AliceF Posted 18 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 August , 2017 3 hours ago, PascalMallet said: Yes, I found that picture few weeks ago in Archives nationales in Paris. This is really great. I am so happy for you that your search and all the time you have spent on it has been rewarded in this way! I often wonder when I see these old photos on graves on internet, if there is still a relative alive and searching. Before I started my own search I did not know that we were so many still searching after 100 years. I had difficulties to locate the location of the photo on the map. I assume you did. Could you post it? What I found strange is that the French plate disappeared. I assume from what you wrote that it were French authorities who took care of the cemetery at that time. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelcave Posted 18 August , 2017 Share Posted 18 August , 2017 16 hours ago, mva said: I don't know that cemetery, but I know the Germ. cemeteries here in the Somme : just name, rank, date of death. Nothing else ! just a cross or a stone if Jewish. Maybe so, but I would say not a requirement of the Peace Treaties - for example, German soldiers buried in CWGC cemeteries have as much information on the headstone as they (presumably) received from the German authorities, such as battalion, regiment etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 19 August , 2017 Share Posted 19 August , 2017 7 hours ago, nigelcave said: Maybe so, but I would say not a requirement of the Peace Treaties - for example, German soldiers buried in CWGC cemeteries have as much information on the headstone as they (presumably) received from the German authorities, such as battalion, regiment etc. Unfortunately, it seems the units are disappearing from replaced headstones as I noticed on a few occasions. They also started using an abysmal modern font which is not fitting for a gravestone in my opinion. This is on replaced headstones on British cemeteries. Leaving away the units is most probably done to save on engraving costs as VDK is always short of money. Besides, one has to remember that VDK was not intended as an war graves commission, it was intended as a private peace organisation. They have no interest in the units etc. For them all dead are just war victims calling for peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 19 August , 2017 Share Posted 19 August , 2017 I went to this German cemetery [ near Loivre ] 2 years ago when i was finding info about Villers Franqueux for my book on that village in ww1. We must have gone 1 mile up a dirt track to find it. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 19 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2017 On 2017-08-17 at 23:53, AOK4 said: The Allies did not forbid that. Check out Mons St. Symphorien for one. Thanks for this information, Jan. Interesting cemetery with headstones. Did not find any good photos without copy-right, but here you can see examples of headstones: http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-military-cemetery-of-saint-symphorien-german-and-british-war-graves-74251075.html. Different units had different type of headstones, as I understood it. The cemetery is situated in Belgium and a CWGC cemetery since 1919, however, information can also be found on the Volksbund webpage: http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaetten.html Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 19 August , 2017 Share Posted 19 August , 2017 7 hours ago, morrisc8 said: I went to this German cemetery [ near Loivre ] 2 years ago when i was finding info about Villers Franqueux for my book on that village in ww1. We must have gone 1 mile up a dirt track to find it. Keith Oh yes, the dirt track to Loivre brings up great memories of a visit with my two German friends to the Champagne some years ago. Our driver had a very nice 4x4 mercedes with which we drove at quite high speed along this track after someone coming from there had warned us that the cemetery was "unreachable". No problem for our party though... Although the black car was more like a white car afterwards. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 19 August , 2017 Share Posted 19 August , 2017 7 minutes ago, AOK4 said: Oh yes, the dirt track to Loivre brings up great memories of a visit with my two German friends to the Champagne some years ago. Our driver had a very nice 4x4 mercedes with which we drove at quite high speed along this track after someone coming from there had warned us that the cemetery was "unreachable". No problem for our party though... Although the black car was more like a white car afterwards. Jan Yes we had a hire car, covered with dust as well.. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 20 August , 2017 Share Posted 20 August , 2017 On 18/08/2017 at 20:19, AliceF said: This is really great. I am so happy for you that your search and all the time you have spent on it has been rewarded in this way! I often wonder when I see these old photos on graves on internet, if there is still a relative alive and searching. Before I started my own search I did not know that we were so many still searching after 100 years. I had difficulties to locate the location of the photo on the map. I assume you did. Could you post it? What I found strange is that the French plate disappeared. I assume from what you wrote that it were French authorities who took care of the cemetery at that time. Christine I was away from my dear keyboard for two long days as we got some relatives visiting us... Time to relax and walk aroud (but no mushrooms, not one! even bad). I was searching for families of the other French buried with my grand-father and I found few (5 or 6). Few of them had pictures and also told me stories. That was a great reward too! They are always very glad with the information I give. Unfortunately, most of those men were so young they had no wife nor children, so they are forgotten now. The sadest result for me was a wife searching for her husband and giving much information (as he always put his papers in his left pocket). She had a paper saying he was buried in massgrave n°1 (see the map I will post later). But he can't be identified and I am sure he is that unknown soldier they speak about. I contacted someone who could be a relative, but he told me no one is alive now in that area, even their children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 20 August , 2017 Share Posted 20 August , 2017 On 18/08/2017 at 20:19, AliceF said: I had difficulties to locate the location of the photo on the map. I assume you did. Could you post it? What I found strange is that the French plate disappeared. I assume from what you wrote that it were French authorities who took care of the cemetery at that time. For location of massgraves, look at the picture below. I guess the wooden and marble plates were against the wall, with still a little question for me as the wall has no outer angle there. I still have to dig... The wife I was speaking of wrote that in 1920, marble plates (with German and French names together) has been broken by bombing. After, I can say French were not as good as other countries to honor their dead in those cemeteries. About Comines, remember it was a German cemetery with only 22 French and 3-4 British. But today, it is still a lot of work to get information and help from authorities, I can swear! Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 21 August , 2017 Share Posted 21 August , 2017 About Comines (again), I almost finished to compare German map dated 1914-1918 and French map dated ab.1924, after they move bodies from civilian cemetery to German part. Here are few more information. "R" part of the German map seem to be massgraves, as R1 to R97 are now called FC1 to FC97 (FC = MG), though their numbers are not at same place. Number of bodies in each FC is same as on German map. FC98 to FC121 were dug in empty spaces of Saxon and Würtemburger parts (there was a monument there) to receive bodies from civilian cemetery, except FC108 to FC110 which stay there instead of MG3 and MG4. MG1 was probably moved to FC98 and MG2 to FC99. About parts noted "?", I don't if they were dug by German needing space or by French to move individual graves from civilian cemetery (I lean on that last option). Looking closerly to a list VDK sent me two years ago (probably dated 1958), I found out that 281 bodies in MG4 (FC108) were put in only 171 caskets, made of bad "Spanholz" (I think handwritten "B" means "Bayerish"). As they used 2,000 such caskets to put 2,030 bodies in 121 massgraves, we can think bodies were in better shape in "R" massgraves, with less bodies in each. I also learnt that bodies with individual graves were put in better boxes with two spaces in each (1,000 boxes for about 2,000 identified men). I don't know yet how they were done but they were painted in grey and maybe round-shaped (information from a witness, has to be confirmed). If any, I will take your comments thankfully. Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 1 October , 2017 Share Posted 1 October , 2017 Hello, I think I have been through my work about Comines cemetery, and when crossing all information I got I realized I have told something wrong in my two last posts #684 and #685, as all massgraves 1 to 4 left town cemetery to German part in 1922, massgrave 1 and 2 moving only on the other side of the wall. See below before and after 1922. Numbers between () are numbers of bodies in each massgrave, according to the list in my post #685. VDK also gave me a board with MG numbers before and after 1922. You can see they have used all empty spaces to dig new MG. So after 1922, all Germans where in German part of cemetery (about 300 bodies from MG 7 to 10 have been moved to Quesnoy-sur-Deûle, probably because there was not enough room in Comines). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 1 October , 2017 Share Posted 1 October , 2017 (edited) Hello, 209 to 212 D.I.rés should be RIR (Reserve Infanterie Regiment) Jan Edited 1 October , 2017 by AOK4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 1 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2017 Hi Pascal, very complex all this. Have you come any further with the location of the photos in post # 663 and 671? Or did I miss it? MG7-10 moved to Quesnoy? Did you mention this earlier? Difficult with all these reburials. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 1 October , 2017 Share Posted 1 October , 2017 About Reihengrab I already ask for your help here, I have found more information and maybe something interesting. First of all, here a well know picture of Comines we can find in Delcampe. We can see Reihengrab: large graves with upto 20/22 bodies and numbered with a small white board (in the circle is number 11). Here is a closer look to the 1917-1918 map. "R." stands for Reihengrab and graves are numbered 1 to 97, with numbers 1 to x to identify bodies, probably buried side by side (8 in RG 1 and 10 in RG 11): On that other map used in 1957-1958 when they want to empty German cemetery, you get same part but RG 1 is now number 75 (FC = massgrave), still with 8 bodies ("c."), and RG 11 is now number 77, but still with 10 bodies. As there are still 97 graves, you can see number of bodies on the list in post #685. As this part has not been moved in 1922, we can think bodies in Reihengrab are still side by side and well identified. I got that picture from VDK about RG n°1 (re-numbered 75). Soldier n°1, so the one on the left looking at the map was Ottamar HEROLD. According they used 4,300 sarkophages in 1958 for about 4,300 bodies, Herold probably has his own with full identification. He now rests in St.-Laurent-Blangy, BUT in massgrave (VDK website). There were 671 soldiers buried in RG in that part of cemetery + 242 in same kind of graves in town cemetery who were first moved in 1922 and I don't know if they stay side by side (though graves have not been mixed, except 4). So what I think if there are surely 671 soldiers with their own "box" (and upto 913) in that massgrave. As you can see, VDK has more information that they want to give... If it is so in St.-Laurent, can't it be same for other places? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 1 October , 2017 Share Posted 1 October , 2017 On 02/10/2017 at 03:59, AOK4 said: Hello, 209 to 212 D.I.rés should be RIR (Reserve Infanterie Regiment) Jan Hello Jan, You are quite right, and I thank you for that. I changed immediately my map, but I keep "R.I. rés." (Régiment d'Infanterie de Réserve), though correct word should be R.I.R. in French too, as anyone can read it. Here is the modified map. Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 1 October , 2017 Share Posted 1 October , 2017 1 hour ago, AliceF said: Hi Pascal, very complex all this. Have you come any further with the location of the photos in post # 663 and 671? Or did I miss it? MG7-10 moved to Quesnoy? Did you mention this earlier? Difficult with all these reburials. Christine Hi Christine, Yes, I had to concentrate to get through it (though there are still mistakes as you can see in Jan's last post). Pictures posted in #663 and #671 show massgraves n°108, 109, and 110 in post #686. On picture with my grand-father's name (post #663), you can see [FOSSE CO]MMU[NE] 108 on the cross. I didn't mention before that MG7-10 were moved to Quesnoy as I got the information from VDK only few weeks ago. As you can read in my previous post, they got a lot of information. I can't blame them too much because they helped me much more than French (have you ever tried to move a mountain?...) Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 1 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2017 Ah, now I see. Finally I understand which wall was photographed. Good to hear that the Volksbund is helping you well. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 4 October , 2017 Share Posted 4 October , 2017 Christine, here is a little story "for you" I found yesterday. It's about those soldiers born in Alsace who fought for Germany, though their heart (most of them) was French. To be short, Alsace (Elsass in German) was "given" to Germany after 1870 war and "given back" to France after 1918. Of course, they were many with the same dilemna. I didn't find his name (HER[R]MAN[N] Louis/Ludwig) on VDK (but his family could have taken him back to his home town), nor on http://des.genealogy.net Pascal Article published in Le Matin of 25/09/1919 (excerpt). [...] The other morning, by a radiant dawn, I went up to Le Linge, on the sacred and horrible mountain which saw the most frightful of hecatombs. And suddenly, in a German cemetery near the summit, between two crevasses in the midst of the frightful convulsion of nature, I saw on a hillock a crown of fresh white flowers... A fresh wreath on a German grave, who could have put it? Who could have brought these flowers into this chaos? I approached. And then the truth appeared to me. The cross, planted on the mound, bore the traditional German inscription: "Louis Hermann, chasseur at ..., died as a hero on December 20, 1915." But the crown on the cross had a French inscription: "To my beloved son.” And it also wore a small blue, white and red cockade. [...] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 4 October , 2017 Share Posted 4 October , 2017 I would like to post two aerial pictures of Comines, showing much different ways to look after the dead in France and Germany (and other Northern countries, I mean North from France). First picture is dated 1951 and you can see: Part A and A' is German cemetery (A' is were bodies have been buried after leaving part B). Place is full of grass and trees (it's a pity I have found no "ground" pictures dated 1950's). Part B is city cemetery. C is the hall where bodies will be stored from 1958 et 1961. Second picture is dated 1965. Town of Comines got back parts A and A' 7 years before and... cut all trees and put gravel (I guess) on the floor. Big German monument is still in part A (and today too). Part A' was no more used and is now a parking lot. That's how most of city cemeteries are in France... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 5 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 October , 2017 On 05/10/2017 at 00:17, PascalMallet said: I didn't find his name (HER[R]MAN[N] Louis/Ludwig) on VDK (but his family could have taken him back to his home town), nor on http://des.genealogy.net Did not find him either in VDK database, but he might be in the Verlustenliste. Difficult to know without unit. Maybe in a French database? On 05/10/2017 at 00:37, PascalMallet said: showing much different ways to look after the dead in France and Germany Yes, different cultures, different traditions, different cemeteries. Today the entire area of the cemetery in Comines is used again. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 9 October , 2017 Share Posted 9 October , 2017 On 05/10/2017 at 16:44, AliceF said: Yes, different cultures, different traditions, different cemeteries. Today the entire area of the cemetery in Comines is used again. It is now called "Cimetière nord" and they opened another one South of city. As you know, German monument is still there. In March 1958, city of Comines asked to keep it after land is free of graves, and VDK accepted that with grateful thanks. Last time I was there I shot a stone dedicated to 212th Rés. Inf. Regiment that lays on the ground around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 17 October , 2017 Share Posted 17 October , 2017 Hello, I eventually bought the postcard below on Internet (w/o watermark...) and I would like to understand the text on back side. Can anyone translet it for me? I also make a high resolution scan (2400 dpi) of graves, and I identified 7-8 soldiers, all in St-Laurent-Blangy now, without a surprise. Here are few pictures where I can't read names because I don't speak German (see attached PDF file). Can someone help me for that too? Pascal Comines-Photos-Tombes.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 17 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2017 Pascal, I do not get it all right now, but most of it. I'll try with a translation later today. Christine Militär Friedhof v. Comines Xxx Ruheort wo auch Albert liegt. Bis- her noch nicht beschossen [???]. Liegen 20 Tage in vor- derster Stellung. Dann 10 Tage in Ruhe. Hauptsächlich exerzieren xx, sonst xxx. Ist aber egal. Jedoch besser als vorn. Hatten jetzt große Kälte. Seit längeren Jahren war hier keine Eisbahn [???]. Für heute schließt mit besten Grüßen Dein Bruder Bruno [?] P.S. The photos are more difficult... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 17 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2017 Hm, do not really understand it all, maybe someone else can correct/add. Christine Military cemetery in Comines Resting place where also Albert is buried. Until now [I was] not shelled/fired at [?]. Are 20 days in front line, 10 days in rest. Mainly exercising, otherwise xxx. It does not matter. Better than at the front. Has been very cold. Has been several years since there was an ice track [????] here. This for today, best regards Your brother Bruno [?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 17 October , 2017 Share Posted 17 October , 2017 Hi Christine, well done! With regard to the 2nd line of your English translation I´d suggest: Until now it [Comines] was not taken under fire. The first word in the 8th line of the original German text is an abbreviation for "und" -u. Can´t make out the rest, either. I, too, read "Eisbahn" in the original. Maybe he just meant icy surface. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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