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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

New Deactivation of weapons regulations


flers1916

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Well 8/4 tommorrow. Interesting to see what happens with dealers. Will they continue to sell to current uk spec or change. Will they drop prices and inform buyers of new spec and what they will get or buyer beware?

TT

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What would be the consequences of selling at the current spec after tomorrow? If it is, presumably, illegal, who will check that the law is not being broken? Police firearms officers? It will be interesting to see if someone is prosecuted under the new ruling.

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Guest JPWilliams

I feel some sort of greeting or small formal welcome from some gangsters and mafiosi welcoming forum members

to criminality is in order. 1 hour and many old collectors will be.

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No only if you sell or transfer without upgrading. New offence will carry 5

EU regs in force 8/4 but Brit Law will lag by a short time span only.

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Just checked a few web sites and many dealers as of 0001 hrs have withdrawn all deacs until situation clearer.

TT

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Although some are still selling unaltered deacs as at 0800 today without any clear warning of the potential implications of the new EU regs. I'll be at the Leeds Fair on Sunday so I'll see first hand what is actually happening with those deac dealers. I assume thatbas it is not yet in UK law that there is still a legal loophole??

regards

Mark

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I think that is right Mark. There is a small window between the EU date and UK law.

TT

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There's a minor mystery here. In theory an EU Regulation (rather than a Directive) doesn't have to be transposed into a member states' domestic law + the language in the freshly updated Home Office guide to UK firearms law seems to be unambiguous that it's illegal to sell or transfer after 8th April. However, I cannot find any current UK legal amendment, SI, update, etc. that confirms this is the case - so what exactly could you be arrested / prosecuted / etc. for? I did drop an email to the Home Office public enquiries unit earlier this week asking for clarification, but have yet to receive a reply.

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There's a minor mystery here. In theory an EU Regulation (rather than a Directive) doesn't have to be transposed into a member states' domestic law + the language in the freshly updated Home Office guide to UK firearms law seems to be unambiguous that it's illegal to sell or transfer after 8th April. However, I cannot find any current UK legal amendment, SI, update, etc. that confirms this is the case - so what exactly could you be arrested / prosecuted / etc. for? I did drop an email to the Home Office public enquiries unit earlier this week asking for clarification, but have yet to receive a reply.

So I wonder if that would give sellers leeway to trade in old spec de-activations before the directive becomes part of UK law. It will be interesting to hear the Home Office response, I hope you will keep us updated.

Just looked at Saracen Exports website and they have this notice on:

MPORTANT NOTICE

Due to the new EU regulation we are no longer allowed to sell UK legally de-activated weapons. All items will be updated once the new specification has been agreed upon. Please contact us should you wish to register an interest in any of the legally de-activated weapons we presently hold.

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Hi all

There is a new "guide to firearms legislation" April 2016, parts 2.21 ,2.22, 28.11-28 are all relevant to the current law. The Business Innovation and Skill department who sort out the import/export license now required to take a de-activated weapon in and out of the country don't know either when I asked earlier this week and quoted the old legislation, after I explained the new acts I'm still awaiting a reply. As it stands if you take a deactivated weapon out of the country it must be to the new EU standard........which is.....who knows as it hasn't yet been agreed upon and is still being debated. Although there are I believe new UK deactivation specifications published.

Regards

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It seems to me that traders will stand to lose a lot of business until this mess is sorted out, who will be responsible for that, the EU or the British government. Best of luck to any trader looking to seek redress for lost income!

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a complete **** up as usual, be a good laugh when trying to police

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The daft thing about it is we are now recommending that new members of our living history group get live firers on FAC as they are much less hassle to get in and out of the country!

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I was at the Leeds Militaria Fair today, The big dealers like Worldwide Arms and JC Militaria only had antique pieces which are unaffected by the change-no modern rifles or handguns to be seen on their tables. Others still had pre 08 April stock, handguns, LMGs etc and seemed to think that until formally passed into UK law they would be OK to keep selling. I have to say there was not a single consistent opinion in the room. There was a feeling amongst some that the campaign to maintain the specs as pre 08 April was not yet dead and therefore some were holding off from having their stock modified until it was definitively sorted. No Police around so I imagine they are a) to busy and B) as confused as everyone else!

regards

Mark

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There are a number of de-activated weapons on offer in current and forthcoming auctions. Wonder if the auction houses are aware of the new regs.?

Mike.

edit to say, that some of these have now been withdrawn from the auctions in question.

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I was at the Leeds Militaria Fair today, The big dealers like Worldwide Arms and JC Militaria only had antique pieces which are unaffected by the change-no modern rifles or handguns to be seen on their tables. Others still had pre 08 April stock, handguns, LMGs etc and seemed to think that until formally passed into UK law they would be OK to keep selling. I have to say there was not a single consistent opinion in the room. There was a feeling amongst some that the campaign to maintain the specs as pre 08 April was not yet dead and therefore some were holding off from having their stock modified until it was definitively sorted. No Police around so I imagine they are a) to busy and B) as confused as everyone else!

regards

Mark

I note that D&B Militaria (a large and established deact dealer with much to lose if they've got it wrong) still seem to be trading normally - they even put on ad on Milweb yesterday stating they are still buying deacts. This may lend weight to the theory that there's no way to enforce the EU Regulation until it has been transposed into UK law. On the other hand, World Wide Arms and JC Militaria evidently have a different opinion. Perhaps the Home Office can't or won't give a definitive opinion and they're following the advice of their respective lawyers? All very odd...

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I note that D&B Militaria (a large and established deact dealer with much to lose if they've got it wrong) still seem to be trading normally - they even put on ad on Milweb yesterday stating they are still buying deacts. This may lend weight to the theory that there's no way to enforce the EU Regulation until it has been transposed into UK law. On the other hand, World Wide Arms and JC Militaria evidently have a different opinion. Perhaps the Home Office can't or won't give a definitive opinion and they're following the advice of their respective lawyers? All very odd...

I have had a look at the Press Release of last November about this.

From what I can understand a directive is being/has been passed, a part of which incorporates the regulations of the Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms (the CIP).

What this means is that once the Directive has been passed by the Council of Ministers it will have to be transposed into national laws. The reason for this is that some countries may already have parts of the directive in their national laws, and so don't need to do it again, or may have stricter laws in a particular area than are now called for, so, once again can leave that area as it is.

Given that this directive has to be transposed by 28 countries it is unsurprising that it will take time, and even the professionals are rather confused. It happens with every directive. Trying to make sure that every directive is fully implemented in every country, and in a coherent manner is very difficult, and takes some time to ensure, despite countries having to report to the Commission when they have transposed each clause, and how.

I'm not surprised that this is taking time or that people and lawyers are confused for the moment. It always does, and they always are.

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I note that D&B Militaria (a large and established deact dealer with much to lose if they've got it wrong) still seem to be trading normally - they even put on ad on Milweb yesterday stating they are still buying deacts. This may lend weight to the theory that there's no way to enforce the EU Regulation until it has been transposed into UK law. On the other hand, World Wide Arms and JC Militaria evidently have a different opinion. Perhaps the Home Office can't or won't give a definitive opinion and they're following the advice of their respective lawyers? All very odd...

Presumably D & B Militaria know what they are doing and are acting on the advice of their lawyers. I wonder how long it will take for the EU regulations to be incorporated into UK law. This is a complete mess!

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Presumably D & B Militaria know what they are doing and are acting on the advice of their lawyers. I wonder how long it will take for the EU regulations to be incorporated into UK law. This is a complete mess!

If it turns outto be a Regulation (which I doubt) then it won't need to be incorporated into British law, and will come into force at whatever date is announced. If it is a Directive (most likely) then it will need to be transposed, clause by clause; which is why the countries have six months to do it after th.e Council of Ministers approves the Directive

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If it turns outto be a Regulation (which I doubt) then it won't need to be incorporated into British law, and will come into force at whatever date is announced. If it is a Directive (most likely) then it will need to be transposed, clause by clause; which is why the countries have six months to do it after th.e Council of Ministers approves the Directive

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of the difference between a Regulation and a Directive, I get very confused sometimes! So possibly, firms could have quite a wait until the law becomes effective, with continuing loss of business. There are probably some very unhappy dealers out there.

I suppose dealers could consider that any delay provides a window to continue to sell under the pre-EU regulation or directive until it does become law.

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The new deact specs (when they get round to deciding what they are...) are from a Regulation, not a Directive.

However; the situation 'out in the field' suggests there's currently no mechanism for enforcing a ban on sales in the UK. Either that, or the powers that be are deliberately turning a blind eye, which I would have thought unlikely.

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The new deact specs (when they get round to deciding what they are...) are from a Regulation, not a Directive.

However; the situation 'out in the field' suggests there's currently no mechanism for enforcing a ban on sales in the UK. Either that, or the powers that be are deliberately turning a blind eye, which I would have thought unlikely.

If it is still at the discussion stage there is no Regulation or Directive and so it can't come into force! At the normal rate these things move it could be years yet before they decide what they want. Then the Council of Ministers will ignore what the experts say and enact something that looks good to the ignorant public.

When those affected complain they will be informed sadly that the Commission forced them to do this, against their better judgement. And that will be for the umpteenth time.

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The daft thing about it is we are now recommending that new members of our living history group get live firers on FAC as they are much less hassle to get in and out of the country!

Same here....what a total farce!

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If it is still at the discussion stage there is no Regulation or Directive and so it can't come into force! At the normal rate these things move it could be years yet before they decide what they want. Then the Council of Ministers will ignore what the experts say and enact something that looks good to the ignorant public.

When those affected complain they will be informed sadly that the Commission forced them to do this, against their better judgement. And that will be for the umpteenth time.

Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2403 of 15 December 2015 establishing common guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques for ensuring that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.333.01.0062.01.ENG

"It shall apply from 8 April 2016".

But as previously discussed, there doesn't yet appear to be a means of enforcing it in the UK. It is covered in the Policing and Crime Bill, although the details haven't been settled.

The April 2016 HO guidance on firearms law states the following:

"An EU Implementing Regulation establishing common guidelines on deactivation standards

and techniques for ensuring that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable
will come into force on 8 April 2016. This places a new level of standard for deactivating
firearms across the EU. The new standards shall not apply to firearms deactivated prior to
8 April 2016 (when the Regulation comes into effect) unless those firearms are transferred
to another Member State or placed on the market. The Proof Houses will be applying
these standards to firearms submitted to them on or after 8 April 2016". (page 9)
But there's a slight difference of wording on the Firearms Licensing page of GOV.UK:
"8 April 2016: change in law affecting deactivated firearms
The Implementing regulation 2015/2403 (PDF, 394KB, 11 pages) ‘Establishing common guidelines on deactivation standards and techniques for ensuring that deactivated firearms are rendered irreversibly inoperable’, was published in the EU Official Journal on Saturday 19 December. This has effect from 8 April 2016. All firearms submitted to the Proof Houses from 8 April must comply with this regulation. Further guidance will be issued shortly".
No mention of 'placed on the market', just 'submitted to the Proof Houses'. I wonder if this is a deliberate omission?
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The Police Guidance manual document has been riddled with inaccuracies, incompleteness and misleading information ever since it was first produced, (early 2000's ?) and it looks like they are continuing the tradition. More importantly, it has no legal force.

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