German cemeteries in France

[healdav]

1 hour ago, PascalMallet said:

Hej Christine,

 

All records I read in Paris were about the same. They told as much as they can about the dead man (and in good French, with long and very correct sentences). Ambulances were not on the front line. Wounded were transported to ambulances by horse wagons (few motors). I guess it was the same for other armies. Death records were transcripted to city records few months (or years) later, but only with date and place of death, so this ambulance source is quite precious. I will post you more.

 

About text on the coat, I don't know about "Enspar Gro", but "B.A. II" probably means 2nd Bavarian Army (they wrote army number with roman digits and that army was fighting there) and "R 14" is probably "JR 14" (Germans used "J" for uppercase "I"). That poor guy was recorded as missing in his regiment and that record is the last thing to be told about him.

 

Pascal

The American Volunteer Ambulances claimed that they could often get their vehicles to within 200 metres of the front line, and there is certainly evidence that they did just that.

[AOK4]

B.A. II refers to Bekleidungsamt II. It is specifically mentioned that they got the information from his uniform. BA. II was a marking in the clothing. The rest of the numbers and letters can also just refer to the size of his clothing, although R. 14 seems to refer to Infanterie-Regiment 14, which belonged to the II. Armeekorps. Infanterie-Regiment 14 was engaged to the West of Geluveld (Heranthage Woods) in mid November 1914. Egbert Sandrock's grandfather (see the thread about his trunk) belonged to IR 49, which belonged to the same 4th Infantry Division. Although IR 140 or IR 149 may be possible in case a number was missing.

No Bavarian soldier, but a Prussian (the Bavarian regiment would be given as 14. J.R. normally, not J.R. 14).

 

I would say his name (first name or family name) may have been Caspar or Kaspar.

 

Then again, it was not unusual to reissue uniform pieces to someone else...

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

B.A. II refers to Bekleidungsamt II. It is specifically mentioned that they got the information from his uniform. BA. II was a marking in the clothing. The rest of the numbers and letters can also just refer to the size of his clothing, although R. 14 seems to refer to Infanterie-Regiment 14, which belonged to the II. Armeekorps. Infanterie-Regiment 14 was engaged to the West of Geluveld (Heranthage Woods) in mid November 1914. Egbert Sandrock's grandfather (see the thread about his trunk) belonged to IR 49, which belonged to the same 4th Infantry Division. Although IR 140 or IR 149 may be possible in case a number was missing.

No Bavarian soldier, but a Prussian (the Bavarian regiment would be given as 14. J.R. normally, not J.R. 14).

 

I would say his name (first name or family name) may have been Caspar or Kaspar.

 

Then again, it was not unusual to reissue uniform pieces to someone else...

 

Jan

Thanks Jan. I mistakingly thought it was "Bayerisch Armeekorps II" as it was ruling Comines area.

 

I checked that Geluveld was about 16km (direct line) far from Ouderdom, so maybe a little too far for IR 14. Very interesting to think that "Esper Gro" was maybe part of his name. Were missing soldiers names reported in German regiments diaries? Sometimes it was in French diaries, sometimes not.

 

Pascal

[AliceF]

Tack så mycket, Jan. Bekleidungsamt - I see. Kaspar has crossed my mind - but only as first name, not family name (and not with a C). 

Have checked several name combinations in the Verlustenliste - but nothing that fits with IR 14.

But if it was not his uniform - it would not help anyway.

 

Christine

[AliceF]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎26 at 04:35, pandect said:

Is there information about the Mont de Marsan cemetery in the German archives that I have noticed referred to here?

David

 

I did not find much actual descriptions about the cemetery in Mont de Marsan. There was no cemetery description here: http://www.volksbund.de/en/kriegsgraeberstaetten.html , which surprised me.

But the cemetery is listed here on page 138: https://issuu.com/volksbund/docs/schicksal_in_zahlen_band_2/138  (finally I found an actual list on all German cemeteries in France!).

In the member journal I found the following:

”Mont de Marsan (Landes) (POW cemetery).

From a travel report by senior engineer E., Bremen.

About 60 German soldiers rest in the cemetery near the village Mont de Marsan. They were seriously wounded and taken to the hospitals in town, where they died. When entering the cemetery, I was very surprised, because what I saw was a desert surrounded by forest. The individual grave mounds had disappeared as a result of weathering and all crosses were rotten. In addition, the remnants of the crosses were not always on the right graves. Immediately I complained to the authorities of the municipality. There I was given a cemetery plan, which allowed me to find the grave of my son. I was also assured that the cemetery was just going to be repaired - work that could be completed in about two weeks. (Based on this report, the Volksbund has immediately contacted the German official bodies and requested action. About the success of our steps will be reported later. The Editorial Board). "

VDK member journal, 1927, 5

The next entry I find is from 1953, it is a letter of a French woman, who helped to restore the cemetery. Later reburial took place so the number of German buried soldiers today is 258.

I found this in a French forum (including some photos):  http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-d-aujourd-hui-actualites-14-18-commemorations/cimetiere-militaire-allemand-sujet_2827_1.htm. I do not understand French, but hope the link is ok.

Christine

Mont de Marsan_German.pdf

[ejwalshe]

Merci, Danke and Thanks to Christine, Dave, Jan et Pascal for sharing their methods and research - I look forward to the updates daily.  This has been a most entertaining and educating thread - Ted

[AliceF]

Thanks, Ted.

 

Here something more from Mont-de-Marsan, from 1953 and this time a French perspective

 

"A letter from France

 

Volunteers at the cemetery Mont-de-Marsan

[...]

Madame de la P. writes from Mont-de-Marsan (Landes) to our representative in France:

 

'Last Sunday we were able to work a lot at the cemetery, although it was very cold. There is still much to do until everything is in order again. Next Sunday we will go back to the cemetery, if the weather permits. We hope to be finished by the end of winter. I went also to the mayor's office again and have received notice that the city council has decided to complete the enclosure of the cemetery. However, the wall will not be finished, but a good fence will be established. But even this is a step forward. I have also pointed out that the large central cross has fallen down, the wooden cross is rotten and that it would be good to replace it with one made out of concrete or stone.

 

I'm really happy that I can be useful to you and the families of the dead, and that I could send you a full list of the buried soldiers. There is nothing too much for me, if I can mitigate the pain of those who do not even have the consolation of knowing where their loved ones rest, and who are too far away to be able to maintain the graves themselves.

 

We are very touched by your thanks, but what we do here, we do with joyful heart. It is enough reward for us to see how the cemetery is slowly losing its deserted impression. When passing by it was sad to see the graves overgrown, without care and without a name. This is going to be different now.' "

 

VDK, 1953.4

 

Christine

 

P.S. I'll open a thread on "Enspar Gro" under soldiers.

Mont de Marsan_1953_German.pdf

[PascalMallet]

19 hours ago, AliceF said:

P.S. I'll open a thread on "Enspar Gro" under soldiers.

 

Hej Christine,

 

That's a very good idea. Maybe we could eventually find his name, and someone looking for his ancestor "with two Arab women on his arm"...

 

I read that thread about cemetery in Mont-de-Marsan. Very interesting to see POW fo far from the frontline. I think that anyone can have an idea about that matter by translating with Google. If needed I can help for translation ("PGM" = "WW1").

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

On 27/07/2016 at 23:43, ejwalshe said:

Merci, Danke and Thanks to Christine, Dave, Jan et Pascal for sharing their methods and research - I look forward to the updates daily.  This has been a most entertaining and educating thread - Ted

 

Thanks Ted, though I am quite new here and Christine has done the job.

[PascalMallet]

On 28/07/2016 at 21:38, AliceF said:

P.S. I'll open a thread on "Enspar Gro" under soldiers.

 

Hej Christine,

 

I have been away for few days. Did you already open that new thread? Can you tell us the link?

 

Have a good day!

 

Pascal

[Martin Feledziak]

Greetings Pascal.

 

Christine started the new thread here.

 

[PascalMallet]

4 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said:

Greetings Pascal.

 

Christine started the new thread here.

Thanks Martin. I go there right now.

 

[AliceF]

During spring I came across the German cemetery in Caudry:

“Caudry (Nord), 10 km NW. Le Cateau

On a side road, behind the large English cemetery is the German military cemetery. 1632 identified soldiers are buried in individual graves and 1565 unknown German soldiers in a collective grave. The graves are unplanted, but clean and free of weeds. The wooden crosses are mostly in a very poor condition, partly also broken. The inscriptions are often hard to read and many times distorted. On the common grave, which is bordered with bricks, there is a 2.50m tall wooden cross. The ground is bare. A monument in the rear part was not completed. Two stylised eagles made of granite and derived from the old German cemetery have been placed next to this monument. The hedges and trees, amongst these many trees of life, which were planted after the war, are well maintained. Soldiers have been reburied in this cemetery from the following locations: [place list is attached as separate document].”

VDK, 1928,6

Photos from Caudry today can be for example found here: http://www.peterswar.net/Nord/DSFCaudr.htm

The stone crosses were erected 1976.

There is actually a short YouTube clip on internet as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARqJhTb2lo ).

A photo from the British cemetery can be seen here http://www.delcampe.net/item.php?id=281008442&var=59-Caudry-le-cimetiere-monument-anglais&language=F&sessionToken=sslLogin_dfff802d7982a6ac2cd0829c54a0a1cd

Christine

Attached photo source:

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,236189692,var,Oct13-162-Caudry---Cimetiere---Monument-allemand,language,F.html

Caudry_German.pdf

Caudry_place_list.pdf

[AliceF]

Hi,

I just wondered if anybody knows where this photo was taken. I thought that the wooden chapel was quite special. The soldiers with crosses, where I can read the inscription, are today all buried in the German military cemetery of St. Etienne a Arnes (but they could be reburied there).

Konrad Hampel, 4.9.1917: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=b37d740573f06161c543e86a1ab65437&cHash=ace245d20d27951e3735cbba686f7c56

Gustav Litzner, 1.9.1917

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=95051bf846f8f1616796f558e5c9ac0c&cHash=20091a66e186cc15494b468c37beda1e

Ferdinand Soll, 20.8.1917

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=ec0a880255ad05788e2c5929a3e9aba7&cHash=8b3570f758bbe83d01f6052830f01d2d

Christine

Source of the photo: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,93688990,var,photos-14-18-cimetiere-allemand-quelque-part-en-france-140mmx100mm,language,E.html

 

[PascalMallet]

Hello Christine,

 

If you go on Delcampe and type "Saint-Etienne-à-Arnes", you will see some pictures of that cemetery with other names. Nothing about that wooden chapel but it could help. I also ask a question to the seller of the postcard if he knows where the picture was taken, but I guess he doesn't as the title he put is "somewhere in France".

 

About 50 crosses were distroyed in 2012 and people of the village went to make a celebration: http://www.20minutes.fr/france/967937-20120708-saint-etienne-a-arnes-solidaire-apres-profanation-45-tombes-allemandes I think you can quickly translate with Google.

 

Have a good day.

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

Hello Christine,

 

I have been away from this thread for few months and I am surprised to see that it seems to be stopped. Is it so or has it been moved?

 

God Jul!

 

Pascal

[ejwalshe]

Hey Everyone

 

This thread may have been slow lately, but over at CEFSG, we're still working on it.  Last post was Nov 30th.

 

Be sure to check out pages 4,5 & 6 for new photos and documentation.

 

It was the collaborative efforts here at the Great War Forum that gave us the break we have been looking for.  

 

Thanks to you, this subject is far from over!

 

Merry Christmas, Ted

[AliceF]

Hi,

Not stopped, not moved, only resting.

Sometimes somebody was asking something and the Volksbund CD had an answer to it. But there were not any questions posed lately and I thought that just posting info might be boring for others in the long run (not for me)

. The texts I can access via the CD are often moving, but somehow also repetitive in their content. But always interesting, I think, in cases where one has some kind of connection/question to a particular cemetery/grave location.

Some of the previous issues I try to follow up, but I have not found anything new (as for example Bolt sur Suippe or the chapel above, or the British graves at Quesnoy).

Merry  Christmas/Frohe Weihnachten/God Jul!

Christine

[The Prussian]

Hello!

I didn´t read each of the million threads here, but I can recommend the Michelin Road Atlas ("Michelin Atlas Routier et Touristique France") for a simply overview.

The cemeteries are marked with "Brit.", "Fr.", "Can." and "All."

Here is an example of Cambrai. You see a lot of british cemeteries.

A new copy costs about 20€, but you´ll find some older, used volumes up to 5€

Edited 24 December , 2016 by The Prussian

[AliceF]

Thanks for the information!

 

I wonder: were there not quite early traveller-guides to war cemeteries in France? Does anyone know a reference/references for such a guide to German cemeteries in France or other books like that (published in the 1920s or 30s)? I think I saw photos of German cemeteries in France that seem to origin from a book (published before WW2) on that topic (do not remember where).

 

Christine

[The Prussian]

Hello Christine.

I don´t a book about that, but the Volklsbund could help.

http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette

[AOK4]

3 hours ago, AliceF said:

Thanks for the information!

 

I wonder: were there not quite early traveller-guides to war cemeteries in France? Does anyone know a reference/references for such a guide to German cemeteries in France or other books like that (published in the 1920s or 30s)? I think I saw photos of German cemeteries in France that seem to origin from a book (published before WW2) on that topic (do not remember where).

 

Christine

 

Hello,

 

There are some guides but more frome the 1930's.

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

Hello Christine and Happy New Year!

 

I am still "fighting" to get information about that British soldier named Brown who was buried in Comines with my grand-father (I opened a thread for this puspose), and I wonder if you got information about German cemeteries in Belgium too, right at the border with France (towns Komen/Comines and Wervik).

 

Pascal

 

I am now reading a book about moving soldiers corpses in France in the 1920's. It is a novel (well documented) what has got the highest French prize (prix Goncourt) in 2013. Fantastic book, probably already translated. French title: "Au revoir là-haut" by Pierre Lemaitre. There were many scandals then (broken bodies to fit in 1.30m long caskets, stones instead of bodies, etc.)

[AliceF]

20 hours ago, The Prussian said:

 

I don´t a book about that, but the Volklsbund could help.

http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette

 

Yes, I wondered if they had something (book with description/travel guide) in their archive maybe.

 

17 hours ago, AOK4 said:

There are some guides but more frome the 1930's.

 

Jan

Very interesting, available somewhere? Library or archive?

 

16 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

I wonder if you got information about German cemeteries in Belgium too, right at the border with France (towns Komen/Comines and Wervik).

The Volksbund CD covers many countries also Belgium. There are about 30 files (can usually range from one sentence to several paragraphs) about Wervik and about 10 on Comines). Anything particular you are interested in? Both cemeteries are also described in Jan's book on Menen Wald.

 

16 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

I am now reading a book about moving soldiers corpses in France in the 1920's. It is a novel (well documented) what has got the highest French prize (prix Goncourt) in 2013. Fantastic book, probably already translated. French title: "Au revoir là-haut" by Pierre Lemaitre. There were many scandals then (broken bodies to fit in 1.30m long caskets, stones instead of bodies, etc.)

Interesting that such a novel with that topic is getting wider attention. I'll look if there is a translation to English or German (no point what so ever for me to try in French). But I am not sure I am able to read the details. Details on burials especially reburials I feel always a bit difficult to get into.

 

I attach a photo from July 1921 from Wervicq-Nord (source: Volksbund, 1921, issue11)

 

Christine

[egbert]

21 hours ago, AliceF said:

Thanks for the information!

 

I wonder: were there not quite early traveller-guides to war cemeteries in France? Does anyone know a reference/references for such a guide to German cemeteries in France or other books like that (published in the 1920s or 30s)? I think I saw photos of German cemeteries in France that seem to origin from a book (published before WW2) on that topic (do not remember where).

 

Christine

A great source is this one from my collection: