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Remembered Today:

German cemeteries in France


AliceF

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Today my final post on Illies from the VDK. It is a part form a longer account of a journey of visits to cemeteries in Belgium and France from 1930:

“[...] The next day I took the train to Salomé (line to La Bassée); passing several concrete dugouts I reached Illies and the cemetery in about 20 minutes. In front of the cemetery there was a car, and in the cemetery I saw a man taking photographs. I asked him if he was the photographer of La Bassée, whereupon he presented himself immediately in good German as Mr. L. from Paris. He works as a commissioner for the Volksbund and is responsible for the horticultural work of a part of the German military cemeteries. He also took care of the wreaths ordered via the Volksbund and apparently also the photographs. Then I greeted the contact person and cemetery caretaker, who also was present and who showed me the grave of my brother Emil. The cross with the small bronze plaque ordered via the Voldksbund was correctly in place. I asked the caretaker to plant 3 rosebushes on the grave. This cemetery looks very different compared to the newly created cemeteries, since it was an old communal cemetery and had already been established by our troops. Old cypress and other trees are here and give the cemetery a look that reminds more of our cemeteries at home. [...]

AH. Stuttgart-Cannstatt"

VDK 1930, 11

Christine

Illies_Reisebericht_German.docx

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Quesnoy-sur-Deule: Grave of 6 unknown British soldiers in German cemetery?

For other reasons (which I can come back to later) I came across the German cemetery in Quesnoy-sur-Deule. I found on the internet a photo of this cemetery (?) showing a cross that indicates the burial of 6 unidentified British soldiers. http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-memoire-necropoles-MPLF-MDH/sepulture-militaire-verlinghem-sujet_4341_1.htm

I do in principle not understand any French, but I assume that the original poster stated that the photos are from Verlinghem. This was questioned, as photo #3 is very likely from Quesnoy-sur-Deule. However, my question, how can I find these British soldiers in any database (I mean the fact that they are buried where they are buried)?
The VDK does not mention any British burials (this reminds me of some descriptions of the CWGC, which often, but not always mentions German burials in CWGC cemeteries): not in Quesnoy-sur-Deule and not in Verlinghem.

The CWGC mentions 9 WW1 graves in the communal extension of Quesnoy-sur-Deule, but here 7 are identified, 2 are not, so it can not be those 6 (http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/28503/QUESNOY-SUR-DEULE%20COMMUNAL%20CEMETERY). So where could I find these 6?

I found this: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127530 but I must admit that I do not get all the details here.

Thanks for any help

Christine

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The initial poster in the French forum identified it as Verlinghem, but the next poster corrected him.

it's Quesnoy-sur-Deule.

They do not know the answer to this "curiosity" either.

Plus they say there's a plot with 11 "British" burials elsewhere on the cemetery, but the CWGC entry says in the header "9 identified burials" , and then in the text "nine Commonwealth burials of the First World War, two of which are unidentified"

JW

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Thank you for the translation, JW.

The 11 burials can be explained: in the communal cemetery (not the German extension) are 9 WW1 burials and 2 WW2 burials.

Christine

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Following Egbert’s thread from back in 2012

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175412&p=1706141

to which he pointed in post #8 of this thread:

I don’t think that trip report to Leffinghe has been translated yet.

So here goes:

(Leffinghe is in Belgium, so offically out of scope for this thread, but the story is so wonderful -and poignant- that it deserves a place here)

"Our trip to Flanders in August 1927

The area on the IJzer canal, opposite Nieuwpoort and the dunes of Lombardsijde, was a hotly contested terrain, where many thousands of our brave blue boys had to give their young lives.

Including our dear boy. He died a heroic death in the dunes near Lombardsijde, in the so-called “Hexenkettel”.

Even though the terrain was under constant enemy fire, his brave Kameraden brought back our son and laid him to rest at the Heldenfriedhof in Leffinghe, where some 2500 men of the Marine Division are buried. This cemetery was built by German troops, and a stone chapel erected. Again it was a good comrade (a sculptor who had also worked on the chapel), who made a gravestone for our boy, and put it on his grave, replacing the wooden cross.

The cemetery at Leffinghe was meticulously cared for by our Marine troops until the year 1918.

It was our sincerest wish to visit the last resting place of our beloved son before we'd die.

So we decided to undertake this trip, at the age of 70, with God’s help.

We travelled from our Thüringer homeland to Cologne, and from there to Aachen, Herbestal, Lüttich (Luik/Liège), Brussels, Ostend.

What were we to do in a strange country, where it would be difficult to converse with the locals? But as there were quite a lot of Flemish who could well understand us, if we spoke slowly (as our languages are related), it all turned out well.

When we arrived at Ostend-quay we immediately noticed two big American warships with 4 smokestacks each, which were anchored in the harbour, dressed overall ["Gepavoiseerd" in Dutch] .

We tried to speak to one of the sailors, which proved not possible unfortunately, as he only spoke English and we only spoke German.

We showed him the photograph of our son, dressed as a sailor, and as soon as he saw that he stood to attention and said, saluting, “German Kamerad”.

We parted with a warm handshake.

We travelled from Ostend on the tramway, which was of great strategic value in the war, and after about half an hour we reached Leffinghe.

We reported to the cemetery-guardian, who was entrusted with the upkeep of the cemetery on behalf of the Belgian authorities. After a short rest we went to the cemetery together, and soon came to the grave of our son.

Once we saw the cemetery with its many graves we were deeply shocked and very disappointed. When our German troops were there the graves were very well kept. But now we saw just one muddy open field, grey and drab, the graves caved in, weathered wooden crosses. Not one green plant, not one blade of grass was to be seen, desolate, forsaken. On the grave of our son we only found the gravestone.

So here our brave heroes lie, in desolation, without any flowers, in wet mud.

Some of the graves had been reconstructed by next of kin, and planted with flowers.The only green on the cemetery came from shrubs with were planted all around, nothing else!

This was not how we had imagined the last resting place of our heroes, and we immediately took steps to have the grave of our son done up. As nothing would grow in this wet mud we arranged for some good gardensoil to be delivered with which to fill in the grave, erect a new grave stone, and have a boxwood and flowers planted.

We had brought some rose-bushes and a white ribbon with us from the homeland. After two days everything was in order, and we entrusted the cemetery guardian with the future upkeep of the grave.

At the beginning I noticed a nice chapel had been built in the cemetery, in which stone tables carry the names of all buried here. During the retreat in 1918 this chapel was hit by an aerial bomb which ripped the roof off. Now the rain penetrates the structure, and if nothing is done this building will fall in on itself. One can see how necessary the War Graves Commission is, and surely you can’t give them enough money.

We said our goodbyes to Leffinghe, and travelled to Lombardsijde, which lies approx. 15 minutes from the beach, and opposite Nieuwpoort.

Here terrible battles took place. Lombardsijde itself was completely flattened by enemy artillery fire.Now it has been rebuilt.

We made our way to the battle field, in the dunes “as high as a house”, to the so-called “Hexenkettel”, the scene of horrible things back then.

Guided by drawings and detailed sketches we found the spot where our dear boy bled to death.

Deeply distressed we kneeled, prayed, and were with him in spirit.

Then we viewed the battlefield. To get the heavy guns into position our Marine troops constructed paved roadways, so that the heavy loads wouldn’t sink into the loose sand and mud. One can see many concrete dugouts, which are all destroyed or blown up however. One shell-hole runs into another. You have to have seen it yourself to begin to understand what our brave troops went through there in those exposed dunes, keeping their lines.

As the sand dunes are constantly moving, due to the wind, all possible artifacts are constantly covered up and exposed. We found human bones, rifles, shoes, fieldflasks, rusty handgrenades etc.

The local people dig for metal in the dunes, and find whole cartloads of the stuff.

One dune catches the eye: the high dune called “Affenberg” [Monkey mountain]. Back in the days this dune was undermined by the enemy, and about to be blown up, killing thousands of our troops. But through the alertness of our listening posts this plan was thwarted.

On this high dune there is now a cross, which can be seen from afar. We climbed up this dune from where one has a 360’ view over the sea, towards the Yser canal, up to Nieuwpoort and Dunkerque.

The cross is surrounded by a 1 meter high handrail. And here visitors to the battlefield have laid their finds (bones). We too laid our finds there next to a bouquet of dune-flowers, and prayed an “Our Father”.

We said our goodbyes to this hallowed war memorial, and the blood-drenched battlefields, and walked down the coast to Westende and Middelkerke, where we saw many destroyed buildings and concrete dugouts.

From Middelkerke we travelled to Ostend, where we visited the cemetery.

On this cemetery German, English, French and Belgians peacefully rest together.

Again the part where our German heroes were buried made on us a desolate, windswept and depressing impression.

We saw an overgrown, collapsed field, with brittle and weathered wooden crosses. Not one flower adorns these graves, they are deserted and forgotten!

The French and English graves however are in the best of conditions, well kept, surrounded by green lawns, provided with grave stones, and planted with flowers.

As a German you should really be very ashamed towards the English and French next of kin present.

The Belgian cemetery guardian, a very courteous man, told us that until a few years ago the graves on this cemetery were kept in order by the Belgian government. But as a German association had taken over the “sponsorship” the Belgian government had not bothered with them anymore after that.(Follows a remark by the Volksbund: "the cemetery will be restored this year still")

It would be better to abstain from the rush in building ever more memorials in Germany, and concentrate firstly on the graves of our heroes in foreign lands."

JW

ps: and this thread is loosely related to the above story:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227649&hl=

Erich Bonert, Marine Division, died at Nieuwpoort, buried in Leffinghe (Same regiment, but Erich came from Barmen, and that is not in Thüringen)

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Great that you translated the story that Egbert posted!

Yes, there are quite a couple of German military cemeteries in France, nearly 200.
In Pas-de-Calais and Nord together little less than 50.
Before concentration there must have been thousands (in France).
I have used the map (your link in post # 280) myself, since I did not find any similar German page (I never got the VDK map really work in detail).

Christine

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Quesnoy-sur-Deule: Grave of 6 unknown British soldiers in German cemetery?

For other reasons (which I can come back to later) I came across the German cemetery in Quesnoy-sur-Deule. I found on the internet a photo of this cemetery (?) showing a cross that indicates the burial of 6 unidentified British soldiers. http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-memoire-necropoles-MPLF-MDH/sepulture-militaire-verlinghem-sujet_4341_1.htm

I do in principle not understand any French, but I assume that the original poster stated that the photos are from Verlinghem. This was questioned, as photo #3 is very likely from Quesnoy-sur-Deule. However, my question, how can I find these British soldiers in any database (I mean the fact that they are buried where they are buried)?

The VDK does not mention any British burials (this reminds me of some descriptions of the CWGC, which often, but not always mentions German burials in CWGC cemeteries): not in Quesnoy-sur-Deule and not in Verlinghem.

The CWGC mentions 9 WW1 graves in the communal extension of Quesnoy-sur-Deule, but here 7 are identified, 2 are not, so it can not be those 6 (http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/28503/QUESNOY-SUR-DEULE%20COMMUNAL%20CEMETERY). So where could I find these 6?

I found this: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127530 but I must admit that I do not get all the details here.

Thanks for any help

Christine

Interesting, a friend of mine mentioned this recently. He says that he even was given years ago an old grave marker (or at least a plaque from the grave) with a British name... I'll meet him again in some weeks and see whether I can get more information. I will report back at that point about this.

Jan

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Thank you Jan, great if you could find out anything more. Somehow I assumed that it was only difficult to find out anything about unidentified Germans in British cemeteries, but was not aware that this could be the same the other way as well (as the CWGC provides so much information on their website). Maybe these soldiers are commemorated in another cemetery (concentration cemetery).

Christine

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Quesnoy-sur-Deule: Grave of 6 unknown British soldiers in German cemetery?

For other reasons (which I can come back to later) I came across the German cemetery in Quesnoy-sur-Deule. I found on the internet a photo of this cemetery (?) showing a cross that indicates the burial of 6 unidentified British soldiers. http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-memoire-necropoles-MPLF-MDH/sepulture-militaire-verlinghem-sujet_4341_1.htm

I do in principle not understand any French, but I assume that the original poster stated that the photos are from Verlinghem. This was questioned, as photo #3 is very likely from Quesnoy-sur-Deule. However, my question, how can I find these British soldiers in any database (I mean the fact that they are buried where they are buried)?

The VDK does not mention any British burials (this reminds me of some descriptions of the CWGC, which often, but not always mentions German burials in CWGC cemeteries): not in Quesnoy-sur-Deule and not in Verlinghem.

The CWGC mentions 9 WW1 graves in the communal extension of Quesnoy-sur-Deule, but here 7 are identified, 2 are not, so it can not be those 6 (http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/28503/QUESNOY-SUR-DEULE%20COMMUNAL%20CEMETERY). So where could I find these 6?

I found this: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127530 but I must admit that I do not get all the details here.

Thanks for any help

Christine

Hi Christine,

This is a very interesting and confusing topic!! I have an interest in Lt W.F.Lambert who was originally buried in the Quesnoy sur Deule Communal cemetery German extension (grave 377). He is one of 42 British known and unknown soldiers listed on the original graves registration report dated 1921(note Gibson the subject of subject 127530 is not on this). A second report dated 1922 lists Gibson as being buried in a mass grave (no 114) along with 4 named German soldiers. There is also another mass grave (no 212 or 312?) with an unknown British soldier and 4 named and 1 unknown German soldiers. A hand written note on the form indicates that Gibson and Lambert are not to be moved. A third report dated 1926 shows just Gibson and Lambert left in the cemetery but a hand written note indicates that Gibsons remains could not be found and Lamberts were removed to London Cemetery Extension. A reburial return shows this was done on 22nd June 1953 and I guess the memorial headstone for Gibson was done at the same time? The CWGC page on the communal cemetery says that 41 British soldiers were removed to Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery - Souchez from the German extension (the 42 on the original report minus Lambert). I have checked the named soldiers and all appear to be in Cabaret Rouge. This does not resolve the issue with the photo of the 6 unknown British soldiers shown in the photo.

regards

Richard

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Thank you very much Richard. With your information I could look at the grave report sheets for Lambert and Gibson and understand the reburial/not reburials from Quesnoy-sur-Deule a bit better. (Even if it does not solve the question of the 6 unknown soldiers).
Christine

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I think my friend mentioned "Gibson" on the old grave marker... As promised, I can say more only after I have met him in a few weeks.

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Thank you very much Richard. With your information I could look at the grave report sheets for Lambert and Gibson and understand the reburial/not reburials from Quesnoy-sur-Deule a bit better. (Even if it does not solve the question of the 6 unknown soldiers).

Christine

Hi Christine,

Regarding Lambert and Gibson, I do not know why they were not moved to Cabaret Rouge Cemetery when the other 41 were moved (sometime between the 1922 and 1926 reports). And why were they moved in 1953, was the German Cemetery to be closed as some were after the 2nd World War and this was not done? And of the 6 unknown British soldiers shown in the photo none of the registration reports indicate six in one grave, there are single, two, three, five, seven and fifteen. Perhaps someone who lives near to the cemetery could find out what the grave number is.

regards

Richard

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Jan, I am looking forward to what your friend will say.

Richard, but the grave references used today (plot and grave number) is not the same as used during the WW1 (numbers only), or am I wrong?
What I find difficult with German WW1 cemeteries is the fact that there are no records for the whole cemetery available - as for example the CWGC provides. Weltkriegsopfer.de is unfortunately closed down. I found this here:

https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/Quesnoy-sur-De%C3%BBle-Deutscher-SoldatenFriedhof/279571# (same source as map below)

Many of you probably know about this, but for me it was new. Not complete, but I was looking for two other soldiers here and found them luckily on the list. But of course it does not help in this case (but actually some of the graves for unknown German soldiers are on the list).

Christine

post-121276-0-26616400-1458757421_thumb.

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Jan, I am looking forward to what your friend will say.

Richard, but the grave references used today (plot and grave number) is not the same as used during the WW1 (numbers only), or am I wrong?

What I find difficult with German WW1 cemeteries is the fact that there are no records for the whole cemetery available - as for example the CWGC provides. Weltkriegsopfer.de is unfortunately closed down. I found this here:

https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/Quesnoy-sur-De%C3%BBle-Deutscher-SoldatenFriedhof/279571# (same source as map below)

Many of you probably know about this, but for me it was new. Not complete, but I was looking for two other soldiers here and found them luckily on the list. But of course it does not help in this case (but actually some of the graves for unknown German soldiers are on the list).

Christine

Thanks Christine,

I too look forward to what Jan finds out about Gibson.

Richard

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I had a look as well at the grave report forms from Quesnoy and concentration forms for Cabaret Rouge. I was curious – independent of the Gibson case. And I come to the same conclusion as you, Richard, – I do not find any grave with 6 unknown soldiers. I attach the list.

I could sum up 55 soldiers; of these are 9 German and 1 French and 45 soldiers of the British army. One Indian was re-buried in the cemetery at Rue-du-Bacquerot No 1, Lambert in London cemetery and Gibson not found. Remain 42, this is almost the 41 that were moved to Cabaret Rouge according to the CWGC. But I can have made a mistake, and I could never really localize the one unknown British soldier, who died at the 5.12.1916. For the soldiers, who died in June/July 1916 (in grave 432, 452 and 461), I could not find any concentration report. But that does not mean anything, since I never find any of these reports, when I cannot search for a particular name. But I assume that these were moved to Cabaret Rouge as well.

The interesting thing with the grave were Gibson (no 27) was buried is that the Indian soldier has been taken out of this grave, the French?, one German is definitely left (Riedl), the other German (Schlins) I have not found yet in the database (no Schlins in the VDK-list). Dielzke and Barmlzke (grave 114) do not exist in the VDK database either (wrongly spelled?!). And what also puzzles me is that even if the date of death is almost similar of the soldiers is that the grave numbers a quite far apart 27 and 114. All very confusing indeed.

So the exact location of the cross with the 6 soldiers in Quesnoy cemetery would help – as well as the German grave reference - even according to the new system.

Christine

Quesnoy_1.docx

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Great that you manage to find out the right names so quickly.
This is very interesting because it means that in the English grave report forms there is a grave no 27 and one with number 114, with soldiers, who died the same date, which today are in the same grave (Block 2, grave 118). And I do not think that the German soldiers were re-grouped in anyway.

Christine

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Great that you manage to find out the right names so quickly.

This is very interesting because it means that in the English grave report forms there is a grave no 27 and one with number 114, with soldiers, who died the same date, which today are in the same grave (Block 2, grave 118). And I do not think that the German soldiers were re-grouped in anyway.

Christine

Hi Christine,

I am reading the CWGC report differently. I am reading that Munschi and Bertelot were in grave 27, Gibson, Schlins, Riedl, Dielzke and Barmlzke in grave 114 and unknown British soldier, Koch, Kohler, Dolz,Blechschmidt and unknown German soldier in grave 212 or 312. Not sure who is correct!!

I have been checking exhumation and reburial returns for when the soldiers were moved to Cabaret Rouge in 1924 and it is interesting that some of them who were buried as unknown in graves 717 and 719 were identified by identity papers in bottles when they were exhumed. Also in grave 718 were Horton and Eick but after transfer Eick now has an unknown British soldier headstone and I cannot find any record for him.

regards

Richard

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Richard, I was just about to add a comment that I think I interpreted the grave report sheet wrong.

I thought the first 5 soldiers belonged to grave 27, the next two to 114 etc. But since JW, found out that Schlipf, Riedl, Dietze and Barnitzke are in the same grave, this does not make sense (well the different nations in one grave were odd anyway). This means there is a grave reference for Munshi (no 27) and for the German soldiers (number 114).

But then I concluded - before I read your post that - that the grave reference for the French and Gibson are unclear. I actually do not know. The same with the Soldier who died 5.12.16.

I attach a new corrected table (first grave report sheet only).
Christine

post-121276-0-22237700-1458926831_thumb.

Quesnoy_2.docx

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Richard, I was just about to add a comment that I think I interpreted the grave report sheet wrong.

I thought the first 5 soldiers belonged to grave 27, the next two to 114 etc. But since JW, found out that Schlipf, Riedl, Dietze and Barnitzke are in the same grave, this does not make sense (well the different nations in one grave were odd anyway). This means there is a grave reference for Munshi (no 27) and for the German soldiers (number 114).

But then I concluded - before I read your post that - that the grave reference for the French and Gibson are unclear. I actually do not know. The same with the Soldier who died 5.12.16.

I attach a new corrected table (first grave report sheet only).

Christine

Hi Christine,

I have just found a corrected registration report for the grave for "Eick or unknown British soldier" which is now identified as Private R.S Edwards 2/Lancashire Fusiliers died 21.10.14 Plot 21 Row E grave 20 (next to Horton who was buried in grave 718 at Quesnoy with him).

Richard

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Thanks for the additional information Richard!

Found this on Boult sur Suippe: http://www.lunion.fr/682264/article/2016-03-14/marne-un-lotissement-se-construit-sur-un-ancien-cimetiere-allemand - maybe interesting for you, who can understand French including the discussion about the building permit (in the area of the former cemetery?).

Did only look at the first part, which is free of charge.

I have for quite a while been looking for a photo of the cemetery and wonder if the article actually shows one (very small)?!

Happy Easter!

Christine

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And this is how I got interested in Quesnoy-sur-Deule:
I found the card below (1. Picture) and wondered if it was possible to trace these two German soldiers and their actual burial places. This was easier than I thought, because of two facts: 1) what looked like two single graves in a landscape, which could be anywhere, was probably a cemetery 2) one of the names was very unusual (Mosqua). Help was a second card (see picture #2 below) of the same painter, that could indicate – provided it was the same place – that there were more than these two graves.

So I traced the soldiers to:
1. Mosqua, Karl, from Hildesheim, died 22.10.14 in Pont Rouge, IR 104, 2. Komp.
Verlustenliste: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/800123
And actually buried today in Hildesheim, so he was repatriated.
http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=153bcfdb3241f09e8f6838da280a493b

2. Kayser, Max Leutnant der Reserve, died 2.11.1914, Le Gheer, IR 104, 4. Komp.
Verlustenliste: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1021544
He is today buried in the German cemetery Quesnoy-sur-Deule.
http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id=1775&tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=bc1ba8215dc186c10d6596aceb89aa43

So the two soldiers are not buried next to each other anymore. My first thought was that Kayser has been reburied (to Quesnoy) from somewhere else. But it does not seem so. Most graves in Quesnoy-sur-Doyle are first burials and not concentrations. This means that soldiers, who died in this part of Belgium at that time, were transported to France for burial. Deulemont for example (closer to Gheer and Pont Rouge) seems not to have had a German cemetery.

And it means that the card actually shows the cemetery of Quesnoy sur Deule, which I tried to confirm since then (I’ll attach more in the next post).

Christine

Source of the cards:
http://www.akpool.de/ansichtskarten/25297686-kuenstler-ansichtskarte-postkarte-haenel-w-soldatengraeber-ltn-der-res-kayser-faehnrich-mosqua-i-wk
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kunstler-Ak-Graber-hinter-der-Ferme-Soldatengraber-Erster-Weltkrieg-1103538-/371564250550?hash=item5682f485b6

post-121276-0-62801400-1459694154_thumb.

post-121276-0-55903600-1459694177_thumb.

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