German cemeteries in France

[AliceF]

Found another similar photo from Douvrin here:

http://feldpost.hypotheses.org/

August Jaspers was in Douvrin and further down on the webpage are more pictures from the place.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Amazing.

The above was taken in December 1915 and almost exactly the same place as the image in post 225.

The man appears to be standing very close to the original plot for Fritz Limbach.

[JWK]

In my opinion the above photo (of the Douvrin cemetery) was taken in summer 1916 at the earliest, there are leaves on the trees e.g., and the little plants seem to grow happily, and even spill over their boundary stones.

And the photo in post #225 I think has been taken later, with the white (grave?)stones added in front of the crosses, and no leaves on the trees. So maybe winter '16/17?

The original photo of Fritz's grave doesn't show those white stones, and we know that thát photo was taken in october/november 1915 (probably late october/early november, there are still some leaves on the tree)

IR 16 arrived at Auchy/Douvrin late March 1915, and left March 1916.

295 16'ers are now buried in Lens-Sallaumines, and the majority of them would have initially been buried here in Douvrin.

JW

[AliceF]

Martin, thank you for pointing this out, I actually hadn´t noticed that the views were that similar.

Regarding dating the photos:

Photo post 226: the source http://feldpost.hypotheses.org/says that the card was sent in December 1915 (from August Jaspers to his wife). Since there are leaves on the trees it would have to be before the winter of that year.

Photo post 225: I agree I would assume that the stones were put afterwards (no point to remove them). In the photo album of Nicolas Hiessler at http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/en/contributions/10130#prettyPhotoit is placed between April and July 1916 (but I do not know it the album keeps a strict chronlogical order).

What is interesting to notice is that August Jasper sent postcards with the same photos/cards to his family as there are in Nikolas Hiessler’s album, as for example the dead pilot.
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Yes,

I notated incorrectly, the photo was sent back to August's family in December 1915, not taken in December 1915.

however both photographs were made in the same spot.

About Fritz Limbach,

I will wager that Fritz would have been popular with the local community, if he had survived, and Like many of the young lads out there, most were not warmongers but lads caught up in war.

[JWK]

Christine,

ah right , didn't see that August's card was sent in December 1915.

Photo must then have been taken some time August/September 1915 (and the grave I *identified* as his is nót Fritz's grave, which must be further towards the back. "The Bavarians" were in Auchy/Douvrin from january 1915, so their dead probably occupied the front part)

And in hindsight: in summer 1916 the cemetery probably didn't look this spic-and-span, what with the Battle of Loos.

Fritz Limbach writes on 7th july 1915: “I’ve been to Karl’s [Karl Steigleder] grave yesterday. They’re working on the cemetery at the moment, laying new paths etc.”.

which must then be paths towards the back of the cemetery.

JW

[AliceF]

This would be a bit easier with a cemetery plan or a grave list ;-)
Wonder if they still exist for these cemeteries which have been removed in the 1920ies.

Anyway, I noticed that the cemetery as shown in the photo in post #225 is well kept and I realized the contrast to the devastation of Douvrin as shown in Nicolas album. Absurd with a town in ruins and a tidy cemetery – but you never know.

Is it known where the cemetery was located?
Christine

[JWK]

This is what I have:

same place as the present day cemetery ("Sugar factory" is where Fritz and his comrades were billeted)

And yes, the discrepancy between the pristinely kept cemetery ("Asterix & Obelix in Britain" springs to mind! "Centuries of careful maintenance made this lawn as it is today" before someone rampages across it in his chariot) and the village of Douvrin which was completely, totally, and utterly shot to bits by that time, is something I don't quite get either.

JW

[Martin Feledziak]

I am guessing that the two houses with gardens to the left of the communal cemetery occupy the area which was the military cemetery.

[AliceF]

Found an aerial photo from Douvrin 1915, but does not show much concerning the cemetery.

And I guess it has been posted in Fritz's thread before.

Christine

Source: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205022550

[JWK]

That aerial photograph was made on "1915-02-05" which I read as 5th Feb 1915 (or it could well be 2nd May 1915)

IR 16 came to Douvrin end of March, so if it's the first date (5th feb) then maybe there wasn't a cemetery yet, and the troops from Baden (Not Bavaria as I said earlier) had a cemetery somewhere else?

Anyway, from the Staatsbibliothek Berlin comes a book, issued in November 1916, with photos of the VII Armee Korps .

Propaganda for the home front ofcourse, showing happy soldiers going about their daily business, but then why also include photos of cemeteries, completely destroyed villages and churches, and a funeral?

and this cemetery probably didn't exist anymore in the 1920's: Canteleux, between Givenchy-les-la-Bassée and La Bassée (right behind the front line)

[CROONAERT]

I am guessing that the two houses with gardens to the left of the communal cemetery occupy the area which was the military cemetery.

Looking at these two German maps, it would appear that it was actually to the rear of the main cemetery (and now encompassed by the modern cemetery?)

Dave

[AliceF]

Always great with a good map! But if this is the place – how were the photos taken?
Here comes a fist suggestion, but I am not sure, and of course there are other possibilities.
Blue arrow is the direction in which the photos were taken, green arrow is the building (gable part) that can be seen.

But this would mean that the German part of the cemetery would not be the small Nothern part.
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Nice Map Dave,

I too like a good map. and not that it matters because the soldiers have all been moved, but it is still interesting trying to figure things out.

I like Christine's idea based on the assumption that the burials in the original civilian communal cemetery appear to be buried on a North, South alignment.

whereas the soldiers were aligned West to East.

But I still favor the theory that the original site was to the left and now there are two houses and long gardens on the old soldier plots.

The below image is from Google Street view.

[AliceF]

I see! You are probably right. Could the house to the very left be the one on the photos?

So this is your version see below?

Christine

Edited 8 March , 2016 by AliceF

[JWK]

On the photos in post 225 and 226 some crosses from the civil cemetery are visible (on the far right), so the military cemetery was next to it.

And on this photo, from the Regimental history of IR16, there's no churchtower on the horizon, so that must have been taken in a direction away from the church. (The churchtower wás damaged, but still had a considerable height, if I have to believe the photos of it)

Also, the shadows the pillars and the heap of (rubble?) cast suggest to me it's taken south-to-north -ish (from Rue Léopold Gleizes), probably late in the afternoon?

JW

[AliceF]

Yes, very convincing, also considering the location of the entrance (from a road).

Quite some details of Fritz's first burial place that could be found!

Christine

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi JW , Christine,

The issue I have with that theory is that if the communal cemetery is in the alignment you say then in the bottom photo it should be to the right ? but there is no sign of it.

Steve

[Martin Feledziak]

OK,

This is very much "Artist's Impression" based on not much fact and not very scientific because I can't quite get the right angle on street view,

but it does illustrate what I am thinking. ( as nicely drawn in Christine's post 240 )

But it could be completely wrong.

[AliceF]

Martin, what a photomontage!

Steve you are right, the communal cemetery cannot be seen on the second photo in post 241. It was more synthesizing things; I assumed it was on the other side of the hedge as this was shown on the photos in post 225 and 226. All photos are taken in the same direction.
But of course it would be nice to have assumptions to be confirmed.

Looking at Martins montage I had to think about the Boult sur Suippe case were soldiers and belongings were not transferred to the reburial cemetery. Good to know that it was probably much more carefully done here –as Fritz and the Soldier, who was buried here next to him, got individual graves next to each other in Lens.
Christine

[JWK]

That picture Martin posted seriously looks like a scene from "Nightmare on Elm Street"!

I've read a theory somewhere that the way you feel in a war-cemetery comes from whó you were in a previous life, i.e. at the time when the soldiers buried there were alive (Because they "see" you not as you are now, but as you were in their life-time).

If you were their enemy at the time the feeling is hostile. If you were their friend the feeling is warm.

And if you were "neutral" (Like being Dutch at the time) then it goes both ways I guess.....

Anyway, we now take you back to our original programming:

It's too bad some 95% of Douvrin was pulverised in the war, so we don't have any houses left to compare to those on the photographs.

What I dó see though on the pictures taken from outside the gate are the houses in the background, which *seem* (with todays "Map of Douvrin" in front of me) to front Rue Arthur Lamendin.

In October 2014 Douvrin staged an exhibition about "Douvrin in the First World War", which I missed completely. (Judging from the pictures it was véry interesting)

Maybe I should contact the organisers of that exhibition (in my best Québéqois French) to have the final word on where this bl*sted cemetery was!

And as far as I know áll burials at Douvrin were concentrated into Lens-Sallaumines. All burials of the "16'ers" that is, (You know: even the photo-book of 7th Army Corps, of which IR16 was a part, calls them "16'ers"). I can't vouch for the Pioneer Kompanies etc. though....

JW

[CROONAERT]

I've read a theory somewhere that the way you feel in a war-cemetery comes from whó you were in a previous life, i.e. at the time when the soldiers buried there were alive

If you were their enemy at the time the feeling is hostile. If you were their friend the feeling is warm.

Not too sure about that theory to be honest JW ... I feel the most comfortable in French AND German cemeteries (oh...and US ones too) and will always go out of my way to visit them if I'm roughly in the area (yet, possibly quite oddly for a Brit, I'm quite likely to just drive straight past a CWGC cemetery unless it's a very small out of the way one!)..... maybe I was an Alsacien in a past life!

Dave

[Martin Feledziak]

Agreed.

It does not matter where that cemetery was, but what does matter is that we do not forget what took place, so while we discuss these issues we are

respecting all of them.

Clearly the people of Douvrin have very well respected their history and what on an epic display they put on in 2014, well done to them.

[JWK]

Anyone ever been to Ysselsteyn German Cemetery in the Netherlands? (That's Ysselsteyn east of Eindhoven. Nót IJsselstein south of Utrecht! (pronounced exactly the same -in Dutch-, but oh so so different).

Almost exclusively WW2 though, but with some WW1 burials to the left of the entrance (mostly of bodies of German soldiers which floated down the Maas river into the province of Limburg....)

And véry much worth a visit if you find yourself in the neighbourhood!

When you enter you're smacked in the face by an ocean of grey crosses:

with a big monument in the middle, which you *think* marks the end of the cemetery.

But when you get there anóther ocean of grey crosses opens up before you....

And after that little detour:

The Germans súre knew how to build a cemetery in France;

the cemetery for their 7th Pionier-Batallion in Illies, Pas-de-Calais

JW

[Dragon]

CROONAERT, on 08 Mar 2016 - 9:31 PM, said:

Not too sure about that theory to be honest JW ... I feel the most comfortable in French AND German cemeteries ... and will always go out of my way to visit them if I'm roughly in the area (yet, possibly quite oddly for a Brit, I'm quite likely to just drive straight past a CWGC cemetery unless it's a very small out of the way one!)..... maybe I was an Alsacien in a past life!

Dave

Me too. I haven't visited a CWGC cemetery for ages, apart from taking photos for people when I'm in Alsace and those tend to be RAF casualties from the Second World War. I'm not sure how the theory stands up in places like Munster where there are French, German and British burials, as well as Chinese, Jewish, Canadian and Muslim. It's curious that I have hundreds of postcards of and documents about places in the Vosges and Alsace including lots of cemeteries, and none of any CWGC cemeteries. I suppose some of it comes down to self-differentiation: I couldn't contribute to any body of knowledge about the CWGC cemeteries because there are people who know them like the back of their hands.

Hm. If you were an Alsacien in a former life before 1919, would you class yourself as German or French? (Don't answer that! ) Maybe that explains why you're comfortable in both!

Gwyn