German cemeteries in France

[AliceF]

This is a part of the travel description that I have already mentioned in post #99 (same writer). That time it was about Maissemy, now it is about Quesnoy:

“The next morning we went to Lille to visit the cemetery in Quesnoy. After about one hour tram ride we arrived. After only a few questions [asking for the direction] we stood at the gate of the cemetery, which our local [VDK] group in Chemnitz is patron for.
The first impression we had of the cemetery was depressing. Paths were not recognisable, weeds wherever we looked. At the cemetery, three children of the caretaker were working. The little girl told us that her father has been ill for over seven months and could only work little. Quite bad was also the state of the crosses which were slanting and were partly broken.

(Note from the editors: The patron has already drawn our attention to the unsatisfactory condition of the cemetery. So far nobody has complained about the illness of the caretaker. A plan for the cemetery is in work, so for next year restoration can be expected. The maintenance of the grave markers, which also we have turned our attention to, is the responsibility of the French government [)].

In the nearby nursery we bought plants and a wreath to decorate our dear grave. After fulfilling this duty, we left the cemetery to go to St Quentin the same evening.”
VDK, 1930, 10

When I read this type of descriptions I have also often thought about the men, who worked on these German cemeteries after the war. It is very often stated that they are war invalids, who take care of the cemeteries. In many cemeteries they seemed to have done very good work (often cemeteries were describe as free of weeds a couple of years after the war, when things got more organized). The living conditions for these men and their families must have been hard and the homes are a couple of times described as very poor.

Christine

Quesnoy_German_3.docx

[ejwalshe]

Over at CEFSG, we have the following thread on the Hallu Eight: http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=12382

This case is still open at the Department of National Defense in Canada.

Information was provided to me by the great-niece of Lt Clifford Abram Neelands, reinterred at Caix British Cemetery in April 2015, which indicates the location where these men were discovered by Fabien Demeusere, was a German Cemetery, improvised on 12 Aug 1918 and contains at least another five bodies (perhaps up to another twenty-seven).

This is my second request at this forum (first in this thread) to seek assistance in finding collaborating evidence on the German side - perhaps a unit diary, or even a personal diary mentioning how the German Alpine Korps was involved in the burial of these Canadians, and perhaps other German soldiers.

The site was once known by the London War Graves office, as the location was given to Herbert Hunter, the family member who had visited Lt Neelands' grave in 1919.

I assume the grave markers were destroyed when families returned to the area in late 1919 or 1920, as the crosses were written in German.

If you happen to ever run across any information mentioning these burials on 12 Aug 1918, please contact me.

Thank you for your time and assistance - Ted

[AliceF]

Hi Ted,

The only thing I can come up with right now is the information that the German soldiers, who were buried in or around Hallu (could be any location not necessarily the same place were the Canadians were buried) were moved (by French authorities) between 1920 and October 1922 to Roye. In Roye there is a German war cemetery which was established by French authorities in 1920. Source of the information that remains from German soldiers were reburied there is from the member journal of the Volksbund from October 1922 (10) and 1923 (1). But of course one can not be sure that all graves were found.

Do you have an aerial photo with the exact location where the Canadian soldiers were found - I would be interested.

But I am sure there will be more information that can be found - at least regarding German units involved those days in Hallu.

Christine

[ejwalshe]

Hi Christine

Thanks for the valuable information.

On page three of our post at CEFSG, you can find a trench map overlay of Hallu: http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=12382

You'll notice a communication trench running back from Dean's Trench, and the men were found at McMaster Map 66D.A.28.a.6.9, inside this communication trench (why dig a whole when one is already available is the common consideration of burial parties at the time).

This same communication trench runs through two adjoining properties, and Fabien (who discovered the bodies) agreed the men will be found on either or both properties - I met and spoke with Fabien last year in Saint-Avold.

The lead investigator at the time, Laurel Clegg, had agreed Fabien had did a meticulous and thorough job of excavating his property.

If someone had come looking at this specific location in 1920, I am afraid it was too late - I know men were exhumed only 20-30 yards from this location in 1920, and obviously any markings of those graves at this specific location were no longer in existence at the time, or else they would have been recovered then.

Thanks again for your help, Ted

[AOK4]

Hello,

Normally, if this was an official German cemetery, a copy of the register and plans would have been given to the allies in 1919-1920. However, in the chaos of August 1918, the Germans weren't always able to put crosses yet on the graves, just numbered wooden pieces which referred to the graves list (due to the same reason, these weren't always up-to-date completely in August 1918).

As far as I know, these lists were handed back to the Germans when they were given back the care over their cemeteries in France in the 1960's. Where they are now, I don't know, possibly in Kassel (Volksbund HQ). It may be very difficult to see the tough...

Jan

[AliceF]

Jan,

do you know which unit is meant here with German Alpine korps?
This one here http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Alpenkorps_(WK1)(at least there was an involvement of this division around Roye at that time)? But which units?

Ted, as I understood form the website the exact location was not revealed, but I post here the trench map and as I understood it is about the SE corner of Hallu in focus (Source of the map and info here (http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=12382&start=15, on page 2 of that thread).

Christine

[CROONAERT]

Ted... I don't know whether or not it's of any assistance, but the approximate location mentioned on the CEFSG thread and as illustrated on the trench maps seems to actually be the site of an aid station. On some French trench maps dating back as far as November 1916, there is a rectangular feature not shown on British trench maps marked up as 'P.S.' (poste de secours). I have one particular trench map with an intelligence overlay that gives more detail... 'Gr.P.S. tres profonds, contenance 1 Cie.' (Very large/deep aid station, capacity 1 company). We can safely assume, therefore, that this aid station had a capacity for approximately 200 to 250 men...I wonder whether it had it's own cemetery in the vicinity too?

Dave.

[ejwalshe]

Thanks for posting the map, Alice.

To be even more precise, the exact location is 66D.A.28.a.60.95, precisely in the communication trench in Fabien's backyard - that's the lower square, second from the right. Fabien pointed to either side of the location and told me the trench runs into two different properties adjoining his. I

I'd love to see the map you are referring to, Dave. However, I know the structure you refer to would not have been standing on 12 Aug 1918, as the only building left standing in the town at the time was the tiny chapel (which exists today!) at approximately 66D.A.22.c.3.3, on the northern side of the road, just under the "1" in "B.M. 84-1". Got this information from Fabien Demeusere.

Oh, and thanks to Fritz for narrowing down the unit involved: Infanterie-Leib-Regiment (Bavarians).

[AliceF]

Hi Ted,

Ok, it is the Infanterie-Leib-Regiment (Bavarians) that you are interested in tin his context.

A German forum has discussed this unit in a slightly different context around the same time, but I do not really get the point or conclusion here, but I just post it as info here (hope google translate is understandable). But it does not give an answer to your question: http://www.milex.de/forum/westfrontShow.php?messageNummer=1072033048

While here is somebody (at this forum) with access to the units regimental history and offering help (some ten years ago – maybe still valid?!) : http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46288

Christine

[ejwalshe]

Hi Christine

 

Thanks for your help again, that first post translated fairly well, and teased me once again with some information, but not the details I was looking for.

 

Sorry for the not-so-prompt reply - my alert did not work, or I just plain forgot to check this post again.

 

And sorry again for calling you "Alice".

 

I very much appreciate your research on my behalf.

 

All the best, Ted

[PascalMallet]

Bonjour Christine,

As a brand new subsriber to that website, I read all 14 very interesting pages of your thread (yesterday as I was still a guest). Great job you did, as well as the other members who posted here!

 

Here is my story. I'm French and in November 2014, I went to North of France and Belgium (Ypres) as my grand-father, Ernest Chaumény, died there 100 years ago. He was reported missing on his regiment diary (French are all online for free), and that has been told to my mother when she tried to know where he was resting: no known grave!

But, by great chance, I eventually found another (and true) story. I wrote it and translated it in English, so I can post it here if you like. It was during the First battle of Ypres (Oct-Nov 1914) and my grand-father was wounded at his head, maybe remained few days on battle field, then was taken by Germans to their Feldlazarett (field hospital) in Comines (59), where he died, and was buried with few fellows (including one English for whom I will soon open a new thread here) together with German soldiers. That was in Comines (that city is shared between Belgium and France). The lazarett where he died was in Belgium and the cemetery was in France. Though I now know a lot about that place, I would like to know what have you got about from the VDK? In the 1920's, mass graves where moved once (they identified 3 French), and in 1960 (about), all bodies have been moved to St-Laurent-Blangy, near Arras (62). French administration knew about but had "forgotten". I eventually went there and put flowers close to my grand-father's name (see pictures), amongst a lot of names by alphabetical order (about 20 French and one English are resting there).

 

That was possible with the great help and friendship of a German guy, Lars Michelsen, who manage a webside about WW1 Feldlazarett, and who found my grand-father's file at the Red Cross website! I never thought to check there but, as he has been a prisoner before to die, he got his name and details about his death there! That is also a hint I want to give to all the people searching for a missing soldier: "missing" can also mean "prisoner before dying".

 

Of course, I took pictures of the places I visited, and I will post them here if someone is interested.

 

Pascal

 

PS: Sorry but I can't upload any file, as they say it's too big (but it's not). Any solution?

[PascalMallet]

Hello again Christine,

 

I would like to reply to post #57 (Roel22, Dec. 2015), maybe I don't use the good way.

 

My grand-father's regiment was fighting in Vierstraat before he was reported missing (see my previous post). That place is few km only from Comines (Komen) where Germans had their hospitals and cemeteries (Comines and Vervick-Sud), so that's other places to check.

 

Short information: Adolf Hitler fought there in 1918. He was wounded and staid in a field hospital in Verwick (a castle) until the end of the war. What would we give to see his name on a cross nearby?

 

Pascal

[AOK4]

Pascal,

 

Could you give some more information (name, unit)? I have, many years ago, co-written a book about Bayernwald near Vierstraat (my research was focussing on the fighting there, so I have quite a bit about it from both sides). I am also working on German hospitals (and medical units) on the Flanders front so I may be able to give some extra information...

 

Adolf Hitler was indeed wounded in Wervicq-Sud in 1918, but at that point the castle wasn't a hospital any more as it was right on the frontline! He was evacuated to Oudenaarde instead (it's one of those stories that are always told incorrectly).

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

Jan,

 

Thank you for your reply and to correct that tale about Hitler. That's what they say in many websites.

 

I have been to Bayernwald too but can't enter the trenches place as you have to buy tickets kilometers away, but it was too late. I was not the only one to be disappointed...

 

My grand-father was Ernest Chaumény (recorded as Ernst on VDK website, as he is resting in a German cemetery), serving in 160th Régiment d'Infanterie. The places indicated in his regiment's diary were: Vierstraat, Voormezele, St-Eloi, Elkof farm. His company first had to keep the Ypres-Comines canal doors. Then there was a great fight on Nov. 10th, 11th and 12th when he was wounded and recorded as missing.

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

13 minutes ago, PascalMallet said:

Jan,

 

Thank you for your reply and to correct that tale about Hitler. That's what they say in many websites.

 

I have been to Bayernwald too but can't enter the trenches place as you have to buy tickets kilometers away, but it was too late. I was not the only one to be disappointed...

 

My grand-father was Ernest Chaumény (recorded as Ernst on VDK website, as he is resting in a German cemetery), serving in 160th Régiment d'Infanterie. The places indicated in his regiment's diary were: Vierstraat, Voormezele, St-Eloi, Elkof farm. His company first had to keep the Ypres-Comines canal doors. Then there was a great fight on Nov. 10th, 11th and 12th when he was wounded and recorded as missing.

 

Pascal

 

I am not sure we should continue to speak in that topic as it is Christine's and dedicated to German cemeteries.

Maybe it would be better that you send me a private message. But you are more experienced than me, so do the best.

Pascal

[AliceF]

Hi Pascal,

 

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your story! Please, continue here, if you want to. We sometimes jump over the boarder to Belgium in this thread, no problem for me.

 

I would very much like to see any photos. What I do (probably there are better ways): I import now my photos into powerpoint and save there as picture in JPEG format, often there are then below 250 kb. If not I compress them (in powerpoint in the pictue tool box), but I am sure others can  point out easier ways to be able to upload pictures.

 

I am sure Jan can help further in the case you can provide more details.

 

I know how exciting it is to search for the grave of relatives. I searched for my great grandfather Gustav Gehrt and got help at this Forum to find the cemetery, where he was buried. He died in a German field hospital as well  (but not as prisoner – he was a German soldier).

 

Christine

[AliceF]

Ted,

No problem with Alice (my grandmother’s name, daughter of Gustav Gehrt, who died 1918 in WW1; you are not the first one. I am not sure anymore what I thought, when using a username not identical with name – but now I leave it like it is).

 

Well, I saw that you got quite some help at this Forum in another thread for your case:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46288-german-unit-histories/&page=6

Quite many details revealed! That’s quite some progress, isn’t it? Great!

 

Well, I repost here your photo from maybe Hallu from your other Forum (source: http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=12382&start=45).

Were you able to identify any details (names, nationalities of the buried)? Otherwise can anyone else?

 

Christine

[PascalMallet]

2 hours ago, AliceF said:

Hi Pascal,

 

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your story! Please, continue here, if you want to. We sometimes jump over the boarder to Belgium in this thread, no problem for me.

 

I would very much like to see any photos. What I do (probably there are better ways): I import now my photos into powerpoint and save there as picture in JPEG format, often there are then below 250 kb. If not I compress them (in powerpoint in the pictue tool box), but I am sure others can  point out easier ways to be able to upload pictures.

 

I am sure Jan can help further in the case you can provide more details.

 

I know how exciting it is to search for the grave of relatives. I searched for my great grandfather Gustav Gehrt and got help at this Forum to find the cemetery, where he was buried. He died in a German field hospital as well  (but not as prisoner – he was a German soldier).

 

Christine

Thanks for your reply Christine, but you don't tell me what you got from VDK about Comines cemetery (France).

 

I have been many times to Sweden and I still got friends in Ljungby and Lund. Wonderful country, I think. I read some posts here about difference between cemeteries. Comparing civilian cemeteries, I like the Scandinavian the best: trees, grass, no heavy tombstones like in France. A most different way to live with the deads. German military are made this way and, in I felt comfortable to know my grand-father is resting there.

 

About picture size, I have done nothing and not it works... Here is the picture of the plate where my grand-father's name is.

 

Pascal

 

[AliceF]

Pascal,

I found 6 entries for Comines in the VDK member journal:

• One very short note on a memorial that needs repair from 1925

• One short description from 1926,1927 and 1928 (one for each year)

• A bit longer description from 1931

• And a short travel report from 1928

I read quickly through all of it, but found no mentioning about French burials at all.

About the move of all graves from Comines to St Laurent Blangy (Comines was closed in 1956), I could only read on the VDK webpage, but not in the VDK member journals (at least not under Comines - maybe there is more for St Laurent Blangy).

If you are interested to read the texts in German, I can post them here. Otherwise I could try to translate some of it (I have just not so much time at the moment for this – you know Swedish summers are short – has to be made the most out of it). Yes, living in Sweden is fine (did so the last 20 years). I really think I got into all of this, when I heard my Swedish colleagues talk about their relatives buried in family graves for generations somewhere in the countryside. And I thought I hardly know the burial place of any of my relatives…..That is the difference when living 200 years or so in peacetime – or almost in peacetime at least.

Christine

P.S. The name is now corrected in the VDK database (Ernest)

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=12c7a44944199f74841b77d4ca11b207&cHash=c30cc79f9935b92032df4b290cf3060b

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

The cemetery of Comines (France) was moved to St. Laurent Blangy as the cemetery was located on the civil cemetery (the central German monument is still there) and the commune needed more space for its graves. At that point the German cemeteries in France were still under French care (as was pointed out in the Versailles Treaty), so the French decided to move the graves to St. Laurent Blangy as there was some space left there (the forest in the back where the caretaker used to live).

 

The original registers of Comines (France) should be in Kassel as they were in the VDK office of Perenchies until a few years ago. Whether there is any more information there about your relative is questionable. For French or British dead, there's usually not a lot of extra information apart from the name and unit.

 

About your relative: it was not uncommon that the many dead of 1st Ypres were buried in mass graves (even Germans and allied soldiers together) as there were plenty of dead to be buried. Although single graves were preferred, it wasn't always possible to bury everyone separately.

 

Shortly after WWI, the French were in charge of also the German war graves in France. They started to concentrate the German graves and tried to move French and British burials away from the German cemeteries (also because the French families were granted the right to have their fallen relatives repatriated to a cemetery of their choice) . In the case of mass graves, it was not always possible to find out who was who, so these graves had to be left as they were.

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

11 minutes ago, AliceF said:

Pascal,

I found 6 entries for Comines in the VDK member journal:

• One very short note on a memorial that needs repair from 1925

• One short description from 1926,1927 and 1928 (one for each year)

• A bit longer description from 1931

• And a short travel report from 1928

I read quickly through all of it, but found no mentioning about French burials at all.

About the move of all graves from Comines to St Laurent Blangy (Comines was closed in 1956), I could only read on the VDK webpage, but not in the VDK member journals (at least not under Comines - maybe there is more for St Laurent Blangy).

If you are interested to read the texts in German, I can post them here. Otherwise I could try to translate some of it (I have just not so much time at the moment for this – you know Swedish summers are short – has to be made the most out of it). Yes, living in Sweden is fine (did so the last 20 years). I really think I got into all of this, when I heard my Swedish colleagues talk about their relatives buried in family graves for generations somewhere in the countryside. And I thought I hardly know the burial place of any of my relatives…..That is the difference when living 200 years or so in peacetime – or almost in peacetime at least.

Christine

P.S. The name is now corrected in the VDK database (Ernest)

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=12c7a44944199f74841b77d4ca11b207&cHash=c30cc79f9935b92032df4b290cf3060b

Christine,

 

I understand you got a lot to do, just send me the articles in German. I read it a little and can use Google to translate. I post the story I wrote (in English) about Comines cemetery, you can see how it was and how more than 4,000 bodies where "stored" in an industrial building for years...

 

Fantastic link to VDK website. I was there and was in touch with them too but didn't know they changed his first name (Franz is not his name and means French). Much faster than French administration for its own guys, as nothing is done yet for the soldiers I found!... I now will check for other soldiers I know there.

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

Once again, I can't post a file, but I think I know why: it was first over 240kb and was refused. Then I down it to 56kb and it still doesn't work. I had to go out the website and now it works!

 

German military cemetery in Comines.pdf

[PascalMallet]

29 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Hello,

 

The cemetery of Comines (France) was moved to St. Laurent Blangy as the cemetery was located on the civil cemetery (the central German monument is still there) and the commune needed more space for its graves. At that point the German cemeteries in France were still under French care (as was pointed out in the Versailles Treaty), so the French decided to move the graves to St. Laurent Blangy as there was some space left there (the forest in the back where the caretaker used to live).

 

The original registers of Comines (France) should be in Kassel as they were in the VDK office of Perenchies until a few years ago. Whether there is any more information there about your relative is questionable. For French or British dead, there's usually not a lot of extra information apart from the name and unit.

 

About your relative: it was not uncommon that the many dead of 1st Ypres were buried in mass graves (even Germans and allied soldiers together) as there were plenty of dead to be buried. Although single graves were preferred, it wasn't always possible to bury everyone separately.

 

Shortly after WWI, the French were in charge of also the German war graves in France. They started to concentrate the German graves and tried to move French and British burials away from the German cemeteries (also because the French families were granted the right to have their fallen relatives repatriated to a cemetery of their choice) . In the case of mass graves, it was not always possible to find out who was who, so these graves had to be left as they were.

 

Jan

Thanks Jan, for the information you got. I just posted to Christine the booklet I have done about that peculiar cemetery. I think I won't get nothing more about my grand-father. But VDK add some information under his name, Christine said. I must say they made a better job than French, that I push and push again so the burial place of those 20 is indicated on their website. "No known date for updating!..."

 

My purpose here was more to tell that missing privates sometimes died as POW, and I posted something about two English I found in Comines.

 

Pascal

[AliceF]

Pascal,

 

I read your text with great interest. It was a sad story - the move of bodies from Comines to St. Laurent - how it was done. For a relative this must be very upsetting.

I'll post the text from VDK in four posts - each about 250kb. I typed off the first two entries, because readability was bad, but as PDF it is no help for you so therefore here:

 

1925, 4-5

"Comines. Deutscher Friedhof. Der eine Pfeiler des auf vier Pfeilern ruhenden Friedhofsdenkmals ist zerschossen. Das Denkmal senkt sich deshalb an der schadhaften Stelle. Es soll aus Ziegensteinen und Zement bestehen. Die Möglichkeit der Wiederinstandsetzung wird von den Franzosen bezweifelt. Irgendetwas muss geschehen."

1926,2

"Comines (Nord). Der Friedhof in franz. Comines, der durch ein zerschossenes Tor zwischen Backsteinpfeilern von der Straße aus betreten wird, beherbergt 2631 Leichen in Einzelgräbern und 1334 Unbekannte in einem Ossuaire. Von einem breiten, von Taxushecken eingeschlossenen Mittelweg erblickt man im ersten Drittel an der westlichen und östlichen Einfriedung je ein Regimentsdenkmal. Weiterschreitend gewahrt man an einem größeren freien Platz zur Rechten eine zerschossene Kapelle und zur Linken ein ebenfalls durch Geschosse schwer beschädigtes, wuchtiges Ehrendenkmal. Wegen der Instandsetzung schweben Verhandlungen. Im Übrigen gewährt der gut erhaltene Friedhof mit seinen prachtvollen Strauch- und Baumgruppen ein stimmungsvolles Bild eines deutschen Gottesackers."

 

Christine

 

Comines_1.pdf

The next. C.

Comines_2a.pdf

[AliceF]

Comines_2b.pdf

Comines_3.pdf