trajan Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 17 hours ago, PascalMallet said: Here are few pictures I scanned from "Le Miroir". Texts are very "patriotic", I guess it was the same in Germany. ... 07/11/1914: German cross found in a trench (text below the picture says "four braves fallen on Dec. 23rd, 1914, during 9th fight of the day"...). Discrepancy in the date there - "07/11/1914" but the cross is dated 23/12/1914... That aside, could the Georg Bauer be the listed as "missing" here - http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1105935 Verlustlisten 1. Weltkrieg, page 3862: Bauer Georg (Kemmaten, Coburg) Page Number 3862 Ausgabe 291 Datum 1914-12-29 Last name Bauer First name Georg Ort Kemmaten, Coburg Liste Preußen 112 Reg. o.ä. Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 31 Bemerk. Geburtsdatum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Congratulations for you sharp look... and sorry for my mistake: newspaper is dated 07/11/1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 19 minutes ago, PascalMallet said: Congratulations for you sharp look... and sorry for my mistake: newspaper is dated 07/11/1915. Phew....!!! Not a 'Back to the Future' event then! What is odd is that I can't find the other very unusual names on Verlustlisten, - but there again, I am very much a beginner with that site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 29 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Here there are: http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1311924 So somebody must have edited the photo.... Georg Bauer Thomas Ritter Michael Albrecht Alois Daubenmerkl. All have known graves: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=d8da08bee1d337f6bf6d56e78edb7ccd&cHash=061479d0a23ab250758ee33eaee828fc http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=5710b75fd6544d84a35fb4cd378283a0&cHash=04a31b8b1518c1a797c925a03eac8437 http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=41ff6994dfd405f1e7f2906db0089249&cHash=658b401079559b962db022f2c9594641 http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=c7a58de881ab6e909ba480083ba85ff3&cHash=4b2bc3c59bdd466c19b0a81c45717e68 Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Oh well done Christine! I was thinking that perhaps the photograph had been retouched as the 'Georg' was darker than the 'Bauer', and there are other cases on that cross where that is so. Also, I had never come across - in my limited experience - such things as, for example, a first or last name such as 'Habael Albredick'! And I had assumed that the capital 'L' at the end of 'Daubenmerkl' was the start of the uncompleted word 'Landwehr'... And last but not least, although I had thought that '9.Kamp' was really '9.Komp', I couldn't make sense of the 'R.I.P. 13' - but obviously 'R.I.R' 13... Should have guessed that ... but I didn't think Landwehrmen kept that 'status/rank' title/designation when assigned to an active service regiment - I thought that they then became an 'Infanterist' or whatever and so I was thinking that if this was a unit title, it should be something with an 'L' for Landwehr in it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 29 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Found the names very odd indeed and was actually surprised to find "Daubenmerkl". Thought R.I.P. was one of the many units I would not know of. The way I found Georg Bauer very quickly was to type his first and last name in the Verlustenliste search option and only the number 13 under regiments. I did not know that one would have an interest to retouch such a photo - very amazing all together. Very interesting photos, Pascal. Have not have the time to look at the downloads, but will during the weekend. (Endless rain in Southern Sweden this summer, but I realize that if the only thing, one has to complain about, is the weather - one is quite lucky. But the contrast to Southern Europe with daily pleasant temperatures around 30 degrees can seem a bit harsh. Julian - most of the time I read your comments on Turkish climate with some envy ;-). Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 1 hour ago, AliceF said: ... The way I found Georg Bauer very quickly was to type his first and last name in the Verlustenliste search option and only the number 13 under regiments. I did not know that one would have an interest to retouch such a photo - very amazing all together....Julian - most of the time I read your comments on Turkish climate with some envy ;-). Ah, as I indicated, I have hardly any experience at using the Verlustenliste site so just tried the 'Georg Bauer' approach and then looked for a '1914-12' entry. As for 'RIP' I was thinking it must be requiescat in pace with the '13' referring to a verse or line in some utterly obscure German hymn...! True, weather here has been good - except for the 15 minute episode in Istanbul Thursday when a hail- and rain-storm did some pretty major damage (including my mother-in-law's balcony furniture! - 'major damage' for her), but the nighttime temps. of 25+ not so nice... A balmy 30 deg, now with a slight breeze... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 29 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 July , 2017 21 minutes ago, trajan said: As for 'RIP' I was thinking it must be requiescat in pace with the '13' referring to a verse or line in some utterly obscure German hymn...! I thought P was for Pionier something. Well, regarding the time for an entry in the Verlustenliste you have to consider that the date given is the publishing date and not the date of death/wounding etc. My experience is that there is often at least a month between for example date of death and date in the Verlustenliste. But there can be of course several months or years in between. I can not complain about night temperatures though - a fact that I might reconsider and appreciate more. 18 degrees during day time, grey, and rain, become pleasant 12 degrees at night ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Hi Christine, Good that you found those 4 men, now together in St-Laurent-Blangy massgrave. Looking more closely at the picture, I found a very shady leg to P in R.I.P., so it would be R.I.R. instead. I also agree Julian that that part is darker, but maybe it has been painted before shooting the picture. So they maybe understood "RIP" as Requiescat In Pace that you can find on some French graves. Letters "e" in that darker part are also different than most of the others. Also, "Kamp" instead of "Komp" is a mistake they could have done. What can I say about weather in South of France??? Today is fine, but probably stormy tonight. Summer 2017 is mostly fine, but with sometimes 20°C difference from a day to another (35° down to 15°)... We really don't know how to dress!!! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 29 July , 2017 Share Posted 29 July , 2017 Jan, I have just uploaded in Dropbox something for you. They are government rules for exhumations (mass or individual). Texts are dated 1919 and you will find them in "_Divers (Min. Intérieur\Exhumations". There is also something about bad tourists behaviour on the battlefields (dated 1920). I didn't read texts deeply and I hope you will understand them. Ask me for help if needed. More to come... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 31 July , 2017 Share Posted 31 July , 2017 Everything I shot in Archives nationales is now uploaded in Dropbox. Here what is new: - "_Divers (AN 19860710-2)\VDK (questions)". Questions from VDK to French authority about German cemeteries (1926-1931), and replies (as I shot without reading, I didn't see that most of the time replies came first...) Most of questions are about land, crosses, flowers, etc. I think only few are with some interest now. As there are 100s of pages, I have made an index with Excel when I think there is something special. Sometimes, it is about a peculiar soldier. When it is a picture, I wrote "(photo"). In 1928/10/04, I have copied and translated a text about "metal recovery"; just read it... Here is that text (English text is after French one): 597f18f7c009d_Fouillessauvagessurleschampsdebataille.pdf - "_Divers (Min. Intérieur)\Régions libérées". A 127-page text ruling the "Liberated Regions" (parts of France ruled by German during the war). It is dated 1919. - "_Divers (Min. Intérieur)\Repérage tombes". In 1920, battlefields have to go back to agricultural purpose, and teams of workers are working quicker to clean and reconstruct lands than military services to identify and pick up corpses, so there were instructions in July 1920 to push workers to put "a picket or any visible device" and report to local authority. But how many soldiers have been lost? Here are instructions (in French and in English): 597f1bc7c1b7c_Repragetombesisoles.pdf That's all folks! At least from the Archives in Paris... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 31 July , 2017 Share Posted 31 July , 2017 Thanks, I'm downloading... Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 31 July , 2017 Share Posted 31 July , 2017 dix mille mercis, Pascal ! amitiés du Santerre, martine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 31 July , 2017 Share Posted 31 July , 2017 23 minutes ago, mva said: dix mille mercis, Pascal ! amitiés du Santerre, martine :-) See my PM I just sent to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 31 July , 2017 Share Posted 31 July , 2017 In Amiens archives, I also found something about German families wanting to visit Roye cemetery (and other) in 1931. Also about a visit of the Archbishop of München coming "incognito"... See "Roye et dépt Somme (80)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 31 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 July , 2017 On 31/07/2017 at 22:05, PascalMallet said: In 1928/10/04, I have copied and translated a text about "metal recovery"; just read it... Here is that text (English text is after French one On 31/07/2017 at 22:05, PascalMallet said: In 1920, battlefields have to go back to agricultural purpose, and teams of workers are working quicker to clean and reconstruct lands than military services to identify and pick up corpses, so there were instructions in July 1920 to push workers to put "a picket or any visible device" and report to local authority. Pascal, thank you very much for transcribing and translating these texts (it's a lot of work!) for us who do not understand French. I have read the texts and for relatives (and others) that must have been a very shocking experience to see how excavations were done (or not done). Nevertheless, B. Schomaker got an individual grave: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=fff257362812389b3a18162df88d48f9&cHash=ab0b2cd546f50b3fb2a319c33c114b83 He is also listed here: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2[gid]=fff257362812389b3a18162df88d48f9&cHash=ab0b2cd546f50b3fb2a319c33c114b83 Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 4 August , 2017 Share Posted 4 August , 2017 (edited) Christine, have you ever heard of Bois de Montigny German Cemetery? I just got a big (64 pages) .pdf from the CWGC: "List of Cemeteries in France and Belgium" compiled during or very shortly after the Armistice, and the location for this cemetery is given as 44.x.30.a.4.9 (50.3796, 3.6346) at the south end of Chemin Dauphin Prolonge by Quaroble. This location is not included in the .kmz files created, and I have a feeling this .pdf file will contain many more just like it (e.g.,: Barastre Germany Cemetery). I'll follow up with a complete list of these former cemeteries which I did not find at Volksbund when I was creating those .kmz files. Cheers, Ted This is the complete list - I have yet to determine which of these cemeteries are missing from the .kmz files. First impression is most of these no longer exist, and for those that do, the coordinates are often off by up to 100 meters Cemetery BTM GPS Barastre German Cemetery 57c.o.10.c.1.4 50.0811, 2.9344 Beaucamps German Cemetery, Beaucamps 36.o.22.c.4.4 50.6041, 2.9204 Beaulencourt German Cemetery 57c.n.11.d.1.4 50.0804, 2.8769 Bertincourt Communal Cemetery, German Extension 57c.p.8.c.05.65 50.0826, 2.9848 Bois de Montigny German Cemetery 44a.x.30.a.4.9 50.3796, 3.6346 Bout de Ville German Cemetery, Richebourg St. Vaast 36a.r.24.a.2.6 50.6065, 2.7253 Cambrai (East) German Cemetery 57b.a.12.b.8.3 50.1789, 3.2625 Caudry German Military Cemetery 57b.j.19.a.9.1 50.1220, 3.4243 Clary German Cemetery 57b.o.17.b.3.3 50.0815, 3.4021 Courcelles-le-Comte German Military Cemetery 57c.a.21.b.4.6 50.1580, 2.7739 Darcy Cemetery (German), Henin Liete Road 44a.p.25.c.3.5 50.4216, 3.4145 Denain German Cemetery 51a.c.30.d.25.95 50.3338, 3.4092 Douai German Cemetery 28.t.20.c.6.4 50.7333, 2.8141 Dourges Commumal Cemetery, German Extension 44a.p.15.a.1.8 50.4436, 3.4385 Ervillers German Military cemetery 57c.b.19.a.5.8 50.1594, 2.8193 Eswars German Cemetery 51a.p.11.d.7.8 50.2681, 3.4779 German Cemetery, Bois de Montigny 44a.x.30.a.4.9 50.3796, 3.6346 German Military Cemetery, Courtrai, Heule 29.g.30.d.0.8 50.8303, 3.2419 German Military Cemetery, near Cross Roads; Terhand, Gheluwe 28.k.15.d.0.1 50.8420, 3.0599 German Military Cemetery, near Waterdamhoek, Moorslede 28.e.21.d.35.30 50.8755, 3.0609 German Military Cemetery, Wervicq 28.q.25.c.4.7 50.7783, 3.0318 Ghent Communal Cemetery (German Plot) Grevillers German Cemetery 57c.g.23.d.9.5 50.1128, 2.8042 Haubordin German Cemetery Henin-sur-Cojeul German Military Cemetery 51b.t.2.a.8.7 50.2239, 2.8320 Heudecourt Communal Cemetery (German) Extension 57c.w.21.a.5.5 50.0216, 3.0791 Hordain Civil Cemetery, German Extension 51a.n.11.c.9.0 50.2635, 3.3189 La Bassee Communal Cemetery (German Extension) 44a.a.12.b.9.4 50.5390, 3.2547 L'Abbaye German Military Cemetery, Vermand (Aisne) 62c.r.27.c.3.5 49.8796, 3.1580 La Chaudiere German Military Cemetery, Vimy 44a.s.18.c.80.80 50.3883, 3.2509 Lambersart German Cemetery, Lambersart 36.j.24.c.8.3 50.6543, 3.0250 Le Cateau German Military Cemetery 57b.k.33.a.8.9 50.1096, 3.5262 Ledeghem German Military Cemetery 28.l.8.d.25.10 50.8507, 3.1259 Lesdain German Cemetery 57b.n.1.a.9.3 50.0968, 3.2714 Lieramont Communal Cemetery, German Extension 62c.e.7.b.1.8 49.9990, 3.0580 Linselles German Military Cemetery 28.w.16.a.8.0 50.7472, 3.0742 Malincourt German Cemetery 57b.n.35.d.5.2 50.0516, 3.3273 Marcke German Military Cemetery 29.m.12.c.4.8 50.8056, 3.2386 Maretz Communal German Extension Cemetery 57b.u.6.b.3.0 50.0475, 3.4156 Marquaix German Cemetery 62c.k.14.b.2.1 49.9469, 3.0728 Marquion German Cemetery 51b.w.16.a.5.5 50.2098, 3.0869 Masnieres German cemetery 57b.g.32.b.2.2 50.1040, 3.2092 Metz-en-Couture German Extension 57c.q.27.a.2.5 50.0627, 3.0761 New German Cemetery, Hautrages 45.h.30.d.9.2 50.4721, 3.7845 Nurlu Communal Cemetery, German Extension 62c.d.4.b.6.5 50.0055, 3.0228 Oignies Communal Cemetery, German Extension 44a.j.26.b.central 50.4752, 3.4340 Oisy le Verger German Military Cemetery 51b.r.19.b.5.7 50.2522, 3.1306 Premont Cemetery, German Extension 57b.u.29.a.4.2 50.0152, 3.3977 Reservoir German Cemetery, Bapaume 57c.n.4.b.2.3 50.0922, 2.8644 St. Symphorien German Cemetery 45.r.19.b.2.0 50.4353, 4.0251 Sauchy Lestree German Military Cemetery 51b.w.5.d.8.4 50.2219, 3.1077 Selvigny German Cemetery 57b.o.19.a.3.8 50.0748, 3.3447 Sorel -le -Grand German Cemetery 57c.v.18.d.3.6 50.0257, 3.0458 Talus Boise German Cemetery Extension, Montauban 62c.a.3.d.5.8 49.9996, 2.7798 Templeux-La Fosse German Cemetery 62c.d.29.c.8.5 49.9686, 3.0314 Terhand German Military Cemetery 28.k.15.d.0.1 50.8420, 3.0599 Urvillers German Military Cemetery 66c.h.5.d.20.40 49.7830, 3.3309 Valenciennes German Cemetery 51a.e.4.b.8.6 50.3705, 3.5409 Vendegies Cross Roads German Cemetery 51a.q.14.d.9.1 50.2573, 3.5178 Viesly Communal Cemetery German Extension 57b.d.29.c.4.3 50.1519, 3.4717 Villers-Guislain German Cemetery 57c.x.2.d.90.95 50.0446, 3.1510 Wervicq German Cemetery 28.q.25.c.4.7 50.7783, 3.0318 Y Ravine German Cemetery No. 2, Beaumont-Hamel 57d.q.11.a.8.5 50.0819, 2.6576 Ytres German Cemetery 57c.p.20.b.7.2 50.0687, 2.9961 Edited 4 August , 2017 by ejwalshe Updated file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 4 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2017 1 hour ago, ejwalshe said: Christine, have you ever heard of Bois de Montigny German Cemetery? I just got a big (64 pages) .pdf from the CWGC: "List of Cemeteries in France and Belgium" compiled during or very shortly after the Armistice, and the location for this cemetery is given as 44.x.30.a.4.9 (50.3796, 3.6346) at the south end of Chemin Dauphin Prolonge by Quaroble. Hi, no I have not read about this particular cemetery. Well, regarding your list - I am not quite sure how it is compiled and what the 64 pages contain. From the list I can see the names of cemeteries which still do exist as German military cemeteries today (and are included in our kmz file) as for example Caudry and German cemeteries that were established by Germans during war times, but where graves have been relocated and concentrated in other cemeteries as for example Nurlu or Sorel-le-Grand. So the list could contain many such cemeteries that do not exist anymore. I guess Jan can be more explicit. Just read that there could have been as much as 10.000 different German burial grounds after WW1 in the war areas at the Western front. When I started to look at previous German military cemeteries (existing around 1920) I thought it could be interesting to have a list (and a map). But quite soon I realised the size of the task and gave up (I was then at the beginning of the letter A of place names). So of course another kmz file with cemeteries existing right after the armistice would be great! Meanwhile I still work with the kmz file of the 192 something existing Volksbund cemeteries in France. Now I have only three regions left to do (but large ones). Compared to your file: I think Senones is missing in your file St Marie aux Mines and Connantre - I think the Volksbund marked the wrong location - I chose a different one - no idea what is correct Frasnoy and Cernay - I am only few meters different from your location (I think it was the other side of the street). I attach my file - hope it works. Christine German cemeteries WW1.kmz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 5 August , 2017 Share Posted 5 August , 2017 15 hours ago, ejwalshe said: I just got a big (64 pages) .pdf from the CWGC: "List of Cemeteries in France and Belgium" compiled during or very shortly after the Armistice, and the location for this cemetery is given as 44.x.30.a.4.9 (50.3796, 3.6346) at the south end of Chemin Dauphin Prolonge by Quaroble. That list is probably about temporary cemeteries, or even battlefields graves. Searching for Quarouble (Quaroble doesn't exist on Google), I found out that the bodies there were moved to Frasnoy ossuary (see below). Information are in Dropbox "_Divers (AN 19860710-2)\Listes cim. et ossuaires\1924-06-10-Circulaire 1110y\1er CA". The way to look for other places is like that: - Find in which district (département, dépt.) the place is, using Google. - Find in which "Région militaire" ("R.M." ruled by a "C.A.", corps d'armée) that dépt. is using the map I uploaded in Dropbox and I copy below. Take care that some dépt. are ruled by two CA. - Go to "_Divers (AN 19860710-2)\Listes cim. et ossuaires\1924-06-10-Circulaire 1110y\xxx CA". - Search for the place in right column (left column is where the bodies were moved). We can see that bodies were in civilian cemetery ("C.Cal") of Quarouble and they have been moved to Frasnoy. Remember it is dated 1924, so maybe different nowadays. - Lists are both handwritten and typed. They are same, except you sometimes got more information on handwritten lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceF Posted 6 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2017 Thanks a lot, Pascal. Very interesting with these lists - very neatly written down. Here everything seems very much in order. Have not find the name of the cemetery (Quarouble, Bois de Montigny) in the Volksbund disc. And for Frasnoy there was no info given from which places reburials were done. So that way I could not have found out - I think. But is there a Bois de Montigny near Quarouble? Found five different Bois de Montigny, but nothing near there. Never mentioned to handle the GPS references - somehow I am always using another grid or so - rarely get to the place I want that way. Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PascalMallet Posted 6 August , 2017 Share Posted 6 August , 2017 Hi Christine, French "Bois" means a wood. On a map by plane dated 1919 (you remember that website called Remonterletemps?), it seems to be a wood very close to the indicated location (it was in front of Chapelle St-Roch and it doesn't exist anymore). Was it called "Bois de Montigny"? I didn't find anything about. Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 8 August , 2017 Share Posted 8 August , 2017 I've added about 60 locations to the .kmz file (from the CWGC .pdf file). Most of these locations no longer exist - the note for each contains the British Trench Map reference and "CWGC". German Cemeteries.kmz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 8 August , 2017 Share Posted 8 August , 2017 I've added about 60 locations to the .kmz file (from the CWGC .pdf file). Most of these locations no longer exist - the note for each contains the British Trench Map reference and "CWGC". German Cemeteries.kmz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mva Posted 8 August , 2017 Share Posted 8 August , 2017 most kind of you ! BUT i haven't yet found out how to read these .kmz files , I'm not an expert, which program could enable me to see them ? I am used to pdf, and don't understand what .kmz is (saw it here first) merci beaucoup de la Somme, martine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejwalshe Posted 8 August , 2017 Share Posted 8 August , 2017 A .kmz file can be opened with Google Maps, or more appropriately, Google Earth. Open Google Earth, select File | Open and navigate to where you saved the .kmz file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now