CROONAERT Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 22 hours ago, AliceF said: Thanks for the information! I wonder: were there not quite early traveller-guides to war cemeteries in France? Does anyone know a reference/references for such a guide to German cemeteries in France or other books like that (published in the 1920s or 30s)? I think I saw photos of German cemeteries in France that seem to origin from a book (published before WW2) on that topic (do not remember where). Christine Not pre-WW2, but in the 1980's, the VdK published a set of wonderful atlases detailing German cemeteries in Western Europe, in France and Benelux, in West Germany and worldwide. The France & Benelux edition was particularly detailed utilising Michelin road maps (my copy was, perhaps, one of the most utilised books in my collection!). Detailing the German cemeteries of 1870-71, WW1 and WW2, it also , with colour codes for easy viewing, marked the locations of military cemeteries of other nations... Here's an example page... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 In 1936, they also produced a series of maps that had a tracing paper overlay showing the cemetery locations. This is an example from the Northern France and Belgium map... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 (edited) An information sheet regarding the cemeteries also came with the maps, but I haven't scanned that! Edited 3 January , 2017 by CROONAERT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 The map with overlay comes from Andrees Handatlas. It is one of the maps in the atlas published in the 1930's by this company and is not published by the Volksbund. The most well-known guide is the "Deutsche Kriegsgräberstätten im ehemaligen französischen Kampfgebiet - Karten und Handbuch" which lists all German cemeteries on the fromer front line in France, as of 1931. The Volksbund worked on a similar publication for Belgium but this was never finished or published. A publisher's copy (in the archives of the VDK) exists though, which I use a lot for my publications. There are then several books and brochures already published during the war about one cemetery (f.i. Le Sourd Colonfay, ...) or cemeteries within a certain area (f. i. Belgian Luxemburg, Charleroi, Namur, ...). These sometimes contain lists of all burials. Brochures were also made for the inauguration of cemeteries (f.i. Praetbosch, Beverloo, Mechelen, St. Symphorien, ...). I have quite a few of these in original or as copies. After the war veteran's associations published sometimes travel guides or reports of visits. Mangels is a well-known example. His brochures about Flanders (RIR 215 - 46. Reservedivision) are very good and interesting. Most of the things can still be found in German secondhand bookshops or on ebay etc. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 51 minutes ago, CROONAERT said: Detailing the German cemeteries of 1870-71, WW1 and WW2, it also , with colour codes for easy viewing, marked the locations of military cemeteries of other nations... Dave, does your source indicate burials at Servon Melzicourt from 1870, I noticed some old stones on site which looked pre-WW1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 4 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2017 Thanks a lot everyone for your answers with literature references and maps (did not know there were such)! Here a part from a travel report on Wervick from 1928 (regarding your question, Pascal). In 1921 it was mentioned that the cemetery was destroyed during the war (due to combat). “Visit to the cemeteries of Wervick-Nord (Belgium) and French Comines "[...] The cemetery of Wervick is situated on the right side of the road to Comines (rue de Comines), about 20 minutes from the railway station. - It is the old community cemetery to which the soldiers’ graves have been added to the right and the left. There are only a few German graves left within the actual community cemetery. On the request of the municipality these are supposed to be transferred to the part designated as "Military Cemetery". However, these tombs can be purchased from the municipality. The price according to today's rate is 375 Frs. = 45RM. The cemetery has not yet been restored, but the preparatory work has already been made. Plants, roses, shrubs, etc., which will be used, have already been arrived [??? or planted?] at the cemetery, and the site has been dug up once. – On all graves there are the same low wooden crosses, some without or with mutilated [? = not readable, letters missing] names, but each grave is numbered. […] Dr. H.K. Herchen a.d. Sieg“ Volksbund 1928,8 So if I got this right, some of the graves were moved twice, once within the cemetery and then later to Menen. Christine Source of the photo: https://www.delcampe.net/en_GB/collectables/postcards/belgium-wervik/wervik-belgique-carte-photo-cimetiere-guerre-14-18-wervik-het-kerkhof-397426780.html Wervick_Nord_German.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 4 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2017 The novel that Pascal mentioned in #398 (Au revoir là-haut, by Pierre Lemaitre, 2013) is translated to German: Wir sehen uns dort oben, Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 2014. But not to English? Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 4 January , 2017 Share Posted 4 January , 2017 2 hours ago, AliceF said: "[...] The cemetery of Wervick is situated on the right side of the road to Comines (rue de Comines), about 20 minutes from the railway station. - It is the old community cemetery to which the soldiers’ graves have been added to the right and the left. There are only a few German graves left within the actual community cemetery. On the request of the municipality these are supposed to be transferred to the part designated as "Military Cemetery". However, these tombs can be purchased from the municipality. The price according to today's rate is 375 Frs. = 45RM. The cemetery has not yet been restored, but the preparatory work has already been made. Plants, roses, shrubs, etc., which will be used, have already been arrived [??? or planted?] at the cemetery, and the site has been dug up once. – On all graves there are the same low wooden crosses, some without or with mutilated [? = not readable, letters missing] names, but each grave is numbered. […] Dr. H.K. Herchen a.d. Sieg“ Interestingly, there is still one German grave in Wervik left (which the family had bought at that time) from Leutnant Kühne. Another German grave, that of Hermann Borchert, was also bought by the family, but they decided to have the grave moved to the military cemetery a bit later. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 17 hours ago, AliceF said: The novel that Pascal mentioned in #398 (Au revoir là-haut, by Pierre Lemaitre, 2013) is translated to German: Wir sehen uns dort oben, Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart 2014. But not to English? Christine Thanks Pascal and Christine. Just bought the book!!!!! Gekauft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 1 hour ago, egbert said: Thanks Pascal and Christine. Just bought the book!!!!! Gekauft! it is EXCELLENT, in every respect ! A film is in the making (but I think it can't be as good as the book). A must read, too : R. Dorgelès (author of the famous LES CROIX DE BOIS) : LE REVEIL DES MORTS - as far as I can remember, P. Lemaître took many informations from that book kind regards from the Somme, martine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 5 hours ago, mva said: it is EXCELLENT, in every respect ! A film is in the making (but I think it can't be as good as the book). A must read, too : R. Dorgelès (author of the famous LES CROIX DE BOIS) : LE REVEIL DES MORTS - as far as I can remember, P. Lemaître took many informations from that book kind regards from the Somme, martine The movie you speak about will issue in Oct. 2017. If he mentions Dorgelès, Genevoix, Remarque, Sweig, etc. Pierre Lemaitre found the scandal he speaks about in universitary work by Béatrix Pau in 2004, now published ("Le Ballet des Morts", La Librairie Vuibert, 2016) but not yet translated. Pierre Lemaitre's book has been translated in USA and in England. English title is "The Great Swindle", what is not so nice than genuine title. See: https://www.ft.com/content/8548bcde-9529-11e5-8389-7c9ccf83dceb Sorry Chrisitne, I call the publisher and there is no Swedish translation yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 On 03/01/2017 at 12:39, AliceF said: The Volksbund CD covers many countries also Belgium. There are about 30 files (can usually range from one sentence to several paragraphs) about Wervik and about 10 on Comines). Anything particular you are interested in? Both cemeteries are also described in Jan's book on Menen Wald. I attach a photo from July 1921 from Wervicq-Nord (source: Volksbund, 1921, issue11) Christine Thanks for that picture, Christine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 5 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2017 Ordered the book at amazon.de (will arrive in 10 days). Sorry not to be able to use the link of the Forum (is only for UK). German is fine (my native language). Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 On 04/01/2017 at 16:34, AliceF said: Here a part from a travel report on Wervick from 1928 (regarding your question, Pascal). In 1921 it was mentioned that the cemetery was destroyed during the war (due to combat). “Visit to the cemeteries of Wervick-Nord (Belgium) and French Comines "[...] The cemetery of Wervick is situated on the right side of the road to Comines (rue de Comines), about 20 minutes from the railway station. - It is the old community cemetery to which the soldiers’ graves have been added to the right and the left. There are only a few German graves left within the actual community cemetery. On the request of the municipality these are supposed to be transferred to the part designated as "Military Cemetery". However, these tombs can be purchased from the municipality. The price according to today's rate is 375 Frs. = 45RM. The cemetery has not yet been restored, but the preparatory work has already been made. Plants, roses, shrubs, etc., which will be used, have already been arrived [??? or planted?] at the cemetery, and the site has been dug up once. – On all graves there are the same low wooden crosses, some without or with mutilated [? = not readable, letters missing] names, but each grave is numbered. […] Dr. H.K. Herchen a.d. Sieg“ Volksbund 1928,8 So if I got this right, some of the graves were moved twice, once within the cemetery and then later to Menen. Christine Thanks again for your message and for your translation. If I understand well, "Gemeinde" could mean "religious communauty". So they speak about that small cemetery in the garden of Sisters d'Orléans convent (Feldlazarett n°11), standing rue de Wervik in Comines (same as rue de Comines in Wervik...) There were (only...) 86 tombs, so the picture is probably another place in Wervik. There were 3 English, and probably one was moved in Comines (France) I don't know when or why. This place no longer exists 1. because of bombing 2. because that convent was completely destroyed later on to open a new street, named rue d'Orléans after those Sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 8 hours ago, egbert said: Thanks Pascal and Christine. Just bought the book!!!!! Gekauft! I hope that you will be as breathtaken as me all along these 600 pages, Egbert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, PascalMallet said: So if I got this right, some of the graves were moved twice, once within the cemetery and then later to Menen. Christine Thanks again for your message and for your translation. If I understand well, "Gemeinde" could mean "religious communauty". So they speak about that small cemetery in the garden of Sisters d'Orléans convent (Feldlazarett n°11), standing rue de Wervik in Comines (same as rue de Comines in Wervik...) There were (only...) 86 tombs, so the picture is probably another place in Wervik. There were 3 English, and probably one was moved in Comines (France) I don't know when or why. This place no longer exists 1. because of bombing 2. because that convent was completely destroyed later on to open a new street, named rue d'Orléans after those Sisters. Hello, Most of the graves there were indeed moved twice, once concentrated to the German cemetery which was next to the civilian cemetery and around 1955 to Menen. The text speaks about the German cemetery in Wervik, rue de Comines, which is where nowadays is still the civilian cemetery. The picture shows this cemetery as well. The 87 German graves from Rue de Wervicq in Comines were moved to Wervik as well, at some point before 1929. The 3 British graves were moved to Bedford House Cemetery. (see my book about Menen Wald, p. 191-197.) Jan Edited 5 January , 2017 by AOK4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDT006 Posted 5 January , 2017 Share Posted 5 January , 2017 3 hours ago, AOK4 said: The 87 German graves from Rue de Wervicq in Comines were moved to Wervik as well, at some point before 1929. The 3 British graves were moved to Bedford House Cemetery. Jan, they only found one British soldier, CSM Williams, when the cemetery was cleared in september 1924. Where the German graves moved to Wervik at the same time? The other 2, Brown and Dalgarno, have a special memorial at Zantvoorde British cemetery. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/160254/BROWN, J http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/160308/DALGARNO, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 6 January , 2017 Share Posted 6 January , 2017 You're right. At the time that I researched my book, the burial return sheets weren't available online which made it often very difficult to get the numbers of British reburials 100% correct (especially the ones who weren't found). I usually had the number of British burials from a list in the 1920's and I had the information from the CWGC that British soldiers were reburied from a certain (German) cemetery to a certain (British) cemetery. Lost graves are sometimes commemorated on cemeteries other than the ones were identified graves were taken to etc. There is the example of Captain Vyvyan f.i. who is commemorated on Bedford House but who is more than likely buried in Oostaverne Wood as an unidentified Captain of the RWF. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 7 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2017 I am still a bit struggling with the question posed in post # 398 regarding the German cemetery in Komen/Comines in Belgium. The Volksbund member journal mentions this cemetery a couple of times in short notes, basically only stating that it was destroyed. It is described in Jan's book Menen Wald, but I do not really get where it was situated. The photo below is from Comines, is it the cemetery in Belgium? Christine source of the card: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,139875666,var,Comines-Friedhof-Cimetiere-allemande-Carte-photo-Feldpost,language,F.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2017 Share Posted 7 January , 2017 I spotted this postcard on the local sale site, that may be of interest, although I have no idea where this one is, and apparently there are no details on the postcard either. I suspect that it is back in Germany given the text at the top, which looks to refer to '... seinen gefallenen...', but thought it might be of interest to somebody 'out there'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 7 January , 2017 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2017 Thanks! No idea where this could be, but if one knew, it would surely make a nice contribution to the www.denkmakprojekt.org site. However the sentence underneath is the same as the one on the monument in Comines (French - which we have been discussing the cemetery here), though with a different spelling. This time I had to check it, you might know already - I didn't. It is from the bible (Johannes 15:13): "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 7 January , 2017 Share Posted 7 January , 2017 2 hours ago, AliceF said: I am still a bit struggling with the question posed in post # 398 regarding the German cemetery in Komen/Comines in Belgium. The Volksbund member journal mentions this cemetery a couple of times in short notes, basically only stating that it was destroyed. It is described in Jan's book Menen Wald, but I do not really get where it was situated. The photo below is from Comines, is it the cemetery in Belgium? Christine I found same picture on Delcampe with that printed text (on picture side): "Friedhof der 45. Reserve Divi[sion]" For me, it was taken in Comines-France but that text will surely help. Could anyone here post a precise map of Comines-Belgium and Werwik in early 20th century? I post a map I have calculated from Google today and a map dated 1917 showing Sisters d'Orléans convent (destroyed and a street has been opend across). Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2017 Share Posted 7 January , 2017 Cheers Christine - although for that last bit I was thinking more on the lines of Horace's Odes 3.2.13 - "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"! Now you have me thinking... So, the author of John knew Horace's works???!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 7 January , 2017 Share Posted 7 January , 2017 Comines German Cemetery as an annex to local civilian cemetery was already discussed here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 7 January , 2017 Share Posted 7 January , 2017 3 hours ago, AliceF said: I am still a bit struggling with the question posed in post # 398 regarding the German cemetery in Komen/Comines in Belgium. The Volksbund member journal mentions this cemetery a couple of times in short notes, basically only stating that it was destroyed. It is described in Jan's book Menen Wald, but I do not really get where it was situated. The photo below is from Comines, is it the cemetery in Belgium? Christine source of the card: http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,139875666,var,Comines-Friedhof-Cimetiere-allemande-Carte-photo-Feldpost,language,F.html Hello, This picture shows the cemetery in Comines in France, where the memorial is still visible today. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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