War Grave Mystery

[Drummy]

As part on my ongoing research into those of the 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers awarded the 1914 Star I have found a confusing commemoration, I need some help to answer this mystery. A 30 year old Private, Bernard Gibson, of the 2nd Battalion, The Lancashire Fusiliers died of wounds 3rd November 1914 and was buried at Quesnoy-Sur-Deule Communal Cemetery German Extension. His grave was later lost and he is commemorated on a Special Memorial headstone. However as opposed the general area of his original burial, this headstone is positioned behind the WW2 plot at London Cemetery & Extension, Longueval, Somme. The reference to his original burial is on the headstone which I visited earlier this week.

At the time of his death 2/LF were serving in the Armentieres / 'Plugstreet' sector in October / November which fits with the area where Bernard was buried, as Quesnoy-Sur-Deule is not far from Armentieres.

My question is why is this soldier commemorated on the Somme, as there are a number of CWGC sites within the Armentieres area where the Special Memorial headstone could have been located?

Can anyone shed any light on this mystery and can anyone check any early post war registers to see if there is any mention of this special memorial and when it was erected.

Many thanks Neil

[Pierre]

Another similar case, Pte M. Nolan, (11/10/1918), 13th Bn Canadian Infantry (Quebec Rgt) has his St Amand Les Eaux Com. Cem. Memorial (also near the Belgian border) in Cabaret Rouge British Cem. (Souchez) Pas de Calais at about 80 KM.

I also wonder why.

Regards.

Pierre

[Peter Woodger]

Hi Neil & Pierre

When a cemetery is concentrated and a body can not be found the Memorial Stone is erected in the cemetery that recieved the concentrations. London Cemetery Extention was not openned before 1929 and remained open for many years after that date. I do not know Caberet Rouge well but believe it also was open late and recieved many small concentrations.

I suggest that the memorial stones are there because that is where the body would have been concentrated if it had been found.

Peter

[auchonvillerssomme]

Cabaret Rouge would have made more sense when reading the CWGC pages.

mick

[Drummy]

Thanks for the above help so far, the theory of concentration cemetery i.e. where his body would if found have been placed seems an interesting one and I'll see if CWGC can help, if this is the case makes me wonder how many soldiers etc who died outside the Somme area now lie buried within it, if bodies were brought beyond cemeteries such as Cabaret Rouge from as far north as the Belgian border? Seems a very long way to transport remains when countless cemeteries/plots etc lie between these areas.

If the grave was 'lost' Gibson may well have been exhumed by the German's when they cleared this German plot and may well lie in whatever German cemetery they now lie as an unknown soldier (although I have absolutely no idea when/where the remains were moved to, or indeed if they have been? Are there still German graves there?). I appreciate this is pure speculation.

Has anyone got an original London Cemetery & Ext Register that may hold some further information?

On a further note I believe that the reference to Gibson's original burial place which is contained on the headstone, is a significant piece of information that should appear on the online database entry for Gibson as at face value that does not tell the whole picture.

Thanks Neil.

[Aurel Sercu]

If the grave was 'lost' Gibson may well have been exhumed by the German's when they cleared this German plot and may well lie in whatever German cemetery they now lie as an unknown soldier (although I have absolutely no idea when/where the remains were moved to, or indeed if they have been? Are there still German graves there?). I appreciate this is pure speculation.

Neil,

I think you are right. But I can be wrong, for I don't know enough about the concentration of German graves into larger German cemeteries in the North of France.

But it reminds me of a similar case here near Ypres.

Langemark German Cemetery (Soldatenfriedhof) has a Kameradengrab, approx. 25000 remains, non identified. Two of them are British : Carlill and Lockley. There remains were among the unidentifiable German remains moved here from elsewhere (I remember that Carlill was from (near) Louvain, forgot where Lockley came from.)

So there names (certainly Carlill, don't know about Lockley) are among the 17000 on the bronze tables surrounding the mass grave. (Actually Carlill's name is wrongly spelled as Carhill. And four years ago a spcial sign was added on the side of the first table.)

So I think that it is cannot be ruled out that Gibson's remains were taken to a German collective grave of unidentified remains in the north of France ? (But again, I am not familiar with that area.)

Aurel

[Peter Woodger]

Neil

All of this is thinking aloud so should be prefaced with the words “It is possible that”

If Gibson was buried in a German Ext. and as SDGW says he died of wounds then we are looking at a man who died as a POW. The British were informed of his death in time for his listing in SDGW to say he DOW but that does not mean that the British Authorities knew where he was buried.

If his burial place was not known until much later then initially he would be classed as burial place unknown and his name would be on Ploegstreet Memorial.

From the placement of his Memorial Stone, at the back of the WW2 plot, it is possible that his burial place was not known until post WW2.

If this is the case you also need to look at the original Ploegstreet Memorial register or even the memorial itself if the panels have not been changed. This would also mean that he would not be mentioned in the original Register of London Ext.

Peter

[Drummy]

Many thanks Aurel and Pete another interesting and plausible suggestion, I have pm'd Terry Denham to see if he can shed any light on this case.

[Drummy]

Just remembered I have a photo of the LF's panel at Ploegsteert, checked and could not see Gibson's name on it, though that is not to say that the panel has not been replaced over the last 90 years and his name removed. Original registers may hold the answer.

[Terry Denham]

He does not appear in the original register for London Cemetery (1927) or Ploegsteert Memorial (1928).

[Drummy]

Thanks Terry, I think I'll see what CWGC can add re this one then. As an when I get any further on this I will post an update.

[Peter Woodger]

If the original London Register was produced in 1927 it would not have any of the extension names there.

Peter

[Drummy]

Hi Pete,

I have just taken a look at the CWGC write up on London Cem & Ext and note that the WW2 plot (165 graves) was formed from 1946, Judging from the position of the Special Memorial, on its own behind the WW2 plot. If it were located here before Second War graves were reinterred here then it would have stood on its own in a very large empty space of land so it may well have been erected at the time (or in the years after) WW2 burials were made here. Does the special memorial feature on early post WW2 cemetery plans/registers I wonder. The headstone is clearly marked on the plan within the register held at the cemetery now.

Thanks Neil.

[Peter Woodger]

Neil

I have looked at some burial records in plots10 and 12 and they were of bodies found in 1954 and 1955. Space must have been left for WW1 finds when WW2 reburials were started. Very complicated.

Peter

[Aurel Sercu]

I was wondering if the other Special Memorials in that same row may be relevant in a way. Helping to solve the mystery. Don't know how exactly, but maybe dates, units ... ? But in the Cemetery Reports I didn't find them. But I guess the reason was that (yesterday) the CWGC database was a little slow, and I was a little impatient, so I must have overlooked the few that are there. Maybe someone with more patience than I have ? :-)

(Actually I found one, but it was in a plot.)

Aurel