German cemeteries in France

[CROONAERT]

Hm. If you were an Alsacien in a former life before 1919, would you class yourself as German or French?

Depends how old I was I suppose, Gwyn.

Reminds me of a friend and ex-work colleague of mine. He was Polish, very 'classically' German looking and from Gdansk. I used to entertain (myself probably) by calling him a German (even going as far as putting up the famous 'Danzig ist Deutsch' poster on his office wall), then , one day he explained that I should be very wary of calling a Polish person German due to events of WW2. So I asked him if his granddad was ever in the army. 'Yes' he said (looking very dubious). How about his Gt.Grandad? 'Yes' also (by now twigging on to what I was getting at). 'Which one?' I asked. At this he looked at his feet and muttered 'German'!

Anyway, nothing but good came from it... an invite to his family home in Gdansk, an interesting insight into his (Imperial and Nazi German) family history, and a tour of the Westerplatte (first shots of WW2), Soviet military cemetery (been to a few of these since...and to be honest, I do feel slightly out of place in these!), the Danzig Garrison Cemetery (which includes an 1870-71 French PoW memorial and a 'Russian grave' containing the remains of Russian soldiers who died in the sieges of 1734, 1807 and 1813) and some other WW1 and 2 sites in the area. A very interesting and historical area.

Dave

[AliceF]

I am looking forward to hear of any outcomes of the contact with the organizers of the exhibitions in Douvrin. Well, from this case it can surely be concluded that it is often not straight forward to locate the exact location of removed cemeteries.

It has been very interesting for me to follow the discussion on how to experience cemeteries of different nations (well my actual experience is quite limited so I cannot add much to that).
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Depends how old I was I suppose, Gwyn.

Reminds me of a friend and ex-work colleague of mine. He was Polish, very 'classically' German looking and from Gdansk. I used to entertain (myself probably) by calling him a German (even going as far as putting up the famous 'Danzig ist Deutsch' poster on his office wall), then , one day he explained that I should be very wary of calling a Polish person German due to events of WW2. So I asked him if his granddad was ever in the army. 'Yes' he said (looking very dubious). How about his Gt.Grandad? 'Yes' also (by now twigging on to what I was getting at). 'Which one?' I asked. At this he looked at his feet and muttered 'German'!

Anyway, nothing but good came from it... an invite to his family home in Gdansk, an interesting insight into his (Imperial and Nazi German) family history, and a tour of the Westerplatte (first shots of WW2), Soviet military cemetery (been to a few of these since...and to be honest, I do feel slightly out of place in these!), the Danzig Garrison Cemetery (which includes an 1870-71 French PoW memorial and a 'Russian grave' containing the remains of Russian soldiers who died in the sieges of 1734, 1807 and 1813) and some other WW1 and 2 sites in the area. A very interesting and historical area.

Dave

Most interesting Dave,

As you can see from my family list below my Fathers side were from rural Poland and most of the males ended up in the German army. I am fairly sure they were not too pleased about it.

some served in the Alsace area, based in Metz, Colmar and suchlike.

3 of them were killed, two are at rest in German war cemeteries in France, Anton is somewhere in Russia. The others were either wounded or made POW.

Jacob was with RIR61 and would have reported to regiment in Gdansk as a reservist in 1914.He was seriously wounded in the opening battles in Russia.

Those who made it through, including my Grandfather Martin, later settled in the mining towns in the North of France not too far from Douvrin. Some of the cousins remained in the Poznan region of Poland.

so when Germany invaded in 1939 it all started again for them.

That is why I keep reading these threads.

[JWK]

I am looking forward to hear of any outcomes of the contact with the organizers of the exhibitions in Douvrin. Well, from this case it can surely be concluded that it is often not straight forward to locate the exact location of removed cemeteries.

It has been very interesting for me to follow the discussion on how to experience cemeteries of different nations (well my actual experience is quite limited so I cannot add much to that).

Christine

Same here: very interesting how other people "feel" cemeteries of different nations. But guess it also has to do with what the cemetery looks like. A wind-swept CWGC cemetery in the middle of nowhere dóes feel different than a German cemetery set between 100 year old oak trees.

As regards Douvrin I think I have to call in the help of our colleague-member Hainaut, as he is from Douvrin (or surroundings). Might be a better way in than a cold call from some lunatic from the Netherlands who speaks French "like a Spanish cow" ("comme une vache espagnole")!

Too bad we don't have an aerial view of Douvrin showing the cemetery like e.g. we have for Illies (last resting place of some 200 16'ers):

cemetery in the red box top left.

Does the Volksbund CD say anything about this cemetery? Apparently it was quite the sight in its prime (if I can word it like that)

And an interesting webpage about Illies:

http://www.kriegerdenkmäler-in-lippe.de/seiten/soldatenfriedhof_illies_frankreich.htm

I'll translate it one day, but there's one part that really chills me:

A Paul Vietmeyer (from the Principality of Lippe, killed 13th april 1915) writes home to his mother about the funerals of his comrades:

Tote, auch wenn sie monatelang draußen gelegen haben, kann ich ohne Grauen sehen, aber die dumpfen Trauer-

märsche unserer Regts. - Kapelle gehen durch Mark & Bein. Achtung, präsentiert das Gewehr, & langsam sinkt wieder ein Held in die Grube...

The sight of the dead, even if they'd been lying out there for months, doesn't bother me, but the gloomy funeral marches of our Regimental band pierce my marrow and bone.

Attention! Present arms! And yet another hero is slowly lowered into his grave....

JW

[AliceF]

Yes, a very distressing letter, indeed. And Paul died less than 2 months later.

There are quite a couple of posts for Illies, 14 altogether between 1921-1930. Most of them are very short, one is a bit longer and one travel report. I will have a look at them and see what I can post. But basically the short descriptions give a picture of how the cemetery was restored (it was never in a bad condition like the one in Lens, but in 1930 everything seems to be well maintained).

Christine

[AliceF]

I checked again on Boult-sur-Suippe, no trace of this in German press – at least not in a way that I would find it.

What I found was this: http://www.inrap.fr/le-cimetiere-allemand-de-boult-sur-suippe-10845.

The soldiers mentioned at the end of the article are all, but one buried in St Etienne (in the 1920ies or last year???) and listed in the VDK database. Could not find Kreikenborn in the Verlustenliste or VDK database, but he is on this list here: http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/verlustlisten/vl_ir_78_wk1_10_komp.htm

And there I could see that 4 other soldiers were buried in Boult during war times and several have single identified graves in St Etienne. So even if some soldiers were forgotten and many remains were left in Boult, soldiers were also identified and buried in individual graves.

I jumped to conclusions…..
Christine

[JWK]

Here's the English translation of the above article (PDF file without the photos):

http://www.inrap.fr/sites/inrap.fr/files/atoms/files/pr_the_wwi_german_cemetery_of_boult-sur-suippe.pdf

And if those 8 soldiers, identified in Boult-sur-Sippe, are now buried in Saint-Étienne-à-Arnes, surely that would imply they were buried there àfter identification?

Graves at St-Etiennes-à-Arnes (Block/Grave nr.)

Otto Meyenkoth 5 / 921

Wilhelm Taute 5 / 987

Wilhelm Pattberg 5 / 1038

Johann Hermann Terborg 5 / 1044

Wilhelm Kampe 5 / 1046

Georg Werner 5 / 1047

Hermann Querl 8 / 942 (maybe a typo for 5 / 942?)

And the Kreikenborn you couldn't find is in the database as

Gustav Kreikenbom 5 / 1065

(And on the Verlustliste as Kreikenbohm)

JW

[Martin Feledziak]

Thanks for the English version of the PDF JW.

Am I right in understanding that they have found 530 burials of soldiers which were supposed to have been concentrated elsewhere but they were recently found still present in their original graves ?

or have I got it wrong ?

[roel22]

So all this happened just some weeks ago? A sort of German Fromelles, with even more casualties? Can't believe I've read nothing about it in the press (and I'm quite a reader).

Roel

[AliceF]

It seems that nearly all of the 530 Soldiers were already moved to St Etienne in the 1920ies, but that some graves with soldiers were forgotten. So what was found last year are the remains of a few soldiers, many belongings (which were not moved in the 1920ies) and bones. But I have not been able to figure out how many soldiers were still found in Boult last year. However it is strange that no hint can be found about any recent reburials in St Etienne.
Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

Here is the current Google Earth aerial view. The site can easily be identified. With an inset from the web page.

[JWK]

The French Archeology service made a documentary about their work:

http://www.700000.fr

which includes their work at Boult-sur-Suippe

Only works in the Chrome browser, all other navigateurs give an error.

Apparently it tells the lives of 5 soldiers buried in the Champagne-Ardennes region, but I can't for the life of me figure out how this snazzy interface works.

If you can get it to work it should, at some part, tell you about an "August Seelmeyer" (Fritz August Heinrich Seelmeyer, now buried Saint-Étienne-à-Arnes 5 / 945 ) who was initially buried in Boult-sur-Suippe.

(All in French ofcourse)

And the opening shot of the documentary is a fly-over of the site at Boult-sur-Suipe:

JW

[AliceF]

Thank you for the link to the film, JW! I managed to get it run for a few minutes – impressive though – even if I do not understand anything.

The 35 German soldiers, who were found near Cheppy in 2008/2009 (see post 179) and reburied there, are mentioned in the description of the cemetery on the VDK webpage. I am sure this will happen in the case with Boult as well, but it seems to take some time.

Christine

[Martin Feledziak]

A top quality web site ( I use Chrome most of the time )

I don't understand what anyone is saying either, but the concept is first class. The display of some of the artefacts is excellent and allows a 360 degree examination.

I had no idea that soldiers were buried with their personal possessions.

It is difficult to criticize the original site clearance but on first impression I would have to say it was not to a good standard.

There is also an interesting item featuring some of the "Grimsby Pals" at a separate site investigation.

[JWK]

Ah, fugured it out: It's not a contínuous documentary, it's an interáctive documentary!

Let the film run through the opening titles and the (beautiful!) aerial views of the excavations.

The voice-over says something in the region of:

"700.000 soldiers of all nationalities disappeared on the battlefields of WW1. Where are they? There is no trace of them above ground. But several centimeters below ground that's where they are. Who was he? [That's the view of a skeleton being unearthed]" etc

Then a circle with "Passer" appears lower right.

Click that, and a little map appears top right. Click that, and then you can choose your INRAP excavations, and the stories attached to it, after you click the green thingy in the middle.

I read, speak and write French much better than I can understand spoken French, but after a few re-runs I'm beginning to understand more and more. Once you've learned it you can never un-learn it I guess.

This Web Documentary was made in cooperation with TV5Monde , so hopefully it will be made into a TV documentary at some stage.

The Grimsby Pals are at Saint-Laurent-Blangy

Pierre Grenier (a French poilu) at Roclincourt

Charles Lightfoot (Artillery) at Carrière de L'Aisne

5 Germans at Massiges

and August Seelmeyer at Boult-sur-Suippe

JW

[AliceF]

Just quickly compiled a table of the soldiers of the IR 78 who were originally buried in Boult and reburied in St Etienne (included your VDK records JW). There are all buried in single graves in plot 5 or 8 (do not see any systematic way here). The soldiers mentioned as identified in the article (marked green) are all spread in between – do not seem to be recent reburials.
Christine

IR 78Boult_StEtienne.docx

[Martin Feledziak]

Here is an image of the cemetery at Saint-Étienne-à-Arnes.

It is from Street view, Google Earth.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=156&with_photo_id=66551975&order=date_desc&user=5924512

[AliceF]

Thanks for the street view of St Etienne, Martin!

Well, this morning I contacted the Spiegel-online - have done this only once before. Maybe they are interested to report about the excavations (and can answer some of the questions we had)
They have reported about similar issues often before - actually quite nearby: http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/archaeologie-deutsches-militaerlager-aus-erstem-weltkrieg-entdeckt-a-1000938.html

Christine

[JWK]

Good work! Let's hope they follow it up.

The opening sequence of that 700000 documentary shows the same excavation as the picture they used for that artcile.

Also, as regards the "blocks' the soldiers are buried in: Fritz Limbach is buried in block 4 at Lens-Sallaumines, Karl Steigleder in block 8.

So you'd sort of expect them to be on opposite ends of the cemetery, but in reality their graves are almost facing eachother!

So block 5 at Saint-Étienne-à-Ardres could very well flow over into block 8.

But let's first wait for what Angelika Franz unearths.

If she can brew beer, and "mummify chickens", she surely can get to the bottom of this!

JW

[AliceF]

JW, today I start to answer your question in post 254 on Illies:

VDK member journal on Illies (first 6 posts)

The information given about Illies can serve as a good example of what information you can find about a cemetery in the VDK member journal during the years after the war.

1921,3:
Illies near Béthune. 2.6.20: Many crosses are missing, inscriptions mostly illegible.
(„Viele Kreuze fehlen, Inschriften größtenteils unleserlich.”)

1921,9:
Illies near Lille (Nord). On the territory of the municipality there are a number of German cemeteries with several thousand graves. The restoration has been started.
(„Auf dem Gebiet der Gemeinde liegen verschiedene deutsche Kriegerfriedhöfe mit mehreren tausend Gräbern. Die Instandsetzung ist in Angriff genommen.“)

1922,9:
Illies bei Lille (Nord). The German war graves are in good condition, but several crosses have disappeared or faded inscriptions. The soldiers buried at Ferme in Halpegarde were reburied.
(„Die deutschen Kriegsgräber sind in gutem Zustande, aber verschiedene Grabkreuze sind verschwunden oder die Inschriften verblichen. Die bei der Ferme de Halpegarde bestatteten Gefallenen sind umgebettet worden.“)

1923,2:
„Illies bei Lille (Nord). The war graves are maintained, but the inscriptions of the crosses have faded.
(„Die Kriegsgräber werden instandgehalten, aber die Kreuzaufschriften verblassen.“)

1925,6:
Illies (Nord). Wreaths and flowers can be laid down. [Which probably means they can be ordered to be laid down].
(„Es können Kränze und Blumen niedergelegt werden.“)

1925, 7:
Illies (Nord). The cemetery is surrounded by a hedge and is well-maintained. Wreaths can be ordere and photos made.
(„Der Friedhof ist von einer Hecke umgeben und wird gut instand gehalten. Es können Kränze niedergelegt und Fotos angefertigt werden.“)

Illies is situated about 7 km North of Douvrin. But the cemetery was not removed as the one in Douvrin and today there are about 2900 soldiers buried in Illies. Photos from WW1 times can be found here http://www.kriegerdenkmäler-in-lippe.de/seiten/soldatenfriedhof_illies_frankreich.htm(posted by JW in post 254). Photos of the cemetery today can be found within this Forum here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=170389

Christine

[JWK]

Inretesting to see that this "Wreath laying service" and "Grave picture service" the Volksbund offers now already existed 90 years ago!

(When your relative is buried in a cemetery somewhere deep in Russia e.g, and you are unable to visit, you pay the Volksbund a token amount, and they arrange that flowers are laid at the grave)

Can't quite find the Ferme de Halpegarde but it *could* be Hameau de l'Halbegarbe, NW of Illies. there's a farm there.

The Bing map makers didn't know what to call it either: the road they named l'Halpegarbe, the Hameau itself ("hamlet") l'Halpegarde...

The area opposite the farm seems to be surrounded by obstacles on the trench map. Why would that have been? Cemetery perhaps?

[CROONAERT]

Can't quite find the Ferme de Halpegarde but it *could* be Hameau de l'Halbegarbe, NW of Illies. there's a farm there.

The Bing map makers didn't know what to call it either: the road they named l'Halpegarbe, the Hameau itself ("hamlet") l'Halpegarde...

The area opposite the farm seems to be surrounded by obstacles on the trench map. Why would that have been? Cemetery perhaps?

German trench map time again!

This German map from March 1918 appears to illustrate a cemetery at Halpegarbe that no longer exists. Interestingly, it also seems to only appear on British trench-maps from December 1917 onwards...

Dave

[AliceF]

Sorry, my transcription mistake. It should be "Ferme de Halpegarbe" with b.
Great that you already could locate it!
Christine

[AliceF]

A photo from Halpegarbe

Source: http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-memoire-necropoles-MPLF-MDH/necropole-sujet_676_1.htm

The site shows two other photos aswell (Illies and Halpegarbe)

Christine

VDK 1926,2:
“Illies ( Nord). The German cemetery in Illies is enclosed by a wall with brick pillars, which are partly destroyed, and with a hedge behind it. It is accessed through a high iron gate. There are 2676 individual graves and an ossuary with 55 unidentified bodies. The beds are framed with strip iron [?] and boxwood and richly planted with trees and shrubs.
Individual graves, which are arranged in round beds, have in the middle a larger memorial stone. The graves are marked by wooden crosses or small headstones with inscription plates. A small memorial hall and the memorial in honour of the Pion. Batl. No. 2 have been damaged by shells."

(„Der von den Deutschen angelegte Friedhof in Illies ist von der Straße durch eine Mauer mit Backsteinpfeilern, die zum Teil zerstört sind und dahinter gelegene Hecke abgeschlossen und wird durch ein hohes eisernes Tor betreten. Er birgt 2676 Einzelgräber und ein Ossuaire mit 55 unbekannten Leichen. Die Beete sind mit Bandeisen (?) und Buchsbaum eingefasst und mit Bäumen und Sträuchern reich geschmückt.
Auf Rondellen angeordnete Einzelgräber tragen in der Mitte einen größeren Gedenkstein. Die Gräber sind durch Holzkreuze oder auf Sockelsteinen schräg liegende Inschriftenplatten kenntlich gemacht. Eine kleine Gedächtnishalle und das Ehrendenkmal des Pion. Batl. Nr. 2 sind durch Geschosse beschädigt.“)

I attach a photo showing the small headstones

Christine

Source http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,358949710,var,Carte-Postale-Illies-Cimetiere-Militaire-Allemand,language,E.html

[AliceF]

I continue on Illies:

"Illies (Nord), 13.5 kilometers east-northeast Béthune. Patron: union of the former 55er, Detmold.
The German cemetery is located near the village, about 200 meters away from the train station. Here 2862 German soldiers are buried in 2443 graves. The caretaker has planted primroses on almost all grave mounds; the borders of the grave beds are edged with cloves. High deciduous trees, firs and shrubs decorate the cemetery, which has recently been thoroughly cleaned at the patron’s instigation; hereby also the paths were sown with grass. Most of the tombs are decorated with wooden crosses; the inscriptions of the head stones, which were already established during the war, begin to weather. In the middle of a round grass lawn there is a simple memorial stone in the form of four-sided column on a pedestal. The enclosure consists of a low stone wall with an iron gate, which is hidden by a tall hedge behind it. Later this summer, the VDK will build a new gate sponsored by the patron.

Illies comprises reburials from the following places :

Armentières (Cité Bonjean), 12 km WNW Lille
Aubers, 8.5 km SE Estaires
Bailleul (Ferme du Berthof [?]), 28,5 km NW Lille [b: Bailleul communal cemetery and extension]
La Bassée, 11 km E Béthune
Doulieu (Le Verrier), 3.5 km N Estraires
Erquinghem-s./la Lys, 2 km W Armentieres [b: Erquinghem-Lys churchyard extension]
Haubourdin, 4.5 km WSW Lille
Meteren, 3 km W Bailleul
Wicres, 13 km WSW Lille.“

VDK 1930, 8

Christine

Illies_German_1930_8.docx