for the 1. Brandenburgisches Dragoner-Regt. Nr.2, number of weapon 95.

This model is a variation of the ersatz model EB 38 catalogued on Roy William's book for ersatz bayonets. It comes with an iron scabbard. Remainings from black paint on bayonet and scabbard. The crossguard has 2 iron sheets brazing together, as it is obvioys from photos. 

After the first months of ww1, dragoners regiments were acting as dismounted units and had to crawl through the mud like all others army units. So they had to carry arms like other infantry regiments, so and the use of ersatz bayonets in the trenches, as a necessity and not a choice. 

On the 2 photos, you can see dragoons photographed during ww1, on first photo the left standing dragoon (as we see the photo) is carrying an EB 56 ersatz "wyttemberg" bayonet. 

By the beginning of 1915, with the solidifying of the trench system, they could no longer find employment on the Western Front. II and IV Cavalry Corps were dissolved and I and III Cavalry Corps were transferred to the East. With less use as pure Cavalry formations, each underwent a series of redesignations according to their particular role from time to time. Two new Corps were formed in June 1915 (V and VI Cavalry Corps) as a gap opened between the Army of the Niemen and 10th Army during the Courland offensive. With the conclusion of the offensive, all four Cavalry Commanders were assigned sectors of the front and thus took on the functions similar to a normal Corps and were reorganised in a similar fashion. Therefore, for the Romanian Campaign, none of the existing Cavalry Corps were brought in, instead a new temporary Cavalry Corps was set up in Transylvannia (Cavalry Corps "Schmettow").Finally, all the Cavalry Corps were redesignated as General Commands for Special Use Generalkommandos zur besonderen Verwendung (Genkdo z.b.V.) and were indistinguishable from other Corps (56th-59th and 65th Corps (z.b.V.)).

All the best to all, 

Regards, D. 

 

Edited 1 January by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

To Bert when look at Potsdam GS  info it was in private hands prior 1850 of Bank Gebr.Schickler which has nothing to do with Gebr.Simson, secondly 1850 it was nationalised and moved to Spandau, so G.S. in that case has no reason. Even the initials are identical. 

"Die Gewehrfabrik stellte entsprechend der damaligen Wortbedeutung „Gewehr“ neben Handfeuerwaffen auch Hieb- und Stichwaffen her. Hauptabnehmer war die Preußische Armee. Bis 1850 lag die Fertigung im Rahmen eines Pachtvertrages in privater Hand. Danach wurde der Betrieb vom Staat übernommen und der Standort Potsdam aufgegeben. Das Werk Spandau bildete den Grundstock der dortigen Rüstungsindustrie."

Why is the Gebr.Simson twice on blade is most real for initial contract, which could be done in parts, and later as no time to assembly by Erfurt or other large armory, the completation was done by Gebr.Simson,  similar way it was described by Ruediger, as many contracts were so signed, because by problems were known what from came the parts, the script G.S. on pommel is clearly deciphered and confirmed for Gebr.Simson. And even You dont see the A there, similar A was stamped on early production for Saxony, which is partly even non signed also wout A, since 1898 was used only AR king designation.

Edited 1 January by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

The black paint on ASG88/98 is not period as applied on rusted area, and the Dragoner unit is nice, even there is not clear what for company is it? In part of the unit is the inspector proof where normally would be the company nr.

Edited 1 January by AndyBsk

[trajan]

4 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

... And even You dont see the A there, similar A was stamped on early production for Saxony, which is partly even non signed also wout A, since 1898 was used only AR king designation.

But Andy, look at Carter vol 4 66-67. He lists 12 Hf.M.71 all made by Gebr.Simson, NONE with a royal cipher or year mark! This is why he wrote, 'These bayonets bear no date or royal cipher...'

Julian

[AndyBsk]

pg.230 Williams vol I. A on spine of PFM1865/71 of Saxony, identical Gebr.Simson marked. Nice to see the A under crown is  weakly stamped. Carter didnt reports all the variation offcoarse.

And by the pictures presented by Demitrios i would measure the width of blade on ricasso as the ricasso here looks like larger as on typical PFM1871, i would tend this blade was from PFM1865, when more width as 36mm, the ricasso as more wide as typical on PFM1871. There could be made too a weight test as PFM1865 blades are heavier as the PFM1871.  Ruediger wrote that they reused older blades with adding on new handles on various places.

Edited 1 January by AndyBsk

[zuluwar2006]

Dear Gents,

Today i present you a plain transitional 98/05 aA bayonet with a rare war time unit marking for 164th (4th Hannover) Infantry Regiment. The bayonet is without scabbard. 

The manufacturer of the bayonet is the Stahlblume (logo an angel with trumpet), associated with Schulte & Co Gevelsberg which is in Ruhr area.

There exist only 1915 or undated pieces with Stahlblume Schulte manufacturer, the undated are early high rings so early 1915, as the bayonet i present here.

On the spine of the blade no date or king's monogramm. This is common for this type of bayonet from this asdociation for manufacturing. 

Unit marking is 164.R.2.59 for 164th (4th Hannover) Infantry Regiment, 2nd company, number of weapon 59.

Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 164 was an Imperial German Army regiment that was attached to the 39th Infantry Brigade, X Corps (Kingdom of Hanover, Grand Duchy of Oldenburg, and Duchy of Brunswick) on the Western Front of World War I.

To protect the handle of the bayonets from the flame of shots the germans constructed a steel plate on 98/05 bayonet, called flashguard.  There are 2 transiotonsl models gor 98/05 bayonets :

A) Transitional SG 98/05 n.A. Bayonets have a modified crosspiece, but they are not equipped with protective plates.

Β/ Transitional SG 98/05 a.A. have fire protection plates, but the crosspiece has remained unchanged, as the bayonet shown. 

A transitional model 98/05 bayonet with a war time unit marking. 

Last photo is from Roy William's book, where there is another similar bayonet as the presented here, without date or cypher on the spine of the blade. 

Regards, D. 

 

 

Edited 2 January by zuluwar2006

[AndyBsk]

Hello Demitrios, have You time to measure the PFM1871 Saxon of 12.P.Batallion for width of the blade on ricasso? It would be nice to have confirmation its a 1865 or 1871 blade? Thanks.

The S98/05aA with flashguard was corectly deciphered by unit and by maker, the condition is as wrongly stored last 100 years. 

 

[Steve1871]

Hey Demitrios 

On  your S.71PFM.     
I do not believe the G.S. Stands for Gebr Simson like Trajan thinks.    
I just looked at my PFM’s. Two of them have the G.S. On spine and pommels and both are Gerbr Simson make. No sense/ reason to stamp name and then do the initials. I read somewhere that the G.S. Stamps are quality of metal. Both of these are Bavarian PFM’s.   
 

P.S.  great find for your collection! Thanks for posting it, made my day😊

Edited 2 January by Steve1871