New Deactivation of weapons regulations

[trenchtrotter]

Sorry me again. More gloom if you own Lugers or revolvers eats. Slides and revolving chambers will be welded solid. If you want an example and don't mind losing some money buy now

[Nick Cooper]

Wasn't aware that these changes in legislation were impending, but I can't say I'm surprised. Politicians have been involing the spectre of supposed widespread deac use crime for years, with endless instances of them being brought up in Parliament, given undue attention in committees, and so on. This despite the fact that it was constantly pointed out to them that actual known use of them in crime is minuscule - almost always less than 5 or either still-deactivated, or reactivated. And it should be pointed out that this in the context of non-air weapon offences having been falling substantially and consistently for pretty much every year of the last decade, from 24,094 in 2003/04 to just 4,842 in 2013/14.

Others have been keen to blame the EU, but I suspect the reality is that if there had been the political will here, the new rules could have been rejected on the grounds that our existing ones suffice. In the event, I suspect that those in charge have simply decided to hand-wave through measures they always wanted to enact, anyway, but this way they get to say it was the EU's doing, and to do so without a fight.

[mark holden]

I am at a loss as to how any of the current deac dealers can sustain a business post April 8th based on selling welded up lumps of metal

[Nick Cooper]

I am at a loss as to how any of the current deac dealers can sustain a business post April 8th based on selling welded up lumps of metal

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? A few disgruntled independents complained about being undercut on DVDs by retailers in the Channel Islands, which resulted in not only the Low Value Consignment Relief for the Islands being abolished, but also the VAT threshold for purchases from outside outside the EU being reduced from £18 to a mere £15. In contrast, a whole - largely harmless - business model gets destroyed.

[henryww1]

signed the petition on the Deactivated Weapons Association. If you haven't please consider doing so and soon.

[MikeyH]

Done!

Mike.

[593jones]

It will be interesting to see how the trade handles this - will they have the work done and submit the weapons to the proof houses as soon as the new regulations take effect or will they wait until they have sold the item and then have the work done. If they do all the weapons immediately it will be a lot of work for the proof houses all at once.

The last arms fair I attended was the Leeds fair in, I think, November last year. There were a lot of examples of machine guns and other similar items there, I wonder how much will be at the next, and what the prices will be. How much will people be prepared to pay for a solid lump of metal?

[Stevie]

How much will people be prepared to pay for a solid lump of metal?

The situation will be somewhat different after April 7th regarding the purchase of deactivated weapons. For the next few days (at least) you still have the option of purchasing a fully strippable Mp40 or a welded solid version. After April 7th you will only be able to purchase an (even more) welded solid version. And if you really want one you will have to pay whatever the going rate is. My bet is that dealers will screw you for whatever they can when there is only one deactivation spec available to you. Don't expect to be able to pick up a Lewis for a couple of grand - because it is unlikely to happen.

[trenchtrotter]

The market will decide. There is a possibility that some deacs will be off the market for several months because even the proof houses have not fully interpreted what meets the new standard. Old spec seems to be selling well now before 8/4.

Just hope the second threat goes though as if not some people gonna lose a lot of money.

Dealers not warning customers re second threat at moment?

TT

[593jones]

How much will people be prepared to pay for a solid lump of metal?

The situation will be somewhat different after April 7th regarding the purchase of deactivated weapons. For the next few days (at least) you still have the option of purchasing a fully strippable Mp40 or a welded solid version. After April 7th you will only be able to purchase an (even more) welded solid version. And if you really want one you will have to pay whatever the going rate is. My bet is that dealers will screw you for whatever they can when there is only one deactivation spec available to you. Don't expect to be able to pick up a Lewis for a couple of grand - because it is unlikely to happen.

Well, however much I would like to own a Lewis, a couple of grand would still be too rich for my blood unless I was to win the lottery this week!

I've noticed on the Milweb site there have been quite a few listed with a cut off point of 8th April, so clearly some people are prepared to keep them after this date rather than have them rendered useless lumps of metal.

[healdav]

Others have been keen to blame the EU, but I suspect the reality is that if there had been the political will here, the new rules could have been rejected on the grounds that our existing ones suffice. In the event, I suspect that those in charge have simply decided to hand-wave through measures they always wanted to enact, anyway, but this way they get to say it was the EU's doing, and to do so without a fight.

We're used to it. Politicans do it all the time. And muppets believe them.

[Stevie]

Dealers not warning customers re second threat at moment?

TT

Would you really expect them to? Do you still believe in Father Christmas too?

Edited 29 March , 2016 by Stevie

[msdt]

Well, however much I would like to own a Lewis, a couple of grand would still be too rich for my blood unless I was to win the lottery this week!

I've noticed on the Milweb site there have been quite a few listed with a cut off point of 8th April, so clearly some people are prepared to keep them after this date rather than have them rendered useless lumps of metal.

I think that the cut off point for sale prior to the 8th of April would be prudent on the internet bearing in mind the proposals are for it being illegal to sell beyond that point without redeactivation. However although the new specs are a done deal (once they decide exactly what they are!) let's all keep our fingers crossed that in the end common sense will prevail and guns deactivated prior to April the 8th will not be subject to any legal changes (not sure about existing 'old specs' though).

Cheers,

Tony

[trenchtrotter]

Would you really expect them to? Do you still believe in Father Christmas too?

I will take that in the spirit I think you meant it? Nevertheless the point I was trying to make is buyer beware.

TT

[Dave1418]

However although the new specs are a done deal (once they decide exactly what they are!) let's all keep our fingers crossed that in the end common sense will prevail and guns deactivated prior to April the 8th will not be subject to any legal changes (not sure about existing 'old specs' though).

Cheers,

Tony

Hi Tony,

surely anything prior to the 8th April would be old specification?

Vicky Ford MEP has done some good work and will be putting it forward to the EU if you google her you will find some related articles, nothing is yet set in stone and is highly unlikely to be set in place before the Autumn at the very latest especially from the EU.

Still more waiting to go for the decision.

Regards

Dave

[Stoppage Drill]

Hi Tony,

surely anything prior to the 8th April would be old specification?

Vicky Ford MEP has done some good work and will be putting it forward to the EU if you google her you will find some related articles, nothing is yet set in stone and is highly unlikely to be set in place before the Autumn at the very latest especially from the EU.

Still more waiting to go for the decision.

Regards

Dave

As it was placed between inverted commas I took it to mean the current 'old spec', viz. pre-1992

[trenchtrotter]

Her amendments if accepted include a review of the new deac regs and a proposal that as long as sold in same country if the deac regs mean the gun is never going to fire again then it can be traded as found. I.e in old spec whatever that is. Only a recommendation. Also recommends automatics can be kept if deactivated to current standards.

Let's hope.

TT

[593jones]

Hi Tony,

surely anything prior to the 8th April would be old specification?

Vicky Ford MEP has done some good work and will be putting it forward to the EU if you google her you will find some related articles, nothing is yet set in stone and is highly unlikely to be set in place before the Autumn at the very latest especially from the EU.

Still more waiting to go for the decision.

Regards

Dave

If the issue is still under consideration by the EU and not set in stone, what will happen on 8th April? Will the new regulations have to be enforced or will they be held in abeyance pending a final ruling by the EU? If weapons are deactivated to the proposed standard then the EU decides in it's wisdom that these standards are not required, possibly many weapons will have been ruined for no reason. What a shambles!

[Stevie]

I will take that in the spirit I think you meant it? Nevertheless the point I was trying to make is buyer beware.

TT

It was indeed tongue-in-cheek. I know dealers have a living to make, but collectors should beware when buying from them. When it comes to the new deactivation proposals, very few will be totally honest about what they know. Several are urging collectors to buy current spec deactivated auto weapons; 'while you are still able to.' No mention is made of the fact that they might be outlawed come this June.

[msdt]

Hi 593jones,

I do not think there is any doubt that new deactivations will need to comply with the new EU specs after April the 8th. The issue is the status of all older deactivations and whether they can be held / legally traded.

Cheers,

Tony

[trenchtrotter]

They can be held as it stands. As it also stands if you trade an old spec it will need to be upgraded to EU spec. As it stands now!

Who knows if there will be a postponement pending the Directive? I doubt it.

TT

[Mark Finneran]

I think we all agree that the whole thing is a mess but I would add an extra comment. I had a long time ago a friend who had a deactivated item temporarily held by HM Customs. It was released once the UK deactivation paperwork had been checked. (Fortunately by someone who knew what they were doing).

If one wants to be crystal clear about vocabulary a weapon that is then deactivated, and for this purposes lets say UK Old deac spec, legally is no longer a weapon. I mean by that that legally, by lawful definition it is no longer a weapon - just metal and wood. In a Court of Law it just cannot be called the 'w' word. So I would one: urge people not to say deactivated weapon, this is not a correct term, and misleading whilst playing into the hands of those opposed to history, and two: when looking at this impending huge cock up of additional deac work on new/old items, or whatever, perhaps some very clever legal brain could verify UK's law on deactivated pieces and their rightful classification. I know this does not help much the current challenge but perhaps, just perhaps it is an area that needs further investigation. Could be perhaps an option as deactivated pieces cannot be treated as weapons, by law. If a deac revolver is used in a robbery then that is another matter.

Any legal brains out there far bigger than mine?

Mark

[Nick Cooper]

On 01/04/2016 at 07:04, MG1918 said:

I think we all agree that the whole thing is a mess but I would add an extra comment. I had a long time ago a friend who had a deactivated item temporarily held by HM Customs. It was released once the UK deactivation paperwork had been checked. (Fortunately by someone who knew what they were doing).

If one wants to be crystal clear about vocabulary a weapon that is then deactivated, and for this purposes lets say UK Old deac spec, legally is no longer a weapon. I mean by that that legally, by lawful definition it is no longer a weapon - just metal and wood. In a Court of Law it just cannot be called the 'w' word. So I would one: urge people not to say deactivated weapon, this is not a correct term, and misleading whilst playing into the hands of those opposed to history, and two: when looking at this impending huge cock up of additional deac work on new/old items, or whatever, perhaps some very clever legal brain could verify UK's law on deactivated pieces and their rightful classification. I know this does not help much the current challenge but perhaps, just perhaps it is an area that needs further investigation. Could be perhaps an option as deactivated pieces cannot be treated as weapons, by law. If a deac revolver is used in a robbery then that is another matter.

Any legal brains out there far bigger than mine?

Obviously IANAL, but I have taken an interest in various aspects of firearms law over the years (disclosure: I own two air pistols and one deactivated former semi-automatic pistol).

It is certainly my understanding that under current and all previous legislation a deactivated firearm by definition ceases to be a firearm/weapon. This is confirmed by the fact that a deac cannot be counted as an "imitation firearm," even though it once was a real firearm and continues to look like one (training cutaways excepted).

The same protects air weapons that are fashioned after non-air weapons. They also cannot be counted as imitations, because they are already air weapons. Basically something can only be one thing, and there is no overlap in the definitions in law.

I would think that this may explain why pre-1992 deacs were never mandated for further work. They were already no longer considered to be firearms, and so could not be required to be "re-deactivated."

Edited 9 May , 2020 by Nick Cooper
Typos.

[peregrinvs]

FYI. 'Old-spec' is generally taken to mean pre-October 1995 when the original 1988 specifications were revised and 'assault weapons' (primarily SMG's and assault rifles) had to be welded solid. The specs were revised again slightly in 2010 and are current for one more week. Fingers crossed they are 're-recognised' again at some point as suggested above.

[Dave1418]

It is certainly my understanding that under current and all previous legislation a deactivated firearm by definition ceases to be a firearm/weapon. This is confirmed by the fact that a deac cannot be counted as an "imitation firearm," even though it once was a real firearm and continues to look like one (training cutaways excepted).

The same protects air weapons that are fashioned after non-air weapons. They also cannot be counted as imitations, because they are already air weapons. Basically something can only be one thing, and there is no overlap in the definitions in law.

Hi Nick

De-acts can be imitation firearms but they are not realistic imitation firearms. Similarly air weapons that are fashioned as something else can be classed as both imitation and realistic imitation if you alter a high visibility weapon say orange/yellow/pink and paint it black then that also becomes a realistic imitation firearm. There are specific regulations within the acts and as amended by the VCRA bill which stipulates so.

The new regs are published this month.

They also state that re-enactors who want to take their de-acts in and out of the country will have to have an import license which can last for 3 years...the down side is that it stipulates they must comply with the new EU standards which would I believe makes it easier to take a live firing weapon across to Europe by way of a European firearms permit to your firearms certificate.

regards

Dave