German cemeteries in France

[PascalMallet]

Thank you Jan.

 

Have you got something about those coffins made of terra-cotta I spoke about in my post #553?

[PascalMallet]

On 11/05/2017 at 20:43, AliceF said:

On 25/04/2017 at 17:26, PascalMallet said:

Mons-en-Laonnois?

 

From time to time I still try to see if I can find out more about the cemeteries in post #552.

Could read the name Kasten, and there are two soldiers with the name Kasten buried in Mons-en-Lannois in 1917, but that is not really a proof, I know

 

I can read Hermann on that cross and it fits with KASTEN Hermann died 11/05/1917, so I think we can confirm that picture too.

[AOK4]

17 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

Thank you Jan.

 

Have you got something about those coffins made of terra-cotta I spoke about in my post #553?

 

I have never read or seen anything about them.

 

There are some very interesting documents in your files, thanks for making them available. Unfortunately I had hoped to find in them also some information about the concentrations by the French in the early post-war years. Was there nothing about that in the archives?

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

Hi Jan,

 

I didn't took pictures of everything, but I didn't see anything about concentrations except lists where the bodies came from and they are in Dropbox. I didn't read ref. 19860710/2 (see content in PDF on Dropbox) and maybe it is interesting for you. Can you be more precise about what you need? I guess you have already asked VDK and ZAK archives. On Monday, I have to phone to VDK's French agency (called SESMA) for St-Laurent-Blangy cemetery, maybe they will give me some tracks about that matter.

 

I also have been told about another bunch of archives to see in Paris (I go there next week), as well as in Lille, but I guess it is more about cemeteries than moves. Maybe you can also read the book "Le Ballet des Morts" by Béatrix Pau, ISBN 978-2-311-100006-8, though it speaks 95% about French soldiers.

 

Pascal

[AliceF]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎17 at 23:39, PascalMallet said:

As I told you, I ask a contact to take pictures at Dannevoux cemetery and I got them in the afternoon. Here are two, others are in Dropbox/Dannevoux

Hi,

thanks so much for following this up, Pascal! A pity that the violets are not there anymore, but things change. That's just how it is. But very nice to see an actual photo of the grave.

Christine

[AliceF]

Hi,

 

this is continuation of #572 & #567. Building up a kmz on German cemeteries in France.

Hope it works.

Should look like the screen print I add. It now contains Somme and Aisne, I will continue.

Strange enough it is sometimes not so simple to find the location as the Volksbund website does not give the correct location in some cases (see for example Vauxbuin, Soupir).

Helpful has been this page in many cases: http://www.kriegerdenkmäler-in-lippe.de/

And found also this one: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1bx8TT7av5_K2Mfcxj5XxqMMY4EY&hl=nl&ll=49.54576792213371%2C3.2760889999999563&z=9

 

Christine

German cemeteries WW1.kmz

[ejwalshe]

Hi Christine

 

I am using Volksbund to update my .kmz file with German cemeteries in Belgium, France, Luxemburg and Netherlands.  

 

Would be nice to verify it against your file when you are complete - I will post mine here.

 

By any chance, have you found the location for Halanzy?  Volksbund seems to have it in the wrong place.

 

Auch dieser Friedhof wurde von dem rheinischen Architekten Ludwig Paffendorf angelegt.
Die deutschen Gräber sind durch Steinkreuze, die französischen durch Betonkreuze gekennzeichnet.

Hier ruhen jetzt 44 Deutsche und 22 Franzosen des Ersten Weltkrieges. 

Lage: Am nordöstlichen Ortsrand.

 

Thanks, Ted

 

P.S.  My best guess is the cemetery is at 49.56344, 5.74386....the northern side of the communal cemetery?

 

Here is a screenshot of the German cemeteries on the Western Front - note some are actually CWGC cemeteries containing German graves.

 

 

File:  German Cemeteries Western Front

 

EDIT:  AOK4 wrote, I replied.

 

Eupen is in the wrong place. - Thanks, Corrected.

What is Geest-Gérompont? I don't know of any German cemetery there. - Neither did I.

You forgot Liège-Robermont. - I know, but I have not forgotten anything which is not listed at Volksbund...Luettich-Robermont is included though.

Recogne-Bastogne is only WW2.- Thanks, but with all due respect...I don't care...it has German burials...'nuf said.

Edited 10 June , 2017 by ejwalshe
Corrections

[AOK4]

3 hours ago, ejwalshe said:

Hi Christine

 

I am using Volksbund to update my .kmz file with German cemeteries in Belgium, France, Luxemburg and Netherlands.  

 

Would be nice to verify it against your file when you are complete - I will post mine here.

 

By any chance, have you found the location for Halanzy?  Volksbund seems to have it in the wrong place.

 

Auch dieser Friedhof wurde von dem rheinischen Architekten Ludwig Paffendorf angelegt.
Die deutschen Gräber sind durch Steinkreuze, die französischen durch Betonkreuze gekennzeichnet.

Hier ruhen jetzt 44 Deutsche und 22 Franzosen des Ersten Weltkrieges. 

Lage: Am nordöstlichen Ortsrand.

 

Thanks, Ted

 

P.S.  My best guess is the cemetery is at 49.56344, 5.74386....the northern side of the communal cemetery?

 

Here is a screenshot of the Volksbund German cemeteries in Belgium - note some are actually CWGC cemeteries containing German graves.

 

 

Hello,

 

Eupen is in the wrong place.

What is Geest-Gérompont? I don't know of any German cemetery there.

You forgot Liège-Robermont.

Recogne-Bastogne is only WW2.

 

I agree about Halanzy, it's probably on the communal cemetery.

 

Jan

[AliceF]

5 hours ago, ejwalshe said:

I am using Volksbund to update my .kmz file with German cemeteries in Belgium, France, Luxemburg and Netherlands.

Hi,

 

ok I misunderstood you. I thought you did not have the  kmz file you were interested in and would like to have a reference to one. Well, then you have done the job already!

I'll probably continue with mine, since I am halfway through, but I'll keep myself to the French side. I'll post it.

 

5 hours ago, ejwalshe said:

By any chance, have you found the location for Halanzy?  Volksbund seems to have it in the wrong place.

 

Probably I can't help here. But it illustrates very well this strange problem: one is interested in the location of an existing Volksbund cemetery. One thinks this is easy to find out, just to see that the location indicated at the Volksbund website is wrong (happens quite some times). One switches over to google Earth, click for the photos. Nothing, not a single photo taken and added to google earth. One keeps searching the internet for 15 more minutes - nothing. Other links do not help, one realise this will take some more time. Very odd all together.

 

So after 15min I still do not know where it is. The photo on the Volksbund website indicates some large coniferous trees (looks like pine). Do not find these on the communal cemetery. But this does not mean anything - they could be cut. Could be in one of the adjacent parcels to the communal cemetery. According the google earth street view there is no sign what so ever that there are WW1 graves at the cemetery (I could not find one, but maybe you can). I attach what I found on google Earth. A cross. But not a single sign of a WW1 cemetery. Coniferous trees in the background, but does not look like pine more like spruce.

 

Christine

 

 

[ejwalshe]

I am getting better at finding those cemeteries which have bad Google Map references at Volksbund.  Using a variety of tools at the TracesOfWar website, CWGC and photos in Google Earth.  Like you say, Christine, it is not easy!

 

 

 

Latest file:  German Cemeteries Western Front.kmz

 

The kmz file is categorized by country.

 

Note:  Also in process of adding photos to the kmz file

 

 

Edited 10 June , 2017 by ejwalshe
Updated file

[mva]

may I add this : Google maps are not always accurate ! A few weeks ago I wanted to find where a French milit. cemetery is, what Google maps showed was totally wrong ... an error of about 20 km. I would recommend this : https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/carte  

Start page : https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/

though it just indicates : "cimet.milit" - not whether it is French, German ou British Commonwealth. But it gives views from the air.

[PascalMallet]

Hi,

 

I am still checking and sorting the pictures (750+) I shot during my last visit at Archives nationales. I hope I will upload them on Dropbox within 10 days.

 

Today, I would like to introduce to you cemeteries part in www.geneanet.org because there are pictures taken in few German cemeteries (that I have just discovered).

Link is http://www.geneanet.org/cimetieres/

 

Then you have two main choices:

   - [Carte des cimetières] will show you all pictured cemeteries on a map (more than 10,000). Other cemeteries are not displayed.

   - [Liste des cimetières] will display a list of countries in [Zone géographique] (let's click on France), then a "district", then a town by clicking on [Liste des communes].

Of course, most of cemeteries are civilian, but you can filter with keyword "militaire" or "allemand" (German) by typing it in [Mot(s) clé(s)]. Or a city name.

Then click on cemetery name to display its map and GPS location. To see graves, click on [Voir les tombes]. As the pictures were taken for genealogical purpose only, there are no general views. If soldier's name has been recorded, you can search for its grave (same on main page).

 

Number of cemeteries increases everyday, so if it is not useful today, it will maybe be tomorrow...

 

Pascal

[AliceF]

Hi,

thanks for all input!

(Work my self slowly through the list of 200 cemeteries, Aisne, Oise, Somme, Pas-de-Calais done).

Greetings

Christine

 

German cemeteries WW1.kmz

[ejwalshe]

Christine, the locations are complete for German Cemeteries Western Front.kmz (see post above).

 

Please use this file to verify against yours when done...combined, we should be able to have the correct locations for them all!

 

Thanks, Ted

 

P.S.: In process of adding CWGC cemeteries to the file (e.g. A.I.F. Burial Ground, Flers should be included as well as many others)

Edited 10 June , 2017 by ejwalshe
Updated file

[AliceF]

 

 

21 hours ago, ejwalshe said:

Christine, the locations are complete for German Cemeteries Western Front.kmz (see post above).

 

Fantastic! Well done! You did also much more than I have intended to do (not only including other countries than France but also burials of Germans in for example CWGC cemeteries). This is a great source, because I have not found this type of map accessible elsewhere. So thank you very much for that!

 

As I said I am only half way and will need rest of June for what I intended to (Volksbund cemeteries in France). Had a quick glance and compared our maps. In most cases we are on the same spot (only different corners of the cemetery). You have included much more cases, but not Sailly-sur-la Lys (the only one I saw you might have missed or I might have gotten wrong). We differ only in few: Vauxbuin, Veslud, Laon Champ de Maneuvre, Soupir for example. Might be more but I just took a glance. In the cases of Vauxbuin I think the Volksbund was wrong and took the Italian cemetery - or: I was wrong - might be worth to check. Soupir, I do not remember, but I think the Volksbund marked the wrong spot (or I got it wrong). Should be checked too.

 

But this is great, because I often thought it would be interesting to know the nearest location to German burials. And this is possible to check know.

 

Christine

 

Attached file includes: Aisne, Oise, Somme, Nord, Pas-de-Calais

German cemeteries WW1.kmz

[ejwalshe]

Thanks for the help, Christine.  

 

I feel this is some of the most important work I have ever done, and I am quite proud of it too.

 

German Cemeteries Western Front

 

P.S.: Sailly-sur-la-Lys is included, and corrected Vauxbuin, Veslud, Laon Champ de Manoeuvre and Soupir!.

 

 

Edited 10 June , 2017 by ejwalshe

[Hedley Malloch]

Wambrechies German Military Cemetery is between Lille and Le Quesnoy (59).  An English translation of the information in the register is given below:

 

German War Cemetery Wambrechies

 

 

2 348 German war casualties First World War

 

The German military cemetery in Wambrechies was established in 1915 by Bavarian regiments.  After the end of the war, French military authorities expanded it with casualties from surrounding areas. The casualties dating from 1917 (almost half of the total men buried here) fell almost without exception in the heavy fighting during the British grand offensive in Flanders between June and November 1917 in the hilly area around Wijschate and Messines south of Ypres.  Another 500 men fell during the German offensive on Armentières and the Kemmelberg in April 1918 and during the trench wars and defensive battles in August 1918.  The men belonged to regiments whose home garrisons were in Bavaria (almost half of the total), all the Prussian provinces and Saxony, Thuringia, Hesse and Württemberg.

 

Improvement works between the wars were done by the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge from 1929, based on an agreement with the French military authorities. A lawn was extended between the graves, rosebushes and trees were planted, a new entrance gate fitted, and a stone monument erected with the inscription “Here rest German Soldiers”.  The issue of a more permanent marking of the graves remained unresolved due to a lack of funding and the outbreak of WWII in 1939.

 

Final layout: After the signing of the Franco-German agreement on war graves on July 19th 1966, the Volksbund –with financial aid from the German government- could proceed to work on the final layout of German war graves dating from WW1. Apart from a substantial rework of the landscaping, the provisional wooden crosses were exchanged for crosses made of metal, with lettering in relief bearing the names and dates of the Fallen. The Bundeswehr provided logistical support by delivering the foundations of the crosses, weighing 35 kg each. The crosses were set by volunteers partaking in Youth Camps organised by the Volksbund. All 2348 Fallen rest in individual graves.  33 of them remain unidentified.

 

The 11 graves with men of the Jewish faith were marked with a gravestone instead of a cross. The Hebraic inscriptions mean (top line): here lies buried... (lower line) may his soul be integrated into the circle of the living.

[ejwalshe]

An odd discrepancy in the translated text in my .kmz file for Wambrechies:

 

The German soldiers' cemetery Wambrechies was built by Bavarian troops in September 1916, and after the end of the war, it was enlarged by the French military authorities from the surrounding municipalities.

[Hedley Malloch]

11 hours ago, ejwalshe said:

An odd discrepancy in the translated text in my .kmz file for Wambrechies:

 

The German soldiers' cemetery Wambrechies was built by Bavarian troops in September 1916, and after the end of the war, it was enlarged by the French military authorities from the surrounding municipalities.

Yes, I think that should read 1914.  AIR there are some burials from the early days of the war.  In fact the ordered nature of the early burials and that a high proportion of the dead from that time are named, made me think that there could have been a medical post in the adjoining farm.

 

Is there a difference (possibly administrative) between a plot of land being used for burials and it being recognised as a cemetery?

 

I'll have a closer look at the dates on the crosses next time I pass the cemetery.

Edited 13 June , 2017 by Hedley Malloch

[AOK4]

10 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

Yes, I think that should read 1914.  AIR there are some burials from the early days of the war.  In fact the ordered nature of the early burials and that a high proportion of the dead from that time are named, made me think that there could have been a medical post in the adjoining farm.

 

Is there a difference (possibly administrative) between a plot of land being used for burials and it being recognised as a cemetery?

 

I'll have a closer look at the dates on the crosses next time I pass the cemetery.

 

As graves were brought in from elsewhere, you can't make any conclusions about when the cemetery in Wambrechies was started...

 

I'll check whether I can find something.

 

Jan

[Martin Feledziak]

I am currently reading the early chapters of "The German 66th Regiment in the First World War"

which is basically a translation into English of the Regimental history.

In September 1915 the Author, Ottto Korfes describes the loss of two of his men

 

Lt  TSCHMARKE, 10/66 who was hit by shrapnel and died the following day in Field hospital 4, Achiet-Le-Grand.

and

Musketeer RIEDEL.

Both were buried in the cemetery in Achiet-Le-Petit.

 

I can find a reference for them in the Verlustlisten but not in the VDK.

This example indicates how although the soldiers were initially laid to rest in one place they did not necessarily remain in that site even though that site is still now a German military cemetery.

 

 

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2954212

 

Edited 16 June , 2017 by Martin Feledziak

[AOK4]

Fritz Riedel is buried in Achiet-le-Petit: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=9504de75ade9478d207b5720bf2438b4&cHash=4404bf65bfb1fa9d0f71554186d7e1d0

 

Jan

[Martin Feledziak]

15 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Fritz Riedel is buried in Achiet-le-Petit: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=9504de75ade9478d207b5720bf2438b4&cHash=4404bf65bfb1fa9d0f71554186d7e1d0

 

Jan

 

Gosh, I did not find him on my search. So if Fritz is there then so should Robert.

The book indicates that Roberts's Father was present at the ceremony, Robert's Father was a serving Doctor in the field.

 

Logically Robert should be somewhere next to tomb 223.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2999252

[AOK4]

13 minutes ago, Martin Feledziak said:

 

Gosh, I did not find him on my search. So if Fritz is there then so should Robert.

The book indicates that Roberts's Father was present at the ceremony, Robert's Father was a serving Doctor in the field.

 

Logically Robert should be somewhere next to tomb 223.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2999252

 

Not necessarily, officers were often buried in an officer's plot. And his body have been taken home later as well.

Jan

[AliceF]

Hi,

 

searched a bit more but did not find any info about Ltn. Tschmarke. I think it is a bit strange that there is no entry in the Volksbund data base. Only two soldiers with that name, both died in WW2. One with the names Richard Rudolf Robert from Posen, maybe a relative, but not a single entry regarding WW1 with that name. Maybe Paul Tschmarke was the father: http://ofb.genealogy.net/famreport.php?ofb=magdeburg&ID=I7173&nachname=TSCHMARKE&modus=&lang=de . Maybe ancestor could give more. So he might have been reburied in Germany as Jan suggested.

 

Christine