New Deactivation of weapons regulations

[healdav]

3 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I have a friend who is a gunsmith and he has virtually stopped converting guns to deacts in the last 2 years. He could not get any sense out of the proof houses or the Police.

 

Confusion, divide rule, chaos theory?????

 

Typical EU thinking.

More like typical British, make a cock up and blame the EU, 'thinking'.

They do it all the time.

[Gunner Bailey]

3 hours ago, healdav said:

More like typical British, make a cock up and blame the EU, 'thinking'.

They do it all the time.

 

No this started in Brussels after the Charlie Hebdo shootings. It's Brussels and Brussels alone.

[johnboy]

They should stick with regs for chocolate!!

[healdav]

15 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

No this started in Brussels after the Charlie Hebdo shootings. It's Brussels and Brussels alone.

Then nothing to do with the EU. Anyway, if it was it was the sharing, caring, all knowing British government that agreed to it for you (but would now deny any knowledge). As I said, I've seen it hundreds of times.

And the Commission rarely gets up in the morning and writes a directive just for something to do. Someone somewhere asked for it (probably a govenment), and then it was written into EU form using a similar piece of legislation already in force in one country or another, or an amalgam of several. That is what normally happens.

And the bloke who got the job had no axe to grind because he had probably absolutely no knowledge of the subject. He just happened to be there.

[Gunner Bailey]

48 minutes ago, healdav said:

Then nothing to do with the EU. Anyway, if it was it was the sharing, caring, all knowing British government that agreed to it for you (but would now deny any knowledge). As I said, I've seen it hundreds of times.

And the Commission rarely gets up in the morning and writes a directive just for something to do. Someone somewhere asked for it (probably a govenment), and then it was written into EU form using a similar piece of legislation already in force in one country or another, or an amalgam of several. That is what normally happens.

And the bloke who got the job had no axe to grind because he had probably absolutely no knowledge of the subject. He just happened to be there.

I suspect the French government asked for this as they clearly did not understand that the Charlie Hebdo 'deacts' were not deacts for the normal market, but the film industry.

 

Actually the 'bloke who got the job' for the EU was the man in charge of the Liege Proof house, who has been arrested for selling arms illegally. So not much integrity there then!

 

His axe to grind seems to be that by making deacts even more deactivated he could sell real guns at a higher price. I hope he rots in jail for years.

 

This will not stop a single illegal gun from being used and will only harm collectors, historians and museums.

Edited 1 April , 2017 by Gunner Bailey

[healdav]

20 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I suspect the French government asked for this as they clearly did not understand that the Charlie Hebdo 'deacts' were not deacts for the normal market, but the film industry.

 

Actually the 'bloke who got the job' for the EU was the man in charge of the Liege Proof house, who has been arrested for selling arms illegally. So not much integrity there then!

 

His axe to grind seems to be that by making deacts even more deactivated he could sell real guns at a higher price. I hope he rots in jail for years.

 

This will not stop a single illegal gun from being used and will only harm collectors, historians and museums.

You may well be right, but all the governments and their hordes of advisers had a chance to rewrite and/or block what you don't like. It was not just put into law by someone in the Commission on a casual whim (although that is what everyone seems to think).

Edited 2 April , 2017 by healdav

[MikeyH]

Did anyone see the 'Antiques Roadshow' episode yesterday?

A very nice Vickers .303 WW1 machine gun was featured, which the

owner had purchased for £1000.  The 'expert' valued it as worthless,

and opined that you would not be able to give it away at present.

Surely it could be brought in line with the new deactivation regs.

Though it would be a shame to further mutilate such a good example.

I would think the present value would be around three thousand pounds.

Any comments?

 

Mike.

 

Edited 10 June , 2019 by MikeyH

[elliot#1]

17 minutes ago, MikeyH said:

Did anyone see the 'Antiques Roadshow' episode yesterday?

A very nice Vickers .303 WW1 machine gun was featured, which the

owner had purchased for £1000.  The 'expert' valued it as worthless,

and opined that you would not be able to give it away at present.

Surely it could be brought in line with the new deactivation regs.

Though it would be a shame to further mutilate such a good example.

I would think the present value would be around three thousand pounds.

Any comments?

 

Mike.

 

 

It does seem a shame that it was presented with such a slant against deactivated weapons. As mentioned, the owner could have it re-deactivated to current spec and then sold, which they failed to mention on the show. Likewise, even the tripod on it's own has a decent value. 

I would think the value would be nearer £5000 for a WW1 example such as this. That was certainly the going rate just before the change of law. 

 

Best,

 

Elliot

[Steven Broomfield]

I suspect the word 'expert' in Post 282 is the clue: 'expert' in what, exactly, given that he's on the Antiques Roadshow?

[depaor01]

18 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

I suspect the word 'expert' in Post 282 is the clue: 'expert' in what, exactly, given that he's on the Antiques Roadshow?

 

He looks like an expert to me... Robert Tilney. Master Gunsmith and a Law Society Expert Witness on Firearms and Ballistics:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/tkMZxdchLjMwN67TGXygms/robert-tilney

 

Dave

[MikeyH]

Have just returned from a chum's, he has both a .303 Vickers and a Maxim, both de-acts.  He did not

see the programme, but was suitably incensed.

 

Mike.

[Dave66]

has anybody handled/seen a current spec deactivated vickers, if so, what would the value be in today's market?

[Gunner Bailey]

1 hour ago, MikeyH said:

Have just returned from a chum's, he has both a .303 Vickers and a Maxim, both de-acts.  He did not

see the programme, but was suitably incensed.

 

Mike.

Why? Tilney was correct.

 

If you can't legally sell it, swap it, give it as a gift then it has no value, except your appreciation of it. OK act illegally and then wait for someone to hear about it. At Detling last year the police threatened a trader with prosecution as he had an 'old spec' PIAT for sale on his stall. The trader immediately removed it. Do you feel lucky?

[Steven Broomfield]

2 hours ago, depaor01 said:

 

He looks like an expert to me... Robert Tilney. Master Gunsmith and a Law Society Expert Witness on Firearms and Ballistics:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/profiles/tkMZxdchLjMwN67TGXygms/robert-tilney

 

Dave

 

OK: I'll give him that.

 

Can anyone, then, explain: can the weapon be even more de-actiavted or not?

[Michael Haselgrove]

15 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

OK: I'll give him that.

 

Can anyone, then, explain: can the weapon be even more de-actiavted or not?

Steven,

Hopefully, this website will answer your question:

 https://www.militaria-history.co.uk/articles/new-deactivation-law-comes-into-force/

Regards,

Michael.

[Steven Broomfield]

Ta. I shall peruse it later.

[Toby Brayley]

To be honest It was a tough one for the expert. Technically he was 100% correct, in its current state it is worthless, it is illegal to sell it or pass it on. It would have been rather naughty, to say the least, had he have not picked up on that.  Of course it still has value, if he were to spend just a couple of hundred pounds getting a current spec cert it would probably be nearer

5-6K+ 

 

As mentioned previously it would have been nice to have heard the other side of the coin. 

 

I feel the owners pain, I have a large collection that is now technically worthless! Thankfully I have no intention of selling or passing them on. Certain de-acts would be worth a new certification others would not.

 

Regards

Toby 

[Medaler]

With it being illegal to either sell or give these things away, what happens to them when their owners die? Collected, confiscated and destroyed by the police? They will have to go somewhere.

[Grovetown]

27 minutes ago, Medaler said:

With it being illegal to either sell or give these things away, what happens to them when their owners die? Collected, confiscated and destroyed by the police? They will have to go somewhere.

 

I gifted mine, individually, by letter to my son at Christmas 2015, so they'll get another 50-60 years life intact (unless there is another pointless law change that, say, bans ownership outright).

 

And in 50-60 years' time, it's quite possible that the state of deactivation or otherwise of a 160-year-old SMLE will be the least of anyone's concerns.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Toby Brayley]

56 minutes ago, Medaler said:

With it being illegal to either sell or give these things away, what happens to them when their owners die? Collected, confiscated and destroyed by the police? They will have to go somewhere.

 

 

Dealers, Police (usually for destruction now sadly) or Museums! 

 

Its an interesting point, one that will need be addressed, as before they could just be passed around. 

Edited 11 June , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[MikeyH]

18 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

OK: I'll give him that.

 

Can anyone, then, explain: can the weapon be even more de-actiavted or not?

 

Steven,

 

Essentialy, at present you can cycle the action, pull the trigger and hear a satisfying 'click'.  The

new regulations require all moving parts to be welded up solid, so just a lump of wood and metal.

They will have the same exterior appearance, but will lose that last element of any original functionality.

As others have said you are not allowed to sell or even gift old type de-acts, without further

work being carried out.

 

Mike.

 

[peregrinvs]

Rumour has it that various dealers will discretely buy old spec deacts with a view to re-deactivating them and selling them on. It’s the seller that commits the offence, not the buyer. I suspect it’s a circumstance that wouldn’t interest the CPS a great deal as it’s - sort of - within the spirit of the law, if not the exact letter.

 

Does anyone know of any actual cases being brought under the new law? For the vast majority of existing deacts the description ‘defectively deactivated’ would be an error of physical fact. It would be both absurd and unjust if someone was sent to prison because they’d sold an irreversibly deactivated gun because it had been irreversibly deactivated in the wrong irreversible way.

[stripeyman]

I have had dealings with de-ac weapons, there are ways round this insidious law. It is in effect unpoliceable.... If there is such a word.

[Gunner Bailey]

On 11/06/2019 at 13:19, Toby Brayley said:

I feel the owners pain, I have a large collection that is now technically worthless! Thankfully I have no intention of selling or passing them on. Certain de-acts would be worth a new certification others would not.

 

Regards

Toby 

 

It is painful for some. A couple of years ago at Detling I was talking to a man who said he had about 340 deacts and had built an extension on his house to display them. OUCH!

 

I'm sure he still enjoys them though.

[T8HANTS]

Should be grounds for a law suit here, the weapons were deactivated to Home Office specification after apparently forensic testing as to the practicality of reactivation.

Now we are told that these weapons were defectively deactivated, so it is the Home Office at fault not the owner, who could only go by the regulations as given from on high.

Forgetting the fact these are ex-weapons, if you buy a washing machine in good faith having been assured that it will wash all, only to be told several years later it can't, you would feel cause for redress, I see no difference.  The Home Office assured me my ex weapon was deactivated, now they say despite being done to their spec it is not.  I believe that all deact owners affected should go for a class action against the Goverment.