German cemeteries in France

[nigelcave]

A very interesting topic, with lots of fascinating information: many thanks for all your efforts.

[egbert]

I wonder if any of the mentioned sculptures, stone memorials etc survived after the dead from cemetery St. Mihiel had been relocated?

Again- thanx Christine for the wonderful and most interesting thread.

[AliceF]

Thanks for your comments!

Egbert, I assume that the headstones probably were re-used for other purposes. So from the St Mihiel cemetery, that was near town, I think, there is almost nothing left. But I attach a photo that I found on google Earth (photo by Maxwell Smart), which according to the photographer is taken at the location of the former German St Mihiel cemetery (near the town).

In the cemetery that is in the forest (and called St Mihiel now), there are old headstones left. I think I recognized some in the post #110 from Croonaert. I attach a photo from the current VDK website with old headstones. This cemetery had suffered from fighting.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

A photo from Servon-Melzicourt from VDK 1930 (3).

The two soldiers buried in the graves in the front are:

Karl Bonegel, Ersatz-Reservist, died 25.9.1915 and

Hermann Andreas, Unteroffizier, died 3.4.1916.

Christine

You knew this would spike my interest.

so Karl is in Block 4 Grave 137

and Herman is Block 4 138.

they are still together but I can't imagine how your photograph fits my plan.

[AliceF]

Martin, I thought this could be something that interests you. You have got a cemetery plan! I have never seen one for a German WW1 cemetery. The CWGC provides one for almost every cemetery I have looked after, but these here are not to be found on internet, I guess.
I have no idea how the photo from 1930 fits. What has changed is the number of crosses of course. In 1930, each of the individual graves had its own cross. Could the photo from 1930 been taken from West to East?
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Hi Christine.

I have plotted Albert and Ferdinand at block 3 in graves 757 and 758. You can see these graves on the plan above, in block 3 just by the mass grave section.

I would have expected to see Karl and Herman on the left by my pink X

[AliceF]

Very nice photo with the location, Martin! What a difference.

Today the first part (out of 3) of a travel description of two German soldiers of the IR 30, who traveled back to the Argonne, where there were during WW1.

“A journey to the Argonne (June 1926)

We drove with an automobile from Verdun Clermont-en-Arg., Les Islettes, La Harazéer to the Argonne Forest. Here the bare stumps of the trees, which have been shot to pieces, are still standing. The undergrowth has grown very densely up to a height of 3-4 m. First we followed a French narrow gauge railway that runs north of La Harazée in the valley of the Charmes-brook. From there we went to Rheinbabenhöhe without knowing where we were, because views were blocked by the high scrub. There was nothing to see of the old fortifications in the undergrowth. In the Franzental we came to the cemetery of the 2. Res-Ers.-Regt. The cemetery was empty. The transfer of the German dead must have taken place some time ago, since the whole cemetery was heavily overgrown with brambles. Only the fence made of planks was still well preserved. The inscription above the entrance was still readable: "Those who are killed in the holy battle, rest also in foreign soil in the fatherland" The stone monument with the inscription "2.Reserve-Ersatz Regiment" is still completely preserved.

We then came to the cemetery of the 2. Feld-Pi. - Komp. 16. Also here the fence is still in a good condition. The monument to Captain Lutz is still standing in the cemetery, all the other graves were reburied. Finally, our guide led us to the cemetery, which we identified as the former cemetery of the IR 30. It was overgrown from all sides, it is so well hidden that we could never have found without a guide. All tombs were empty and the German dead had been transferred to a collective cemetery.”

VDK, 1926,10

WW1 photos from German cemeteries in the Argonne can be seen here, amongst others also the one of the IR 30:
https://argonne1418.com/photos-depoque/cimetieres-allemands/

Christine

Argonnenfahrt_1_German.docx

Edited 8 February , 2016 by AliceF

[AliceF]

A journey to the Argonne (June 1926)-part 2

"All dugouts on the St. Hubert height, as well as in the Franzen-valley have collapsed. The trenches, at most knee-deep, are completely overgrown. Only a fully concreted trench was perfectly preserved. In the Franzen-valley two well-preserved wooden boards which were posted on an oak tree give evidence of the old Prussian order. On one stood "for cans", on the other "for waste". Hand grenades, mortar ammunition, old boots, etc. were lying around. Our guide showed us a small cemetery about 800-1000m southwest of the cemetery St. Hubert. In this cemetery remains had not been removed, because it was only discovered recently.

The guide found it himself, when he was participating in a hunt of wild boar and passed on the information to the authorities. The dead, who still rest in this cemetery, will therefore soon be reburied in a collective cemetery. We found in the cemetery, which is well hidden in the thicket and would have been impossible to find without a guide, still standing crosses on the graves with amongst others following names:

Musketier Borrowiak 5./30, died 30.11.14; Fritz Jäcker, seminarist, 1-year volunteer, 5./173 from Heinitz, born 4.3.94, died 26.1.1915 (a excellent preserved cast-iron cross); Musketier Fritz, 5./173, died 23.11.14; Kippmann 8./173, died 20.12.14. A wooden cross Weiströver, 5./130, died 22.1.15. Very well preserved cross Musketier Wilhelm Jakobasch, 5./173, died 3.1.15. Well preserved cross, Musketier Wenzel Tadyszack, Musketier Joh. Muth ,5./173, died 22.1.15, Musketier Paul ?, Gefr. Lün?, 5./173, died 12.2.15.“

VDK, 1926, 10

The following soldiers I found in the Verlustenliste

Fritz Jäcker: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1459306
Wilhelm Jacobasch: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1458441
Wenzel Tadyszack: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1459311
Johann Muth: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1422061

Franz Fritz and Wilhelm Jacobasch are in the Volksbund database: they are buried in the cemetery in Berru in Block 5 grave 25 resp. grave 29.
Berru is about 75km away from the Argonne, but comprises reburials from Argonne area.

Photos from Berru (WW1 and today) can for example be found here:

http://frontdechampagne.over-blog.com/2014/04/le-cimetiere-militaire-allemand-de-berru.html

Christine

Argonnenfahrt_2_German.docx

[Martin Feledziak]

Very interesting accounts -

There are always going to be difficulties with names and spellings etc but it is extraordinary that the visiting old soldiers were able to take details from the graves they saw and yet most of the soldiers named were then lost and the two that have been moved and named on the database were moved some considerable distance.

so even Fritz Jäcker ( who had an excellent Grave marker iron cross ) appears to have been lost.

Very interesting research you are putting together, good work Christine.

[AliceF]

Martin, I found this story quite amazing. Imagining these soldiers visiting their former battle fields with a (French???) guide in 1926. Seeing these overgrown sites and the emptied cemeteries and then the other one, which was found during boar hunting. And the waste separation – something that I always found so typical German - in this context.
I was glad to find at least some of the soldiers in the VDK database, that indicates, that probably all of them were moved to Berru.
Christine

[AliceF]

A journey to the Argonne (June 1926)-part 3

“Near La Harazée there is a large common grave for French soldiers. The individual graves of the French soldiers have white crosses. They have just as little decoration as the German graves. Then we visited the large German collective cemetery of Servon, where the remains of the German soldiers of St. Hubert have been transferred to. The cemetery is kept clean. No weed, but also no flower grows on the graves. The crosses are black with white inscription. In the rear part there is in the middle and on each side a mass grave in which rest about 2600 German soldiers each and who could not [all?] be identified. On the mass grave in the middle there is a black plaque with the names of the identified soldiers. However, most of these names are no longer legible.

On the way back we passed the pioneer cemetery at the old Roman road, also here the graves had been removed. Only the fencing of the pioneer monument is still preserved. In Varennes a giant monument to the fallen Americans is currently built. Via Verdun we drove back home.

Two comrades from I.R. 30, Aachen”

VDK 1926, 10

I attach two photos

1. A photo of the IR 30 today (named in a post just above). The photo is taken by Hans Briaire and available at this link:
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/81699692

2. A photo of a pioneer cemetery today, which might be the one named in the text here. The photo is taken by Hans de Regt and available here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hansderegt/4727436712/in/photostream/

An old photo from the same pioneer cemetery (???) can be seen here:
https://www.google.se/search?q=St+Hubert+Argonnen&hl=sv&biw=1366&bih=618&site=imghp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj70PurjOvKAhXLlCwKHXx7Cs8Q_AUIBygC#hl=sv&tbm=isch&q=bois+de+la+gruerie+Pionier+Friedhof+&imgrc=DhV6Inwv1yreMM%3A

Christine

Argonnenfahrt_3_German.docx

[AliceF]

P.S. According to this website (in German, but nice photos): http://www.morthomme.com/varenner-strasse.html
the memorial in the middle of the pioneer cemetery was moved to the German cemetery in Servon. The iron ports were taken way by somebody in autumn 2014.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

I was not aware that the Denkmal had been transferred from the original Pionier 20 site, you can just make it out in the picture in my post #156 above.

The below are close up shots.

The Iron cross stands outside the Cemetery and has a date of 1870 or 1879, it is very faded. I am not sure if it is a French memorial for the town.

Here is a little stone carving which I spotted under a bush.

[egbert]

As I am reading the VdK DVD journal edition Nr 2 from 1932 I came across of one of my specialty interest, cemetery Bärenstall /Hohrodberg, Vosges mountains.

The comparison is interesting, check the rugged path in 1932, some 200m from the old frontline and how it looks today:

Today:

[AliceF]

Thank you for posting the photos Martin! I thought you might have noticed the monument on your visit to Servon.

Egbert, always very fascinating with comparisons of photos taken at different times. Not easy to recognize that it is the same place, if one would not have known it, I think.

Today I make an excursus form the topic. It deals with Maissemy first , but in the second part (to come) it will be about a British cemetery – not a German one. This is the travel description of two sisters:

“Travel to the British war cemetery Tincourt-Boucly (Somme)

Though we did not obtain detailed information about the location of our brother’s grave from the “central detection office” [Zentralnachweisamt] in Berlin, my sister and I decided to go France to make further investigation. Out brother died according to official English notifications a the 7.10.18 in an English field hospital and was buried in the New British Cemetery Tincourt-Boucly (Somme) in Plot 6, Row B, Grave 5. As place to stay we chose St. Quentin, where we found a very pleasant accommodation. Since we had been previously informed that all the graves of Tincourt-Boucly had been moved to the concentration cemetery Maissemy, we first went there. In the list, which the care taker provided most willingly, we found many names of reburied soldiers, but despite eager searching not the one of our dear brother. We did not give up hope despite this disappointment. On our way back [to the accommodation] we found a map at the station of St. Quentin. On this map there was still marked an English cemetery in Tincourt-Boucly. This was the target for the next day. "

VDK 1928, 9

Christine

Tincourt_1_German.docx

[AliceF]

Part 2 of the travel to Tincourt

“Already upon entering the relatively small cemetery – with estimated 2000-3000 graves - we notice behind the white English headstones several rows of black crosses. Over there a sign was shining “German plot”, and next to it a second: “Plot 6”. Very quickly we discovered then row B, grave 5 and found the painfully sought grave at its original location. At a closer look at the cemetery we counted 140 German graves, all provided with name, regimental number and date of death - punched on tin plates. The cemetery seems to have been originally a German hospital cemetery - as we found English graves with wooden crosses with German inscription. After the withdrawal in September 1918 it became a British field hospital cemetery. Among the German graves were those that had as dates of death days in March 1919. To our great regret, the guard had traveled to England the day before, thus we could not obtain more information. We found the absolute cleanliness and neatness of this cemetery very pleasant. With the same care as the English grave rows, the ones of our [soldiers] were decorated at the top end with narrow, vivid flower beds, which were followed by a broad strip of grass. You can understand that we felt, despite of our deep sorrow, a sense of gladness about the success of our trip, as we drove back home.

Miss K.B., Oberhausen, Rhld.“

VDK, 1928, 9

As the grave location and date of death is given, it is the first time that I can identify the soldier in qustion: Adolf Brützel

In the VDK database:
http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=607409b7757c00895b5de2648b77ae95

In the CWGC database under Adolf Bruetzel:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/25100/TINCOURT%20NEW%20BRITISH%20CEMETERY

In the Verlustenliste:
Gefreiter Brützel Adolf (Obrighoven, Rees), 4.3.1899, vermißt; IR 145, 12. Komp.
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/3061987

The twgpp has a nice photo of Adolfs grave under (Brutzel)
https://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=3350488

I add also a photo from the cemetery with an Australian grave from the 5.10.18. The German plot would be to the left. The photo was found in the google picture seach, but the link to it was broken (www.pinterest.com)

Christine

Tincourt_2_German.docx

[Martin Feledziak]

Another great story

And another British War Graves site where the German burials were not removed after the war and concentrated elsewhere.

Like the one at Fins.

Another coincidence here for me is IR145 which was the same regiment and Company 12 as Andreas number (11) on my list below

A distant relative to me and I do not know if he survived.

Keep up the good work.

[egbert]

And another British War Graves site where the German burials were not removed after the war and concentrated elsewhere.

Like the one at Fins.

....and the one where my Grandfather rests: CWGC Merville

[AliceF]

Martin, it is probably quite difficult to find out if somebody survived or not. I just looked for the IR 145, and found this:
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/IR_145/Verlustliste#Verlustliste_1914.2F18_K.C3.B6nigs-Inf.-Rgt._Nr._145

I did not know that these lists exist. This is work in progress and most soldiers registered in the database are those who died in summer autumn 1914, so it might take some time before this is finished. But I understand, being not on a list, Ehrentafel etc. does not mean that one survived. But the municipality should have a death certificate – whenever he died – or were the documents destroyed in WW2?
Christine

[Dragon]

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Egbert, always very fascinating with comparisons of photos taken at different times. Not easy to recognize that it is the same place, if one would not have known it, I think.

 

The road (now the D116) on which Hohrod Bärenstall is situated slopes downhill and the early photo is taken from a low angle. This old postcard may help. At the left hand edge of the early photo is a structure, just visible, which is a bunker. It's still there and is just at the left hand side of the modern photo.

 

Looking at my old postcard below, you can see the bunker to the left of the picture and the way the verge slopes upwards. The photographer of Egbert's early image was positioned at the side of the bunker, at a low viewpoint, looking up the sloping verge at the entrance gates. In my opinion, this creates a dramatic effect. It's also interesting to see the road in its rough state.

 

 

Gwyn

Edited 18 October , 2016 by Dragon
Forum software upgrade changed spacing

[Dragon]

This shows the bunker and the slope (though it's less steep now than it was in the early photo). This was taken after dusk.

 

 

and (in which the entrance gates are visible, in the wall):

 

 

Gwyn

Edited 18 October , 2016 by Dragon

[Martin Feledziak]

Martin, it is probably quite difficult to find out if somebody survived or not. I just looked for the IR 145, and found this:

http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/IR_145/Verlustliste#Verlustliste_1914.2F18_K.C3.B6nigs-Inf.-Rgt._Nr._145

I did not know that these lists exist. This is work in progress and most soldiers registered in the database are those who died in summer autumn 1914, so it might take some time before this is finished. But I understand, being not on a list, Ehrentafel etc. does not mean that one survived. But the municipality should have a death certificate – whenever he died – or were the documents destroyed in WW2?

Christine

Ok Thanks.

I will keep an eye on this page. It could be that volunteers are working through the names at the back of the regimental history. for IR 145.

There are some interesting soldier and grave photographs towards the bottom of their web page.

[AliceF]

Gwyn, unusual with winter photos, very beautiful.
You have captured many details of your favorite cemeteries!

Martin, good that you point out the links to the photos – hadn’t checked them.

Fantastic if they tried to built up that kind of database available for everybody!

Christine

[AliceF]

I have been wondering about all these postcards of WW1 cemeteries. I mean who would today send a postcard with a view of a cemetery to somebody else (besides of the fact that nobody is sending any postcards anymore at all – but think about some decades ago). In most cases you would probably not do so, besides you want to give a relative information about this particular cemetery. It has been discussed that death was thought about very differently at those times compared to now. Certainly. But I still keep wondering about the motives. Many of these postcards origin from after WW1, but others are from war times. Just imagine a soldier sending a view of a cemetery to someone, while being in a battlefield.

This postcard, which I attach below, caught my attention. It is from Cheppy-Wood (found at delcampe: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,349846057,var,BOIS-DE-CHEPPY-CIMETIERE-ALLEMAND-CARTE-ALLEMANDE-DESSINEE,language,E.html).

I tried to read what is written on it, but I am so terrible bad at this. It is a soldier (Karl) who writes from where he is stationed (trench?) to his friend Andreas, who is also a soldier. I cannot find any connection to the cemetery (but I cannot read all, and I am happy to be corrected). Karl asks his friend how he is, hopes that he is all right. The postcard ends with the wish that they hopefully will see it each other at home again soon. And Karl sends his regards to Andreas’ wife. This last sentence is written just above the graves on the picture.

Christine

I attach also a photo found of probably the same cemetery (found on delcampe (http://www.cartespostalesdelorraine.com/cheppy-55270-waldfriedhof-t3950.html)

Christine

P.S. To be continued with Cheppy cemetery, where these graves were moved after the war.

[Dragon]

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I have been wondering about all these postcards of WW1 cemeteries. I mean who would today send a postcard with a view of a cemetery to somebody else

 

My collection contains both French and German cards from the Vosges and Alsace region. I'm unable to read German cards, but French messages include those sent during or after the war to tell the recipient that this is the cemetery where someone who fell at [X] is buried, usually a family member or friend, but often someone in the community. For example, a card of the German cemetery at Munster (France) was sent to say that: We have climbed the mountains shown in the card, the denuded mountain  and the battlefield of Lingekopf [le Linge] where Amédie Tissot was killed. (Munster is backed by the mountains which were turned into battlefields. I visited Tissot's grave at the huge Cimetière Wettstein after acquiring this card.)

 

Some are sent as a response to the horror the writer is witnessing. For example I have a card photo of burials at Col de la Chipote (1914) which says: Put the card in your album and save it because at la Col de la Chipotte 19000 men, French and German, fell and they are buried in the same graves. If you don’t find me again, let neither fire nor customs officers close the shop.

 

Another of graves from la Chipote says simply: There are so many dead. I know that 19000 men, French and German, have fallen to take this col. The figures are probably inaccurate but two separate French soldiers have quoted them.

 

Another says: I want to give you an idea of how terrible this war is. The combat at Chipote was worse than that in Champagne.

 

Some want to show someone the memorial which has been erected in the vicinity of the cemetery where a loved one is buried. The memorial may have been temporary, as the graves may have been. I imagine this might be to give some comfort that a life had been noticed.

 

I have wondered about the story behind a woman called Hélène sending a card depicting graves at la Chipote. She is working in Alsace as a peripatetic teacher immediately after the war. She has been very busy with an over-full class and some very badly behaved small boys. Possibly some of these boys are fatherless or have been missing a father figure while he is away in the war, and possibly she is having to teach French (perhaps in French) to small children who have been raised as Germans. Such factors might explain why they are unruly - war affects children too. She hopes that her friend's brother returns home well. But why send a postcard of mountain graves? There are plenty of picturesque scenes to choose. I imagined that she may have lost a lover, father or relative, though I'll never know.

 

Another reason is that some cards were sold as fundraisers for war related charities. Some were sold to encourage people to subscribe to an organisation like the VdK. Having bought a card you might want to send it to someone to raise awareness of the charity.

 

The translations are mine and I have picked out cards which depict cemeteries or burials.

 

Gwyn

 

Edited 18 October , 2016 by Dragon
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