German cemeteries in France

[AliceF]

A map of the area. Christine

[AliceF]

And then the final question: could the drawing (graves Kayser and Mosqua) be really showing Quesnoy-sur-Doyle in February/March 1915?
Here is the location of Kaysers grave today (source billiongraves.com).

Photo: could this be the row were Kayser was buried? Find it still odd that the first graves (from 1914) were in the part that is located furthest away from the French cemetery and the town.

Source of the photo from Quesnoy: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,83717875,var,--QUESNOY---SUR---DEULE--,language,E.html

(Note the handwriting in the margin, which says “Auf Wiedersehen!” –See you again!)

Christine

[AOK4]

Christine,

Remember that the Germans concentrated field graves during the war and the French concentrated graves after the war. Both graves were field graves until some point, I would say.

Jan

[AliceF]

Thank you Jan! Well, I definitely agree that it looks like field graves on drawing #1. Quesnoy was established in November 1914 according to the VDK (Mosqua died 22.10.1914, which means a week earlier). I did not know that Germans were concentrating graves during the war. When I read that there were few concentrations made to Quesnoy (besides the 308 from Comines, done by the French after the war), I thought this was an indication that Kayser and Mosqua could have been buried directly in Quesnoy. The particular outer row contains quite a number of graves from 1914. The VDK states that many of the soldiers buried in Quesnoy died South of Ypern in October/November 1914. But as said I did not think of German concentration during the war.

Your explanation would make sense in explaining the photo (the card is written January 1916), with the graves in the outer row having crosses and no headstones (while many other graves at that time had), but with soldiers buried who died in 1914. Provided I got the location of the photo right: showing the Eastern edge. This would mean Max Kayser was moved to Quesnoy between November 1914 and January 1916. It would also explain the situation of the grave in the outer row.
Christine

[AliceF]

The cemetery of Quesnoy-sur-Deule is mentioned several times in the VDK member journal. Sometimes as being not well managed, other times as being in a very fine condition and described as a beautiful cemetery. Here one of the descriptions (from 1928, issue no. 9):

„Quesnoy-sur-Deule (Dep. Nord), 8,5 km northwest of Lille.
In this German military cemetery there rest 1669 German soldiers in 612 graves and in one common grave another 308 soldiers. The two long sides of the cemetery are bordered by tall poplars and the inner part planted with tall trees. The surrounding hedges are 1.40 m high, well cut and maintained. The two entrance gates have two stone pillars each, which are 2.30 m high. The double-leafed wooden doors at both ports are in poor condition, the wooden crosses on the graves are mostly rotten. In most graves there are two to five soldiers buried. On many graves trees of life are planted, which are all in a good condition and well shaped. Each grave is planted with a rose bush. Many hedges and trees decorate the cemetery. In the middle of the cemetery there is a small stone monument. Inside the cemetery there are several benches, which are surrounded on three sides by 1 m high hedges. At the far end - adjacent to the entrance to the left – there is the mass grave, which is kept clean but which is unplanted. There are only German burials in this cemetery which were made during the war by German troops. Reburials have not been made."

I am not so sure about the last sentences. The VDK states at their website that French authorities have reburied German soldiers here after the war. Amongst others 308 soldiers, who were buried in the mass grave. These were reburied from Comines and were all identified besides of one.

Photo of the mass grave: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Quesnoy-sur-De%C3%BBle_-_Deutscher_Soldatenfriedhof_Quesnoy-sur-De%C3%BBle_4.jpg

Photos of the cemetery: http://oliv62photographie.zenfolio.com/p877559584

Christine

Source of the card:
http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,359475745,var,quesnoy-sur-deule-n-596857,language,E.html

Quesnoy_German_1.docx

[AliceF]

Another old photo from Quesnoy

Christine

Source:http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,148387096,var,Quesnoy-sur-Deule-Nordfrankreich-Heldenhain-der-40-Inf-Division,language,E.html

[dickaren]

Thanks for the updates Christine.

Richard

[AliceF]

Graves with the remains of 4 to 6 soldiers buried together seem to be more common in Quesnoy than in other German cemeteries.

The information below could be read in the member journal from 1926 (issue 3):

“Quesnoy -sur- Deule ( Dep . North). Our contact man [in Quesnoy] always has to walk from Wambrechies to Quesnoy [one way about 5.5km], to be able to accomplish the wishes of the relatives. Therefore he asks us not only to give the name of the soldier in question and the correct grave number - when ordering, but also the names of all the other soldiers in the same grave. In this cemetery usually 4-6 man rest side by side in a grave that has a cross with the names of all who are buried in that common grave. The names on the crosses are often very illegible. If all the names of the same cross are given to the contact man, there is a greater possibility to locate the right cross and grave. This is because of the fact that of several names surely one or the other is always better legible. – Otherwise it was reported that all graves are in good condition."

Christine

Quesnoy_German_2.docx

[Martin Feledziak]

Like your map in post 301, top of this page, here is some background information from 1914. I am reading from Andy and Jurgen's book too.

The Saxon regiments IR104 and IR181 are active at this very location early war.

They were part of 40 Infanterie Regiment which I now see fits with the large white memorial in the photo above

I am also reading with companion documents from 1st Batt North Staffs Regiment, they were slightly below at Rue De Bois.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=230091&hl=

[AliceF]

Martin, thank you very much for your map and explainations.

This is the type of information I am often lacking (which regiments of both sides were at which location).

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Christine,

Perhaps a difficult question,

Do you know if the 24th Infanterie Division, which includes IR 107 IR 139 and IR179, were using Quesnoy -sur- Deule, to bury their dead.

They were active just below around WEZ-MARQUART.

I am intrigued by the German Officer and Staffordshire soldier sword story and wondered if it is possible to put a name to the owner of that sword.

coincidentally the German officer and 14 of his men were killed on the same day as Karl Mosqua but obviously miles apart.

Martin

[AliceF]

Hi Martin,
I see what I can find.
Here is a map of existing German cemeteries in France:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zc9s8wa-PcmA.kJMLNvo-SeqQ&hl=en_US.

This shows that there are a couple of other cemeteries nearby. For example Lambersart, Verlinghem and Wambrechies. The latter two were opened first in 1916, so these cannot be first burial places in your case. Lambersart was opened in 1920 and here French authorities reburied many soldiers also many of those who died in 1914 in the area west of Lille (according to the VDK webpage).

Unfortunately I have no access to a list of buried soldiers for Quesnoy and on the head stones I cannot read the regimental units (headstone images are available here: https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/Quesnoy-sur-De%C3%BBle-Deutscher-SoldatenFriedhof/279571#).

Here http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/covers_vl/vl_wk1_index.htmI do not find any of your mentioned units, sometimes cemeteries are mentioned there.
I’ll check if I can find more about Lambersart first.

I assume you do not have any other name to check.(But I see the reason you ask is that you are actually searching for a name).
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Many Thanks for those links.

I know that it is a difficult task.

Private Nuttall was the name of the Staffordshire soldier killed by the Saxon Officer with the sword. Nuttall killed the Officer with his bayonet at the same time.

Nuttall was buried close to where he died in Rue De Bois but sadly the grave was lost.

The sword hangs on the wall of the Staffordshire Regiment museum.

A number of the 1st North Staffs are buried at Desplanque Farm Cemetery following fighting in October 1914

[AliceF]

Martin,
I do not find Wez Marcquat in the VDK member journal. What I find is the information on the VDK website on Lambersart that I mentioned before. I could also read that here are many soldiers from Sachsen buried, which I understand the regiments you named come from.
Reburials to Lambersart have been carried out from: Armentières, Deulemont, Ennetières, Frèlinghien, Gondecourt, Lambersart - fieldgraves, Lesquin, Lomme, Lompret, Marquette, Mouveaux, Phalmpin, Premesques, Ronchin, Roubaix, St. Andre, Verlinghem. (VDK member journal 1928,5).
I’ll check more tonight.
Christine

Edited 9 April , 2016 by AliceF

[AliceF]

Hi Martin,
had a look at this again. There was a German cemetery in Lomme, which was moved to Lambersart after the war. In Lomme 1000 Germans were buried. So that could be one of several options. I tried to check the Verlustenliste for what you are searching. For two regiments the lists are now updated with information of the regimental unit for the time you are searching. This would allow you to search the units at that time and places, which would fit. But I assume there are many possible persons. This would work for 8. Infanterieregiment 107 and 11. Infanterieregiment 139.
The 14. Infanterieregiment 179 is not updated to the time you are searching for (or I do not find it, a strange gap between nov. 1914 and nov. 1915, but I think it is just not yet done).

I tried to trace the burial places for quite a number of fallen, but was not very successful. Here some examples:
On the list from the 11.11.1914:
Paul Morgenstern IR 139 died 20.10. http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/683771
Buried in Wambrechies http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=feb32e252b9659b6e917f12cc96f77a3&cHash=ab35f9801976517dccc16b136f7eaba3
Albert Zocher IR 139 http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/706236
Buried in Lambersart
http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=0ea4b44df5a60c4ceba39a9e8bc10c12&cHash=0854616d626f170007236613f1c3569b
Walter Schulz
Buried in Lambersart
http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=3721f22c31d470fa912d6b15f2dd569f&cHash=7c834c6da47dc149802c9aff50f26e1b

There were quite a number of officers on the list, which I could not trace in the VDK database, which means there have not a known grave.
Good luck!
Christine

P.S. I attach a map with place names from which concentration was made to Lambersart (yellow), the lila markers indicate reburials to Illies.

[AliceF]

Here a photo from the German cemetery in Lambersart showing a headstone and a cross for the same person – Adam Richter.
Christine

Source of the photo: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lambersart_-_Deutscher_Soldatenfriedhof_Lambersart_5.jpg

[Martin Feledziak]

Wow,

You have been busy with some great research.
whilst I have enjoyed an afternoon in the pub.

But I shall study all this material in the morning.

What a superb memorial for Adam, he must have been well respected amongst his fellows.

If I was to make a guess I feel that the saxon officer was from IR179, but as always we must keep an open mind.

Martin

[Martin Feledziak]

The below is a graphic from the book "Fighting the Kaisers War"

https://books.google...ct 1914&f=false

it shows the situation at Christmas time December 1914.

The North Staffs, part of the 6th Division 17th Brigade, opposing the Saxon 24th Infantry Division Regiments 107 179 and 139.

interestingly, At Rue De Bois, Captain R J ARMES of the 1st North Staffs met Ltn Horst Von GEHE of IR107 on Christmas Eve and agreed a burial truce until Boxing Day along the entire Regimental Front.

The truce lasted quite a time longer into January 1915.

[AliceF]

Thanks for the map, Martin. I now finally can find La Hongrie. I read about the incident, you are interested in, here: http://www.uttoxeteradvertiser.co.uk/Story-Uttoxeter-soldier-James-Nuttall-killed/story-22730571-detail/story.html. I checked once more for the Verlustenliste and the number of entries searchable for the IR 179 has increased comprising now the dates you are interested in. But I guess it is difficult to identify the men you are looking for there.

Christine

[AliceF]

And here some views of the cemetery in Lomme (on the map above in the lower right corner), where about 1000 German soldiers were buried. It was moved to Lambersart in the beginning of the 1920ies.

Christine

Source of the cards

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,235483452,var,59-2272-LOMME-Cimetiere,language,E.html

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,227083777,var,59-2208-LOMME-Enterrement-Cimetiere,language,E.html

Source: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,0263040820,language,G.html

[Martin Feledziak]

Hi Christine.

Yes that is the incident exactly
The sword is on display at the Staffordshire Regiment Museum. I have not visited but they did send me a picture, sadly they told me not to reproduce the image.
But I can tell you it is manufactured by Eisenhauer and features the shark skin like grip and lions head with red eyes. It has the saxon coat of arms on the blade.
There are examples of this sword on the internet so it is not a unique family item.

IR179 stormed Premesques catching 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment on 20th October this is right next to Lomme.

The below is from the 1st North Staffs Batalion history kindly supplied by Woolamc.

"During the night of October 20^th the loss of LA VALLEE and ENNETIERES by the 18^th Brigade caused the withdrawal of the 17^th Brigade to the line RUE DU BOIS-PORT EGAL FERME-L’EPINETTE. This line was occupied without interference by daybreak on October 21^st, the 1^st North Stafford Regiment being astride the Armentieres-Lille Road on a double frontage included that allotted to the 2^nd Leinster regiment, who were re-organising, with the 3^rd Rifle Brigade on its immediate left and the 1^st Royal Fusiliers beyond L’EPINETTE. The enemy followed cautiously but eventually brought up a filed gun near WEZ-MARQUART, which knocked out two machine-guns under Lieut Hobart, who had placed them in a good position near a cross roads, whence they could fire right down the main road to WEZ-MARQUART.

At 10.30 pm the enemy made a concerted attack on the 3^rd Rifle Brigade and the left of the 1^st North Staffords, and a few of them succeeded in breaking through. The line, however, was held intact and B Company, under captain G E Leman, did good work in helping to repel the enemy, who left behind the bodies of one Officer and several other ranks, and some wounded prisoners. The German Officer’s sword is preserved as a trophy in the 1^st Battalion’s Officers’ Mess"

the below is an example of a massive page from IR179 in the verlustlisten. It lists a good many soldiers killed in fighting around the time. I have picked out some of the officer types.
I suspect the task is far too difficult to put a name to the sword.

If I was to guess I would consider Walter Tenzler, 2 Komp, from Freiberg a good possible, there are many others on the same page. The report also covers a number of days.

[AliceF]

Hi Martin,

Very interesting to read your post. Quite many details are given in the regimental history you had access to. Regarding the Verlustenliste: do you know which companies were the most likely ones to have been involved in the incident. You said the 179 is the most likely IR (out of the three you mentioned).
What I found strange is the fact that I found so few of the names on the list in the VDK base. But in your text I could read that dead were left behind, so I assume they were buried by the English troops. And as Nuttall’s grave was lost, this could easily have happened to the Germans as well, I guess.

For other units (IR 107, 139) more specific place names were given in the Verlustenliste as Rue de Bois, La Hongrie etc. Strange that for the 179 Lille is given as only location.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

You could be exactly right, my understanding is that in these early phases of the war they were not restricted just by battle in trenches they were fighting a war of movement too.

I expect that many soldiers were lost in battle and were sadly left in the place where they fell, so yes the 14 Germans could have been buried in the same place and lost as the war moved on. Or just even left where they fell.

I worked my way through a good many of the early casualty reports and agree with you, The reports for IR 179 contain less detail than the other Saxon units.

We might just have to keep this particular event in our minds just for now.

I do not have any other clues at this time.

[Martin Feledziak]

There is a regimental history for 14 Infanterie regiment No179.

so there could be some clues available. These books are not available on the net and obviously I could not read the book even if I had it.

[AliceF]

Great! That would make things a lot easier to check wouldn't it?
Especially since it concerns quite a particular time frame.
Don't you want to put the case forward in the "soldier" forum?
If there is somebody with access to the IR 179-history, and could check it, that could give some important information.

Christine