New Deactivation of weapons regulations

[593jones]

If I am reading those guidance notes correctly, then it would appear that only newly de-activated firearms, i.e., firearms de-activated after 8th April will be subject to the new regulations/law. If a firearm had been deactivated before that date, to the then current standard, it would be legal for sale and ownership pending any further guidance.

[peregrinvs]

Legal to own, but not legal to sell or transfer. This will hopefully be remedied in the forthcoming EU Firearms Directive + UK Policing and Crime Bill, but there are no guarantees.

[trenchtrotter]

It really is such a mess and I hope it gets sorted but there are still big threats and though the threat to deac automatics MAY be reducing its far from gone.?

[peregrinvs]

Update from the DWA that explains why some dealers have chosen to ignore the EU Regulation:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/957eb3_ec6b403be6d54a0c9f20f1b95963ce52.pdf

If you wish to sell a non-EU spec deact, you would appear to still have a window of opportunity.

[593jones]

Update from the DWA that explains why some dealers have chosen to ignore the EU Regulation:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/957eb3_ec6b403be6d54a0c9f20f1b95963ce52.pdf

If you wish to sell a non-EU spec deact, you would appear to still have a window of opportunity.

In view of this, I wonder if any other dealers will follow D & B's lead and start to sell again until the propose new law becomes effective. the DWA update suggests it could be at least the middle of May before the situation is cleared up, this is quite a long time for dealers to be losing business.

[healdav]

Update from the DWA that explains why some dealers have chosen to ignore the EU Regulation:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/957eb3_ec6b403be6d54a0c9f20f1b95963ce52.pdf

If you wish to sell a non-EU spec deact, you would appear to still have a window of opportunity.

Regulations, or directives are not 'forced' on everyone by the wicked EU. The member governments have to vote for whatever, and can, and do, turn things down. One draft regulation which comes to mind that never saw the light of day was an attempt to get standards levels of security at nuclear reactor and production sites (unbelievably, but true). I was one of the people that wrote the draft. The Council of Ministers reaction was f... off in the most gentle case.

Edited 3 May , 2016 by healdav
political content

[Radlad]

Regulations, or directives are not 'forced' on everyone by he wicked EU. The meber governments have to vote for whatever, and can, and do, turn things down.

Is this statement not incorrect? my understanding is that Eu directives and regulations must be accepted by a country unless they have an opt out drawn up when negotiating the initial treaty. Did the 'Spanish fishing vessel' affair not prove that to the UK? How much in wasted expenditure did your failed draft involve?

One thing that many people do not realise is that Britain is the main protagonist in EU firearms legislation. Most of what comes out of the Eu in that direction is UK driven. We have long had some of the strictest firearms controls in the world and successive governments have Strived to bring all the EU in line with us. The massive changes that took place in French and Belgian legislation during the mid 2000 period , were made necessary by conditions insisted on by Britain during Schengen treaty negotiation.

Edited 16 April , 2016 by Keith Roberts
political content

[keithmroberts]

Hi

I have edited a couple of posts and hidden one.. I have no wish to interfere with proper discussion regarding the legal framework and the changes discussed here, but please no comments that can be seen on having relevance to matters directly political. I appreciate that there can be a fine line, but ask all members to tread it carefully.

Thanks

Keith Roberts

[healdav]

Is this statement not incorrect? my understanding is that Eu directives and regulations must be accepted by a country unless they have an opt out drawn up when negotiating the initial treaty. Did the 'Spanish fishing vessel' affair not prove that to the UK? How much in wasted expenditure did your failed draft involve?

One thing that many people do not realise is that Britain is the main protagonist in EU firearms legislation. Most of what comes out of the Eu in that direction is UK driven. We have long had some of the strictest firearms controls in the world and successive governments have Strived to bring all the EU in line with us. The massive changes that took place in French and Belgian legislation during the mid 2000 period , were made necessary by conditions insisted on by Britain during Schengen treaty negotiation.

The Commission draws up whatever. Most of what they draw up as proposals is requested by member states, organisations and even individuals (the 112 number was the result of thousands of people writing to the Commission asking for a common emergency number).

Once the document has been accepted by the Commissioners (which can take a long time), it goes to an expert committee made up of members from the member states. They have a go at it, and amend it, etc. The Commission then has another go at it, and it goes to the European Parliament, for its imput and amendments. Then the document goes back to the Commission for a final polish, putting into legal form, etc. Then it goes to the Council of Ministers who have the final say.

They can't PROPOSE legislation, but they can amend proposals. So, unfortunately, you get the situation where the Council completely distorts what was proposed, but as they are amending a proposal they get away with it. Once accepted by them i.e. effectively member state governments, it becomes law.

Then when it turns out that the 'amendments' made by the Council are a nonsense they all stand and say solemnly that it is all the Commission's fault. Believe me, I have seen it so many times over the years. Fisheries Policy, pleasure craft directive, and many more.

The procedure varies from subject to subject, but the above is the basic outline. Believe me, it can take years, and usually does. The people who think that someone in the Commission (one of us faceless bureaucrats) gets up in the morning, looks out of the window and thinks, "it looks like a lovely day for passing a stupid regulation", and it is law by the evening are, well, just plain stupid (there are many such people).

On weapons, I'm not an expert, but it will have gone through this sort of process.

There are some subjects where there are majority votes by the Council rather than unanimous. That was brought in because certain countries, name no names, basically sat and yelled 'veto' at something that everyone else wanted. And did it time after time just as a policy in itself. Optouts are a purely political affair, granted by the Council, to shut up the British (roughly speaking).

I hope this helps.

Incidentally, the original draft is usually based roughly on legislation which already exists on the subject in one or more member states (well, you have to start somewhere). Very, very little is totally original.

[peregrinvs]

I sent the Home Office an email on the 3rd asking them to clarify whether selling a deact after the 8th April would be illegal and received a reply yesterday.

"Dear Sir / Madam,

I have read that it will become illegal after the 8th April 2016 to sell or transfer a UK deactivated firearm unless it has be re-deactivated to the new specifications laid out in the EU Firearms Directive.

Could you confirm whether this is definitely the case and if so, clarify what current UK statute authorises this?"

The reply:

"Thank you for your letter of 3 April to the Home Office. Your email has been transferred to the Direct Communications Unit at the Home Office and I have been asked to respond.

The UK has some of the toughest gun laws in the world and we are determined to keep it that way. The terrible events in Paris on 13 November 2015 clearly demonstrated the urgency with which we must tackle the supply of illegal firearms into and around the EU. This includes ensuring we prevent the diversion of weapons from licit sources into the hands of criminals and, ultimately, terrorists. We need to take co-ordinated action across the European Union to tackle the trade and supply of illegal firearms.

I note your concerns about the arrangements being made for bringing into effect the EU Commission Implementing Regulation 2015/2403 on deactivation standards.

The Implementing Regulation is made under the Firearms Directive. It is directly applicable in the UK and, once it enters into force, applies immediately without the need for it to be transposed into national law and the courts will be under a duty to uphold its requirements in any proceedings. We will also use the Policing and Crime Bill to introduce a Government amendment at Commons Committee stage which will create a specific new offence to sell or gift a weapon that has not been deactivated to the new EU Deactivation Standards. A link to the Standards is attached:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/514403/Commission_Implementing_Regulation_2015_2403.pdf.

I trust this clarifies the Government’s position".

Can you see what he did there? i.e. giving the firm impression that you'd be breaking the law without actually explaining what current UK law you'd be breaking.

e.g. "the courts will be under a duty to uphold its requirements in any proceedings". Well yes, that's their job I believe... But on what charge would these proceedings be?

This bit worries me rather more: "We will also use the Policing and Crime Bill to introduce a Government amendment at Commons Committee stage which will create a specific new offence to sell or gift a weapon that has not been deactivated to the new EU Deactivation Standards". Has it already been decided that the previous UK specs won't be re-recognised, even if the EU Firearms Directive allows it?

[healdav]

A typical reply from the Home Office. It doesn't tell you anything but is full of guff that they can quote at some stage if you protest that they told you something.

They even manage to mix their terms. A Directive has to be transposed into national law (that is the whole point of the distinction between that and a Regulation), and yet they talk about a Regulation as well.

The message from this is that they don't have a clue and are certainly not going to commit themselves to anything at all in the way of a real answer. Someone might then hold them responsible.

Try complaining to the Customs (as I have) and they just recite tripe about the law they operate under and don't address your compalint at all. Basically, their reply is 'get stuffed'.

[peregrinvs]

Indeed. Kind of the response I was expecting and - sort of - amusing. You can understand how a lot of people would be scared off by that form of words.

I've decided to torment them further with another question about whether they would 're-recognise' the previous UK specifications for sale or transfer if the forthcoming EU Firearms Directive permits it?

[T8HANTS]

The next fight is going to be over Clause 81 of the police and crime bill which would give the police and only the police the right to be consulted by the home secretary when making amendments to the home office guide on firearms law.

So no more input from collectors, sporting organisations, and the mythical 'stakeholders', etc.

[munce]

To be fair to the Home Office, the letter is relatively clear to me! The new EU rules come in the form of a Regulation, but are made with respect to a previous Firearms Directive. As it is a Regulation, it applies in the UK without the need for any transposing. It doesn't, in and of itself, create any criminal offences. But the courts must uphold its requirements - so I would assume that anyone who does not abide by its terms risks falling foul of existing criminal legislation created following the transposition of the earlier Firearms Directive. I'm no expert on UK gun law, but I assume that there is a risk that, should someone try to sell an article which has not been deactivated according to the new EU standards, it could be treated by the courts as a un-deactivated firearm. As there's some speculation in that, and no doubt plenty of scope for lawyers to command some hefty fees in arguing it out, to make absolutely sure where people stand with respect to any potential criminal offence committed, a new offence of not selling or gifting an deactivated firearm which does not comply with the EU standards will be created through the Police and Crime Bill.

So reading that letter makes me think that there's a real risk of committing an offence right now by selling an article which doesn't comply.

[593jones]

As the Police and Crime Bill is still going through it's parliamentary stages, then it is not yet law. So although the EU Regulatiion applies to UK law, technically the law does not yet exist, under what act would someone selling a non-EU standard deactivated firearm be prosecuted?

I don't know if anyone else has pointed it out, but the Law Commission produced a report on UK Firearms Law which included a section on deactivated weapons. Link here: http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/lc363_firearms.pdf The section on deactivated firearms is pages 32 to 41.

[Toby Brayley]

interesting read

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/514403/Commission_Implementing_Regulation_2015_2403.pdf

[T8HANTS]

Under the Police and Crime Bill proposed Clause 81, such a submission will not be valid, as only the police will have the right to consult with the Home Secretary when drafting firearms legislation.

[593jones]

Under the Police and Crime Bill proposed Clause 81, such a submission will not be valid, as only the police will have the right to consult with the Home Secretary when drafting firearms legislation.

If that goes through, then it looks like we're stuffed!

[munce]

Under the Police and Crime Bill proposed Clause 81, such a submission will not be valid, as only the police will have the right to consult with the Home Secretary when drafting firearms legislation.

The numbering of clauses seems to have been altered: if you mean what is now clause 107, I don't think you're reading it quite correctly. The guidance in question is guidance specifically to the police, and, while the Home Secretary must consult the police prior to issueing it, there is nothing in the clause which would stop her consulting anyone else.

[martin_sole]

This from the solicitor at the Deactivated Weapons Association last Thursday:

http://dwa977.wix.com/dwa1#!eu-legislation/b7t85

There is clearly an expectation under the EU Regulation (EU 2015/2403) which comes into force on 8th April 2016 that all deactivated firearms placed on the market for sale from that date anywhere in the EU, including within the UK, will conform to the new standard on deactivation as specified in the Regulation.

Aside from the lack of clarity as to the technical specifications and exactly what in practical terms will meet the new deactivation standard, I understand DWA members are concerned about what action could be taken against them by the UK authorities if they sell in the UK or place on the market a deactivated firearm after 8th April 2016 which is deemed not to meet the new deactivation standard.

Strictly, the EU Regulation becomes legally binding without the need for further domestic legislation to introduce it into UK law. However, the question arises what sanction could be imposed for failing to comply. On 24th March 2016 a new clause was introduced into the Policing and Crime Bill currently going through Parliament which, if enacted, will give formal effect to this EU Regulation by making it a criminal offence to make available for sale or to sell or gift a defectively deactivated weapon i.e. one not deactivated to the EU standard. This offence will be punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment.

However, until such time as this Bill is actually passed as an Act of Parliament and entered on the UK Statute Book, there is in my opinion currently no criminal offence in UK law for which a person could properly be arrested or successfully prosecuted by the Police or other UK law enforcement agencies if they sell or place on the market for sale a deactivated firearm which meets the present UK deactivation standard but fails to comply with the new EU deactivation standards.

The fact that this clause was added to the Bill by Parliament as an afterthought indicates that it was realised a new criminal offence and penalty needed to be introduced into UK law to create a sanction for failing to comply with this EU Regulation. It is extremely rare for UK legislation, particularly where it creates a criminal offence, to have retrospective effect. The new offence proposed by the Bill will therefore only apply if and when that legislation actually comes into force.

Some DWA members may be registered firearms dealers (RFD) and also hold a section 5 authority from the Home Office in respect of prohibited weapons. Until it becomes an offence in UK law to sell deactivated firearms which do not conform to the new EU standard, it is difficult to see how any perceived failure by them to comply with this EU Regulation could potentially jeopardise their RFD certificate and section 5 authority.

However, members who are concerned about this may wish to consult their local Police Firearms Licensing Department for guidance.

[593jones]

I wonder if that will persuade any dealers who are currently not selling deacts to change their policy. It does seem clear that, if they do continue selling, they cannot be breaking a law which does not yet exist.

[kuksmith]

There are two elements: EC Deactivated Weapons regulations and the separate revision of the EU Weapons Directive. The former came into operation 8th April and was, reportedly, signed-off by ALL EU states. The Deactivate manufacturers Association (DWA)have been very good indeed at arguing the de-act's corner and have got a government review being sought. That may not do too much so don;t get too hopeful I'm not a DWA member (since I'm not interested in de-acts and prefer them live) but recognise their very good work. Regulations WILL be applied by EU Member States. At the time of writing, there may be a technical offence but there is no sanction in UK law until the Police and Crime Bill have completed their UK Parliamentary scrutiny.

The Weapons Directive is still subject to debate and it is essential that everybody lobby their own MEP very hard. Vikki Ford is the influential Internal Market committee (IMCO) chair and "rapporteur" and had been highly critical of the EC proposals; a number of countries have objected. However, the professional bureucrats have themselves been working very hard and the LIBE and EESC of the EU have come out broadly in support of the proposed revisions.

There is still time before the final votes in the European Parliament, so now is the time to lobby MEP's

[healdav]

You should also note that putting provisions on enfocing whatever it is, in the Police Bill has nothing to do with the EU. That is Britain's problem. You should lobby your MP about this.

[MikeyH]

According to an item in today's 'Times', British re-enactors attending the Battle of the Somme centenary events, will have their 'replica'? Lee-Enfields confiscated on arrival in France. The group concerned is 'The Great War Society' who will be 'dressed in the uniform of 'the Accrington Pals, the 11th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment'.

Vicky Ford, Tory MEP for the East of England, is quoted as saying that the new EU laws have 'unintended consequences that could affect museums, collectors and activities such as historic re-enactments'.

Mike.

[mark holden]

Yesterday I spoke with a leading UK dealer in deactivated weapons. He initially stopped selling deacs on 08 April 16 but has since had legal advice that until the EU directive is enacted into UK law then the risk of prosecution is almost negligible. Once the EU directive is enshrined in UK law then he said he would stop selling deacs and diversify into antique weapons