Dragon Posted 27 March , 2017 Share Posted 27 March , 2017 Thank you for the directions. It sounds well worth a deviation. The cemetery at Munster, Haut-Rhin, (at the far end of the civic cemetery) contains graves of men who were French, German, British, Chinese, Jewish, Canadian and Muslim and from two World Wars. One façade of the large stone lion erected in May 1916 by 23rd Royal Bavarian Infantry Regiment for their fallen comrades is peppered with bullet holes bullet holes dating from February 6th/7th 1945 during a shoot-out between units of the defending (and withdrawing) 16. Volksgrenadier-Division and the French 10th Division as part of Operation Cheerful. You can see the trajectory of the bullets scoring one side only of the memorial and work out approximately where the gunmen were positioned - that's what first alerted us to the probability that there had been a gun battle. (It was clarified for me by Croonaert of this forum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 27 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 March , 2017 Great with all incoming information and comments! Post here a map with the location of St Mihiel cemetery (where it is located today). In the Volksbund member journal one can get the information that the cemetery in Savonnieres was moved to St Mihiel between 1922 and 1923. Altogether burials from 48 cemeteries were moved to St Mihiel (todays location), but I have not found an overview. Besides Savonnieres it was also Buxerulles, Buxieres and Woinville, which were moved to St Mihiel. Previously that cemetery today called St Mihiel and which is situated in the forest, was called Tranchée de Varnéville (also a German cemetery). The burials from the cemetery that was located in the town of St Mihiel itself were moved to Troyon (as previously mentioned in post # 149). Christine Source of the card:https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collections/cartes-postales/france-autres-communes-55/55-savonnieres-en-woevre-friedhof-gefallener-helden-165012052.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 28 March , 2017 Share Posted 28 March , 2017 Neither the German nor the US "St Mihiel" cemeteries are near St Mihiel. They are on either side of the village of Thiaucourt, way to the north. By the way, at Montmedy, in the old village cemetery up near the fortress, there is a mass grave with both French and German, and the war cemetery has both buried in it (the restaurant near the war cemetery, and on the side of the river with lots of flags outside it, is excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 28 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2017 6 hours ago, healdav said: Neither the German nor the US "St Mihiel" cemeteries are near St Mihiel. They are on either side of the village of Thiaucourt, way to the north. Hi, I am not sure if I got this right. Does that mean that the location I marked in yellow and labelling "German cemetery St Mihiel (today)" in post #527 is wrong? Thought I checked the coordinates given by the VDK here http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/st-mihiel.html But I might have got it wrong anyway?? Not to mix up with this one here though : Thiaucourt-Regniéville http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/thiaucourt-regnieville.html Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 28 March , 2017 Share Posted 28 March , 2017 26 minutes ago, AliceF said: Hi, I am not sure if I got this right. Does that mean that the location I marked in yellow and labelling "German cemetery St Mihiel (today)" in post #527 is wrong? Thought I checked the coordinates given by the VDK here http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/st-mihiel.html But I might have got it wrong anyway?? Not to mix up with this one here though : Thiaucourt-Regniéville http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/thiaucourt-regnieville.html Christine The St Mihiel cemetery is at 48 deg 56'44 N, 5 deg 52'38.94 E. What you, and the Volksbund call "Thiaucourt-Regnieville" is marked St Mihiel when you get there. The cemetery which you have as "St Mihiel" is not very far from St Mihiel (roughly north east, I seem to remember). It is fairly small and in the middle of what is a very run down, as in mostly derelict, industrial estate. The whole place looks as though it was some sort of military depot, or series of workshops, or something. I forget the name of it, and I don't have my maps here, but I did take some photos there for someone on this list, a couple of years ago. The US cemetery also called "St Mihiel is to the west of Thiaucourt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 28 March , 2017 Share Posted 28 March , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, healdav said: The St Mihiel cemetery is at 48 deg 56'44 N, 5 deg 52'38.94 E. What you, and the Volksbund call "Thiaucourt-Regnieville" is marked St Mihiel when you get there. The cemetery which you have as "St Mihiel" is not very far from St Mihiel (roughly north east, I seem to remember). It is fairly small and in the middle of what is a very run down, as in mostly derelict, industrial estate. The whole place looks as though it was some sort of military depot, or series of workshops, or something. I forget the name of it, and I don't have my maps here, but I did take some photos there for someone on this list, a couple of years ago. The US cemetery also called "St Mihiel is to the west of Thiaucourt. I don't understand what you are saying but the cemetery AliceF has on the map is the German cemetery "St. Mihiel"... http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/st-mihiel.html Although it was originally named Tranchée de Varneville and is also known as Gobessart, it is located 4 km to the Southeast of St. Mihiel. The dead from Savonnières etc. were transferred here after the war. There's more than 6,000 graves in this "fairly small" cemetery... Jan Edited 28 March , 2017 by AOK4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 28 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 March , 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, healdav said: What you, and the Volksbund call "Thiaucourt-Regnieville" is marked St Mihiel when you get there Well, yes I try to use the same names as the Volksbund on their website (have not visit the place so I do not know about the signs there. But actually the VDK is loading up the signs for each cemetery in three languages on their website. Done for Thiaucourt, not yet done for St Mihiel ). If you are looking for a grave location given by the Volksbund today and you want to find the grave, then you have to go after the information on their website. But I noticed actually some double naming on postcards (referring to cemeteries in/near Thiaucourt), I post two examples. First German cemetery, second American cemetery. Both in combination with St Mihiel. I think that might have to do with a name of a famous battle (but here I might be off, but maybe somebody else can explain better). Christine Sources of the cards: German cemetery: https://www.delcampe.net/en_GB/collectables/search?search_mode=all&excluded_terms=&is_searchable_in_descriptions=0&is_searchable_in_translations=0&term=Thiaucourt+cimetiere+allemand&show_type=all&display_ongoing=ongoing&started_days=&started_hours=&ended_hours=&display_only=ongoing&min_price=&max_price=¤cy=all&seller_localisation=&view=&order= American cemetery: https://www.delcampe.net/en_GB/collectables/postcards/france-unclassified-55/st-mihiel-thiaucourt-4-145-graves-cimetiere-americain-223606376.html Edited 28 March , 2017 by AliceF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 29 March , 2017 Share Posted 29 March , 2017 The best thing is to look at Google Earth in street view where you will see the signs at the entrance to the cemetery. The Thiaucourt cemetery now looks nothing like the postcards. The Eagle has long gone as have the big gates, etc. I don't know when. If the cemetery near St Mihiel has over 4000 graves they must mostly be in the mass graves. I can't find the photos that I took in that cemetery, but my impression was that it was not very big. I do recall some unusual metal lists of the graves in the form of a book. As I said, I did take photos for someone on this list. I don't remember who, so if they surface all may be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 29 March , 2017 Share Posted 29 March , 2017 We did discuss Thiaucourt back to post 182 in this thread. I wanted to visit last year but only got as far as family graves at Servon. I wanted to check out Jungers story of the mossy grave slab. Still it is on the list for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 29 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2017 7 hours ago, healdav said: The Thiaucourt cemetery now looks nothing like the postcards. Hi, I am aware of this. Maybe we should start distinguishing the American and the German cemeteries near Thiaucourt - I think this is what is confusing. The entrance of the American cemetery looks like this today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mihiel_American_Cemetery_and_Memorial. The cemetery is called: St. Mihiel American Cemetery and Memorial (to the West of Thiaucourt) The German cemetery to the southeast of Thiaucourt, however, has not St Mihiel in its name - at least not in German. If St Mihiel is/was added when the name was translated to English, I do not know. Google Street view works, but the photo below is more sharp. The source of the photo is the Volksbund webpage http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/thiaucourt-regnieville.html (agghhh - the copyright - probably violated here, sorry....). So no Mihiel here. 8 hours ago, healdav said: If the cemetery near St Mihiel has over 4000 graves they must mostly be in the mass graves. Almost 50:50. According to the Volksbund's webpage of the 6046 soldiers buried 2969 were buried in single graves (7 unidentified) and 3077 in one single collective grave (636 unidentified). 7 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said: We did discuss Thiaucourt back to post 182 in this thread. I wanted to visit last year but only got as far as family graves at Servon. Yes, I remember and looked at it again, a lot of interesting details that came up then. Thiaucourt would definitely be on the top of my list of cemeteries to visit (after Fins of course). I plan it also for next year. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 Hello Christine and other friends, I am preparing another travel in North of France and I will be in Arras, Lille, Comines, etc. by April 9th. As I was looking for new stuff about Comines and St-Laurent-Blangy German cemeteries, I found out they got documents about ALL German cemeteries at National Archives in Paris (exact place is Pierrefitte). As I have to go there too for other purpose on April 13th and 14th, I booked few references (not more than 5 every day). By chance, St-Mihiel is in same box as St-Laurent, so maybe I will pick some information about that place too. I just don't know how big are the amount of information, and how many pictures and how much time it means. I attach here the inventory of everything is available there (18 boxes), so if someone wants something special, just let me know and I will do my best. Pascal AN-Cimetières allemands.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 30 March , 2017 Share Posted 30 March , 2017 Here is another topic I need some help for. It is not really about a cemetery but about a "grave". Here is the story. In June 1944, there were some fights here (Figeac or Capdenac, France) between Wehrmacht and Waffen SS ("Das Reich" I have been told), and French partisans. Many French were killed as well as 3 Germans. Two of them were taken away by their comrades but the other one was quickly buried by partisans in a vineyard (as field was already dug). Then time (63 years) has passed away. As I am now quite involved in history research, I wonder what information I could get about that guy (probably reported dead or missing). Of course, I can bring little more details. Also, few old people still know were is that place (almost) and it won't be difficult to find him with a metal detector, but it is still a not so easy matter to discuss (not "cold" as WW1), as orphans and relatives of Figeac inhabitants who suffered because of war are still alive and remembering. Here is a link about that time here: http://www.archives.quercy.net/qhistorique/resistance/figeac.html#_edn36 Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 April , 2017 Share Posted 1 April , 2017 On 29/03/2017 at 09:38, Martin Feledziak said: We did discuss Thiaucourt back to post 182 in this thread. A quick add on to my posts from back then (as you might be able to tell, Thiaucourt is a particular favourite of mine! ), here's an extract from a French trench map from August 1915 showing the 1870/71 cemetery... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 1 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2017 On 2017-03-30 at 18:16, PascalMallet said: I found out they got documents about ALL German cemeteries at National Archives in Paris Pascal, that will be a very interesting visit at that archive! Exciting to hear what kind of documents you could look at. On 2017-03-30 at 18:31, PascalMallet said: Here is the story. In June 1944, there were some fights here Probably something for a WW2 forum??? On 2017-03-28 at 18:30, AOK4 said: Although it was originally named Tranchée de Varneville and is also known as Gobessart Well, when looking for this name (Gobessart/Gobesard), much more came up than for Tranchée de Varneville. I'll post some. 15 hours ago, CROONAERT said: here's an extract from a French trench map from August 1915 showing the 1870/71 cemetery... Great map! Probably one reason what makes St Mihiel and Thiaucourt special is the fact that some of the old gravestones are still visible. No idea if there are many German cemeteries in France with original gravestones left. And regarding Thiaucourt of course the 1870/71 part. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 1 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 April , 2017 Cemetery Gobessart/Gobesard/Tranchée de Varneville/St Mihiel Some more info and photos The monument (photo 4) was moved from the cemetery in Woinville. A probably interesting website for those who understand French (with photos from now and then): http://verdun-meuse.fr/index.php?qs=fr/lieux-et-visites/le-cimetiere-allemand-de-gobessart Christine Source of the photos: Photo 1: http://www.ebay.de/itm/AK-FRANKREICH-1916-Friedhof-in-Bois-brule-und-Gobesard-102085-/381434772292 Photo 2: http://www.cartespostalesdelorraine.com/news/forum/apremont-la-foret-f1647/ A very interesting webpage with many old photos - can recommend it. Photo 3: http://mediadb.nordbayern.de/redaktion/nn/02_Teil_Kriegstagebuch_GM.pdf - part of a war diary Photo 4: VDK member journal, 1957, 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 23 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2017 Hi, Found the photo below on delcampe. Wondered if the graves could still be located today. The texts says “Soldatenfriedhof im Feindesland Westen Arleux P.C. 1916” which means “Military cemetery in enemy territory, Arleux Pas de Calais 1916”. I could identify the names of soldiers of 4 graves (I could not read all the names, was a back and forward work with the Verlustenliste when #34 and 33 were identified): 29: Gottlob Gienger http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2455210 32: Franz Grißmer http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2455211 33: Leonhard Hayn http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2455212 34: Christian Flinspach http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2455218 All RIR 122, 4. Komp. died all 11.9.1916 Today these soldiers are all buried in the German cemetery Neuville St Vaast also called La Maison Blanche: Gienger: Block 11, grave 907 Grißmer (Grissmer) Block 12, grave 615 Hayn: Block 12, grave 609 Flinspach: Block 12, grave 597 But this was probably not their first reburial. In the Volksbund member journal in 1921 it says that the cemetery in Arleux en Gohelle was destroyed due to fighting and the graves not identifiable. In an issue from 1925 you can read that the cemetery in Arleux-en-Gohelle was moved to Roclincourt. A later issue from 1925 stated that the German graves in Roclincourt were moved to Neuville St Vaast (besides from 4 graves in the British cemetery, which remained). Christine Source of the photo, Arleux: https://www.delcampe.net/de/sammlerobjekte/ansichtskarten/militaria-ohne-zuordnung/52332270-soldatenfriedhof-i-feindesland-437276358.html Source of the photo, Neuville St Vaast: Volksbund 1930, 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 23 April , 2017 Share Posted 23 April , 2017 I have this image loose on my desktop, is it relevant ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 April , 2017 Share Posted 24 April , 2017 14 hours ago, Martin Feledziak said: I have this image loose on my desktop, is it relevant ? That is a simply astounding view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 24 April , 2017 Share Posted 24 April , 2017 Hello Christine, As I said few weeks ago, I have been again in North of France and also at National Archives in Paris. I am now uploading what I found (pictures, blueprints, and documents). Almost all documents are in French (few are in German) and I can't translate all. If some seem to be interesting for someone, I can make a quick translation. Pictures of blueprints are very poor as documents are big and their ink sometimes very pale. Here are the cemeteries I was interested at, or someone asked me for: Andéchy, Billy-Montigny, Bousbecques, Comines, Quesnoy-sur-Deule, St-Laurent-Blangy, St-Mihiel, Thiaucourt, and Wervicq-Sud. (Comines and St-Laurent will be uploaded later on.) In further posts, I will speak about peculiar things I have read. There will be also general documents about German cemeteries in France (to be uploaded), and also some brochures from VDK dated 1937-1938 (already online). Here is the link to my Dropbox "Cimetières allemands" files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/220zps1hyf1qtxv/AACpcxP68eF6RAXZjv8bC2ILa?dl=0 Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 24 April , 2017 Share Posted 24 April , 2017 (edited) 1000 mercis, Pascal, for what you uploaded about Andechy ! very grateful, très reconnaissante, amitiés, martine ps : je téléchargerai + tard (pb ordi) - I'll download later (computerproblems) Edited 24 April , 2017 by mva added ps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 24 April , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 April , 2017 On 2017-04-23 at 20:11, Martin Feledziak said: I have this image loose on my desktop, is it relevant ? Martin, yes this is the cemetery near Neuville St Vaast. Photo from nowadays: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuville-St_Vaast_German_war_cemetery#/media/File:Neuville-St_Vaast_War_Cemetery.jpg 3 hours ago, PascalMallet said: As I said few weeks ago, I have been again in North of France and also at National Archives in Paris Pascal, sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing! I usually have my fights with dropbox, but I'll try! Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 25 April , 2017 Share Posted 25 April , 2017 Here is a picture and blueprints about Billy-Montigny cemetery monument which has been modified in 1933. The text says: "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori". More on Dropbox (see "Aménagements"): https://www.dropbox.com/sh/220zps1hyf1qtxv/AACpcxP68eF6RAXZjv8bC2ILa?dl=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Feledziak Posted 25 April , 2017 Share Posted 25 April , 2017 Great Work, The drop box works just fine and there are many great scans to be viewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 25 April , 2017 Share Posted 25 April , 2017 Thanks Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 25 April , 2017 Share Posted 25 April , 2017 About Thiaucourt cemetery, in Dropbox directory named "Aigle", you can read the story about the monument that Thiaucourt inhabitants first want to hide with trees, then to destroy because it had more military than religious meaning. There were a fight, the maire refusing to sell a field for cemetery enlargement as long as that eagle has not been put down... At the end, they decided to move it to St-Mihiel, but I have no proof for that. You will also see where that cemetery is located, as well as St-Mihiel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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