German cemeteries in France

[egbert]

14 hours ago, AliceF said:

Comines_2b.pdf

Comines_3.pdf

Here is a visual to the "Comines_2b file with directions to said cemetery. My picture from 1914:

 

[PascalMallet]

22 hours ago, AliceF said:

Pascal,

 

I read your text with great interest. It was a sad story - the move of bodies from Comines to St. Laurent - how it was done. For a relative this must be very upsetting.

I'll post the text from VDK in four posts - each about 250kb. I typed off the first two entries, because readability was bad, but as PDF it is no help for you so therefore here:

 

1925, 4-5

"Comines. Deutscher Friedhof. Der eine Pfeiler des auf vier Pfeilern ruhenden Friedhofsdenkmals ist zerschossen. Das Denkmal senkt sich deshalb an der schadhaften Stelle. Es soll aus Ziegensteinen und Zement bestehen. Die Möglichkeit der Wiederinstandsetzung wird von den Franzosen bezweifelt. Irgendetwas muss geschehen."

1926,2

"Comines (Nord). Der Friedhof in franz. Comines, der durch ein zerschossenes Tor zwischen Backsteinpfeilern von der Straße aus betreten wird, beherbergt 2631 Leichen in Einzelgräbern und 1334 Unbekannte in einem Ossuaire. Von einem breiten, von Taxushecken eingeschlossenen Mittelweg erblickt man im ersten Drittel an der westlichen und östlichen Einfriedung je ein Regimentsdenkmal. Weiterschreitend gewahrt man an einem größeren freien Platz zur Rechten eine zerschossene Kapelle und zur Linken ein ebenfalls durch Geschosse schwer beschädigtes, wuchtiges Ehrendenkmal. Wegen der Instandsetzung schweben Verhandlungen. Im Übrigen gewährt der gut erhaltene Friedhof mit seinen prachtvollen Strauch- und Baumgruppen ein stimmungsvolles Bild eines deutschen Gottesackers."

 

Christine

 

Comines_1.pdf

The next. C.

Comines_2a.pdf

Thank you very much Christine. I will translet that within few days. Today was our first sunny Sunday for weeks and we have been out. Same tomorrow.

 

Yes it upsets me when I read how those people were treated, and by French. I feel little ashamed. Problem now is that there is still some silence about that. I checked on VDK website and only my grand-father's file has been changed, probably because I had contact with them.

 

The Comines German monument is still in the middle of the cemetery. I attach a picture I took in 2014. For other details, I will now reply to Egbert.

 

Have good time.

 

Pascal

 

 

 

[PascalMallet]

8 hours ago, egbert said:

Here is a visual to the "Comines_2b file with directions to said cemetery. My picture from 1914:

 

Thank you very much Egbert for this picture. Could you send it with only cemetery and better resolution?

 

I put some tags and send it back:

A = civilian cemetery where Germans first buried their deads (and some POW)

B = land they bought to extand (their monument was built there) and was only for military purpose

In 1922, military graves were moved from A to B. In 1950's all bodies have been removed from B to be stored nearby, then moved to St-Laurent-Blangy. A+B are today Comines civilian cemetery.

C = church

D = town hall and belfroy, they have been rebuilt in E

 

I also attach a picture taken from a movie dated 1917 after Comines was destroyed. Full movie (about 30s) can be seen at: https://vimeo.com/57122488

 

Pascal

 

[egbert]

Cemetery detail

 

[egbert]

Comines cemetery 1914 German graves. My picture, my copyright.

 

 

[PascalMallet]

Thank you very much, Egbert.for those two pictures.

 

[johntanner]

Here's one I found while on holiday this year. PoWs buried in and alongside the Communal Cemetery at Treguier:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8wwns0xbsuhbrh3/AACd4oghLS7RmUQn2HXCMCPea?dl=0

 

John

[AliceF]

Egbert, thanks for the photo and the other cemetery details on Comines!

John, thank you for your info on Treguier! This makes made me aware of something that I have not looked at all: German burials in French cemeteries – if this is the case here?! I would very much like to know more about this. How could I search? Is there a similar database as the CWGC?

I tried to make an overview of German cemeteries and German burials in British cemeteries in France, but this part is missing. The VDK homepage has not any information on Treguier at least not here for example: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=363a5b4e6905ce5ace12bb8492dedd51&cHash=2653aa68a739733e9045ef325ea485e6

Christine

[johntanner]

Christine

 

It's the only example I've seen of burials in a French Communal Cemetery in 35+ years.  The first burials date from 1915 are in the single row of graves within the communal cemetery.  These graves appear to have been reused with a second burial in each in 1918/19.  In between the German plot, which is at a lower level and behind the Communal Cemetery, accessed via very steep steps, appears to have ben created and used. Treguier has a VDK plaque on the wall by the main gate and another on the wall facing the original row of graves.

 

John

[healdav]

There are lots of French municipal cemeteries with German graves. For example, at Montmedy not only are there Germans buried in the town cemetery, but they are buried in a mass grave with French, and there is a German cemetery on the other side of the town.

[AOK4]

And remember the Alsacians. After the war, the relatives that accepted French nationality were given the opportunity to have their fallen either repatriated or buried on a French cemetery of their choice (the same choice was given to all French). There's quite a few Alsacians who died in the German army that are buried under a French cross "mort pour la patrie".

 

Jan

[AliceF]

Well, I see, thanks for your answers.

The CWGC database allowed me to search for German burials in British cemeteries (as long as the soldiers were identified). Additionally I accidently found a list in the VDK member journal on German burials in British cemeteries. This way I could find out that there were ca. 7000 German soldiers buried in British cemeteries in France (which is about 1% of German WW1 burials in German cemeteries in France).

Would there be any possibility to search systematically in a French database for German WW1 burials in France as it is in the CWGC database?

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

On 7/16/2016 at 11:53, PascalMallet said:

 

I am not sure we should continue to speak in that topic as it is Christine's and dedicated to German cemeteries.

Maybe it would be better that you send me a private message. But you are more experienced than me, so do the best.

Pascal

 

I only just found these new notes relating to the story of Ernest Chaumeny.  I do not know if you have seen these documents held by the Red Cross. If not you will find them with other soldier names.

 

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1800945/6/2/

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1800945/1901/20089/

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search#/6/2/192/1800945/French or Belgian/Military/Chaumény

 

 

 

[Dragon]

In Munster (Alsace) le Cimetière Militaire Mixte is within the boundary of, at the back of, le Cimetière Communal. It includes French, Germans, a Chinese mine clearer (1920), Canadians (RCAF, 7 January 1945); Christian, Jewish and Muslim men; a WW1 Bavarian lion peppered with gunshot from Operation Cheerful, February 1945not far from Resistance fighters... It is truly mixed.

 

Gwyn

[PascalMallet]

10 hours ago, AliceF said:

Well, I see, thanks for your answers.

The CWGC database allowed me to search for German burials in British cemeteries (as long as the soldiers were identified). Additionally I accidently found a list in the VDK member journal on German burials in British cemeteries. This way I could find out that there were ca. 7000 German soldiers buried in British cemeteries in France (which is about 1% of German WW1 burials in German cemeteries in France).

Would there be any possibility to search systematically in a French database for German WW1 burials in France as it is in the CWGC database?

Christine

Hej Christine,

 

About German soldiers buried in French civil cemeteries, I have asked to the contact I got for my grand-father who's buried in a German cemetery (someone of VDK in France), but I don't expect much. I will tell you what I got.

 

I have turned into German the PDF files you have sent me. Here they are:

1927, 2: Comines (Nord), 3 km südwestlich Wervicq: In langen Reihenbeeten ruhen 2631 namentlich Bekannte und einem Sammelgrabe 1334 einzeln nicht mehr feststellbare deutsche Soldaten. Der Friedhof macht einen sehr sauberen und gepflegten Eindruck, und die reiche Bepflanzung mit Bäumen, Sträuchern und Taxushecken gibt ein stimmungsvolles Bild. Kränze zum Preise von 10 R.M. an können niedergelegt werden. Lichtbilder von Einzelgräbern zum Preise von 7.50 R.M. für das halbe Dutzend und drei Teilansichten des Friedhofes zum Preise von je 1 R.M. können bestellt werden.

1928, 9: Comines (Nord), 3 km südwestlich Wervicq. Nicht weit von der wieder neu aufgebauten Kirche, links vom Gemeindefriedhof, liegt innerhalb der Ortschaft der deutsche Militärfriedhof. Dieser umfasst 2292 Einzelgräber und 22 Sammelgräber mit 1334 Toten, die fast alle bayrischen Regimentern angehörten. Eine 2,80 m hohe Backsteinmauer umgibt den Friedhof, der im Inneren von hohen Pappeln eingefasst ist. Zum Eingang, einem guten Eisentor zwischen gemauerten Pfeilern, führt eine breite Treppe aus Sandstein. Die Gräber, Wege, Bäume und die hohen Hecken find gut gepflegt. In der Mitte des Friedhofes befindet sich in einem Pappelhain ein großes Ehrendenkmal, ferner sind zwei kleinere Steindenkmäler vom R.J.R. 212 und vom J.R. 210 vorhanden. Die Grabzeichen sollen ? von der französischen Behörde erneuert werden.

1928, 9 (part of a travel report): Von Wervick nach dem Friedhof von Comines geht man eine gute halbe Stunde, biegt im Ort Comines nach links ab, geht auf der Brücke über die Lys über französische-belgische Grenze, lässt die große, neue Kirche von Comines links liegen und gelangt auf der ersten Straße links nach etwa 100 Meter an den Friedhof von Französ.-Comines. – Auch hier gaben dir Leute überall freundlich Auskunft. Der Friedhof ist sehr hübsch instandgesetzt, bis auf einen kleinen Teil, an dem noch gearbeitet wird. Die Einzelgräber sind gruppenweise zusammengefasst, mit grünen Hecken umgehen. Die Gruppen sind um eine in der Mitte des Friedhofes liegende Kapelle geordnet, in der ein Marmorsarkophag steht, der an der Stirnseite die Inschrift trägt: „Niemand hat größere Liebe, denn die, dass er sein Leben lässet für seine Freunde.“ – Der Friedhof ist bereits sehr schön mit schnell wachsenden Bäumen bestanden. Das Schmücken des Gräber mit kleinen Zierpflanzen ist erlaubt, soweit nicht dadurch das Allgemeinbild gestört wird. Die auf dem Friedhof stehenden alten Kreuze sind ausnahmslos sehr ausbesserungsbedürftig.

Nach Rückkehr über dir Grenze fuhren wir vom Marktplatz von Belgisch-Comines mit dem Verkehrsauto nach Wervick und gingen von dort zu Fuß rechts der Bahn in etwa einer Stunde nach Menin, um noch einen Eindruck von der Kampfgegend zu bekommen. Wir haben aber auch hier nicht mehr Spuren des Krieges entdeckt als auf dem Weg von Wervick nach Comines und hörten von den Einwohnern, dass es überall in der Gegend gleich aussähe. – Von Menin fuhren wir mit dem Verkehrsauto bis zum Bahnhof Courtrai und von dort aus am Abend nach Brüssel, von wo wir am anderen Tage die Heimreise antraten. Die Gesamtkosten der Reise betrugen ohne die Passgebühren 60 RM für die Person.      Dr. H. K., Herchen a. d. Sieg.

I translated the texts into French with Google. The result was awful but with some German I know, I undestood what it was about. Thanks again.

Pascal

 

[PascalMallet]

7 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said:

 

I only just found these new notes relating to the story of Ernest Chaumeny.  I do not know if you have seen these documents held by the Red Cross. If not you will find them with other soldier names.

 

Thank you Martin for what you sent. I already got those files and they were very useful to find other French soldiers who have been POW in Comines. Some (about 20) died there, were buried in Comines cemetery, then now rest in St-Laurent-Blangy with my grand-father. Others (most of them), though hardly wounded, were healed and finished the war as POW.

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings Pascal.

 

No problem - always better to get too much information than too little.

As more and more documents come on line we will find more history.

 

[pandect]

Hello

I have been lurking in this forum for a long time but have neglected my research for too long.

My personal interest in WW1 stems from the fact that my father, his father and an uncle served in the British army in France throughout WW1 and lived to tell the tale. Many of my mother's family, including the man she thought for years was her father were killed on the Western Front; one of her uncles died of wounds but is commemorated on the Menin Gate memorial; not only did they lose his body but his name is mis-spelled on the memorial. Writing that makes me realise that I really should give some thought to those different experiences.

 

However, I'm actually writing to say that, although English, my wife and I now live in South West France. In our nearest town, Mont de Marsan, there is a WW1 German military cemetery. This is a forest area, about 1200kms from the Western Front and as far as I can establish there were many German POW's brought here to work in the forests - some of the guards were US Army personnel. I must check my notes but as far as I recall the first recorded death in the cemetery was in 1914 and the last in November 1919. The cemetery is well kept/maintained and vandalism free!

 

Going public like this will give me the impetus to do what I have planned for too long and make a photographic record of the gravestones and compile a database of the names and other details. Is there information about the Mont de Marsan cemetery in the German archives that I have noticed referred to here?

David

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings David,

Sounds like a great idea, perhaps you could drop a few examples on this thread and then start a new thread of your own dedicated to The Mont De Marsan Cemetery site.

The only reason I landed on this forum was during family history research. Happily someone had input details for me to find.

 

I just did a general search for your WW1 site and found very little.

 

Martin

[PascalMallet]

Here I attach two picture of Wervicq-Sud German cemetery in France as well as a list of Comines cemetery 121 massgraves. Most of soldiers (including 19 French and 1 English) were known (you can see that some massgraves contained only 3 of 4 men), but they can't be separated when they moved to St-Laurent-Blangy cemetery.

 

 

[PascalMallet]

[PascalMallet]

Here is a moving picture I took when I was looking for my grand-father in French ambulances records. Those records are available at National Archives in Paris. Sometimes records are with small pieces of paper which were stapled to the coat with a needle, and sometimes with blood stains. Really moving experience! Here is a translation:

 

Nov. 17th, 1914, 11:00am, being in La Chapelle près Ouderdon (Belgium).

Death record of a German whose name can't be known. The state in which this wounded man was when he arrived at the ambulance didn't allow him to provide any information that could shed light on his identity. This man was only wearing a coat on which absolutely no indication appeared and from which we could only detach a piece of lining covering the following: Gro Enspar B.A.II R14.

Reporting of the deceased: blond hair and eyebrows, gray eyes, open forehead, medium nose, medium mouth, round chin, oval face, 1m645 tall*, distinctive markings: tattoo on the right forearm showing two Arab women. Died in La Chapelle près Ouderdon (Belgium), on Nov. 17th, 2014, 11:00am, of a fractured skull and a right thigh injury which occurred on the battlefield.

 

Son of: father and mother whose names are not known.

 

* French army used millimeters...

[AliceF]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎25 at 13:15, Dragon said:

In Munster (Alsace) le Cimetière Militaire Mixte is within the boundary of, at the back of, le Cimetière Communal. It includes French, Germans, a Chinese mine clearer (1920), Canadians (RCAF, 7 January 1945); Christian, Jewish and Muslim men; a WW1 Bavarian lion peppered with gunshot from Operation Cheerful, February 1945not far from Resistance fighters... It is truly mixed.

 

Gwyn

 

Gwyn, I would really like to visit these cemeteries in Alsace!

 

 

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎25 at 12:15, Martin Feledziak said:

I only just found these new notes relating to the story of Ernest Chaumeny.  I do not know if you have seen these documents held by the Red Cross. If not you will find them with other soldier names.

 

Martin, thanks for the Red cross files, the ones you posted were new to me. Saw that the type of injury was given. Kopfschuss for Ernest Chaumeny - he died after 4 days.

 

16 hours ago, pandect said:

Is there information about the Mont de Marsan cemetery in the German archives that I have noticed referred to here?

 

David, I´ll check.

 

Pascal, first thanks for transcribing the PDF files. Now it is possible for those who are interested to copy to google translate.

It is really a moving record you posted. I did not know that the description of soldiers was done so carefully (at least in this case). Maybe there can be found out more.

Are you considering to start a topic on "Enspar Gro" (under soldiers)? I have no idea, what this could be, but sometimes more can be identified. B.A. II R 14. Could that not be a regiment? I am just guessing here: Bavarian? IR 14????

 

Christine

 

[PascalMallet]

Hej Christine,

 

All records I read in Paris were about the same. They told as much as they can about the dead man (and in good French, with long and very correct sentences). Ambulances were not on the front line. Wounded were transported to ambulances by horse wagons (few motors). I guess it was the same for other armies. Death records were transcripted to city records few months (or years) later, but only with date and place of death, so this ambulance source is quite precious. I will post you more.

 

About text on the coat, I don't know about "Enspar Gro", but "B.A. II" probably means 2nd Bavarian Army (they wrote army number with roman digits and that army was fighting there) and "R 14" is probably "JR 14" (Germans used "J" for uppercase "I"). That poor guy was recorded as missing in his regiment and that record is the last thing to be told about him.

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

Here is another death record of (presumed) Pupier Jean. Arrived dead at the ambulance on May 31 7:30am, delivered without explanation by an motorized American car health ... Death record transcripted on Nov. 2nd, 1918 in his home town.