German cemeteries in France

[mva]

thanks, I'll come back to you if my old computer has problems !

[PascalMallet]

Hello!

 

Here I am again with documents I got in Lille (département Nord, 59), and I have uploaded them in Dropbox (folder "_Divers (AD59)").

 

Some can be interested as they spoke about former cemeteries, no more used. As plots numbers are indicated, it could be easy to find them on a map. Here is a website to check nowadays cadastral survey: http://cadastre.gouv.fr/ (rather easy to use). Of course, numbers can be little different. As Napoleonian cadastral survey was in use until 1930s, it can be also seen on "Archives départementales" websites. Here is the one for dépt. Nord: http://www.archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=recherche_cadastre_napoleonien. Then compare both.

 

Here is content of what I uploaded, in French and English (also in a Word file).

Archives aux AD59.pdf

 

I found posters with lists of corpses, where they were found, with such items, and where they have been buried. They are only French soldiers, but I wonder if such lists exist in other countries. Here is a sample (I don't translate, columns are explained in pdf file):

 

[PascalMallet]

I have also uploaded hand-made blueprints dated 1920s I have found for those cemeteries: Verlinghem, Wavrin, and Wicres (2). Here is a sample:

 

[PascalMallet]

I am still working on Comines cemetery and I need some help to translate that (two different items coming from Germany to put corpses):

 

Umbettungsbehälter (Güter aller Art, anderweitig nicht genannt, Umbettungsbehälter aus Holzstoff gepresst)

Sarkophage, bestehend aus 2 Schalen, außenseitig grau gespritzt, einschließlich Aluminiumrohrnieten.

 

Thanks.

[mva]

Translated into French : PM

[PascalMallet]

In French would be fine, but in English is OK too.

[PascalMallet]

Sorry for my bad reply, but "PM" means "Pascal Mallet" (I often use it) as well as "Private Message"... ;-) Thank you for your PM...

[PascalMallet]

Hello,

 

Once again I need some help to translet that text I found in a map (I already understood a little).

 

Thanks

 

[AliceF]

Pascal,

 

I always read your posts with great interest. Not sure if I can help here, but I am sure somebody else will.

 

GM communal cemetery - mass grave

GR communal cemetery - "row" grave  (not entirely sure what type of graves this comprises)

GE communal cemetery - individual grave

 

It's part of an instruction. The abbreviations are to be written in front of the grave number.

Besides of R and BF all the other numbers/abbreviations give information about the military unit.

 

Christine

[mva]

BF : besondere Formationen = special units - individual grave

R : row grave in (x) of the cemetery (hard to read)

[charlie2]

R - Row grave in the 117 and 123 Infantry Division sections of the cemetery

Edited 16 August , 2017 by charlie2
Division No's added

[mva]

Hello again, a question about this : which date (if one !) ? Nowadays, in the German Cemeteries, there is just the name, the rank (Gefreiter ...) and the date of death, but not the army, regiment ... to which they belonged - which makes researching about a soldier rather difficult. As far as I know, the Allies have forbidden after WW1 that details (army, regiment) are shown on the graves.

Therefore my question : which date ? do you know where the document comes from ?

kind regards, martine

[PascalMallet]

19 hours ago, AliceF said:

Pascal,

 

I always read your posts with great interest. Not sure if I can help here, but I am sure somebody else will.

 

GM communal cemetery - mass grave

GR communal cemetery - "row" grave  (not entirely sure what type of graves this comprises)

GE communal cemetery - individual grave

 

It's part of an instruction. The abbreviations are to be written in front of the grave number.

Besides of R and BF all the other numbers/abbreviations give information about the military unit.

 

Christine

 

Hello Christine,

 

We were speaking about Sweden few minutes ago, a land where I like to be. What is the weather now? Here nice sun at last. After rain, it will be a perfect day to pick mushrooms tomorrow...

 

I am glad that my work interests you. Sometimes I think that it is too much information (and all in French...) but probably someone will pick good information someday.

 

About your translation by "row", do you think it means that soldiers were buried side by side? Same as "R" parts?

 

As you have seen, that map comes from Comines cemetery and I got a lot of information about it, such as that picture (1931) with my grand-father's name (Chaumény Ernest), see below. He was in a massgrave with 9 other French... and 265 Germans. I still work on that matter before posting what I got.

 

Pascal

 

[PascalMallet]

19 hours ago, mva said:

BF : besondere Formationen = special units - individual grave

R : row grave in (x) of the cemetery (hard to read)

 

Thank you for your help, Martine,

 

Same question as to Christine: do you think that "row" means that soldiers were buried side by side? Same as "R" parts? For information, those graves are not organized in rows but in plots.

 

5 hours ago, mva said:

Hello again, a question about this : which date (if one !) ? Nowadays, in the German Cemeteries, there is just the name, the rank (Gefreiter ...) and the date of death, but not the army, regiment ... to which they belonged - which makes researching about a soldier rather difficult. As far as I know, the Allies have forbidden after WW1 that details (army, regiment) are shown on the graves.

Therefore my question : which date ? do you know where the document comes from ?

kind regards, martine

 

That map is dated 1915-1916 (maybe 1917). Obviously, German part of Comines civilian cemetery is called "Gemeinde Friedhof", but when they extended to another land, they organized it by regiments. I post that picture below. Even if it was OK like that, that cemetery as disappeared to be moved to St-Laurent-Blangy, and I can't know if they keep the same organisation there.

 

That picture was given to me by an historian in Comines and he is very protective with his sources, but it was obviously done by German army.

 

Pascal

 

 

[PascalMallet]

18 hours ago, charlie2 said:

R - Row grave in the 117 and 123 Infantry Division sections of the cemetery

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Same question as to Christine and Martine: do you think that "row" means that soldiers were buried side by side? Same as "R" parts? For information, those graves are not organized in rows but in plots (see picture I sent to Martine).

 

Here few translations I still need:

   - Text after "O.P.".

   - Text after "Pi".

   - Text after "Jg".

 

Pascal

 

[AliceF]

40 minutes ago, PascalMallet said:

As you have seen, that map comes from Comines cemetery and I got a lot of information about it, such as that picture (1931) with my grand-father's name (Chaumény Ernest), see below

Pascal, did you find this photo of your grandfather's grave during one of your achieve visits and searches?

Well, this is totally amazing - what a find!!!!!

 

Christine

 

P.S. Weather in Sweden has been quite fine the last two weeks - above 20 degrees. So nothing to complain

[charlie2]

Op - 2. Ostpreussische Infanterie Division

Pi - Res. Pi. Komp. 45 u. MW Komp 243 - Reserve Pionier Kompanie 45 und Minenwerfer Kompanie 243

Jg- Res. Jäger Batl 17 - Reserve Jäger Batallion 17

 

My understanding of Reihengrab is individual graves in row which can also be in a plot, like the 6 spots on a dice for example. A plot is a defined area containing in this case graves. A closer look at the plots shows that they have numbers on the left and right indicating how the graves within the plot are situated.

 

Charlie

Edited 17 August , 2017 by charlie2

[mva]

2. OP = ostpreussische (Prusse orientale/(East Prussia ?) second ostpr. Infanterie Division not quite sure it is 'I. D. at the end)

Pi : difficult to read : Reserve P. Comp. 43 or 45 ? the rest : ???

Jg : reserve Bataillon 17

(as we say in French 'SGDG, sans garantie du gouvernement !)

This is most interesting, I hope I could find something about the German milit. cemetery which was here. I have two texts mentionning it, .... and I suspect an ugly building was built there in the 20' - 30's

kind regards, martine

ps - I have some postcards of German cemeteries here before 1918. Are there some of Comines ?

Edited 17 August , 2017 by mva
added ps

[AOK4]

13 hours ago, mva said:

Hello again, a question about this : which date (if one !) ? Nowadays, in the German Cemeteries, there is just the name, the rank (Gefreiter ...) and the date of death, but not the army, regiment ... to which they belonged - which makes researching about a soldier rather difficult. As far as I know, the Allies have forbidden after WW1 that details (army, regiment) are shown on the graves.

 

 

The Allies did not forbid that. Check out Mons St. Symphorien for one.

[mva]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

The Allies did not forbid that. Check out Mons St. Symphorien for one.

I don't know that cemetery, but I know the Germ. cemeteries here in the Somme : just name, rank, date of death. Nothing else ! just a cross or a stone if Jewish.

[PascalMallet]

23 hours ago, AliceF said:

Pascal, did you find this photo of your grandfather's grave during one of your achieve visits and searches?

Well, this is totally amazing - what a find!!!!!

 

Yes, I found that picture few weeks ago in Archives nationales in Paris. You can imagine how happy I was! And it was the only one of that kind! I got few others in same folder. Here they are. As I saw in any archives, Comines cemetery was one with most information, so it is a luck for me.

 

First shows wooden posters with French names (x) and other with Germans, as well as marble plates. Mr. Paquelin, father of a soldier in same massgrave as my gf, took it in 1926 and sent it to authorities in 1931 to complain they have disappeared.

 

 

In Dec. 1931, marble plates with German names (and few French, they said) were put on the ground (massgraves 108 and/or 109 and/or 110). For French soldiers, there were wooden posters as the one I posted yesterday and a marble plate with 18 names was done but has disappeared now.

 

 

[PascalMallet]

23 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Op - 2. Ostpreussische Infanterie Division

Pi - Res. Pi. Komp. 45 u. MW Komp 243 - Reserve Pionier Kompanie 45 und Minenwerfer Kompanie 243

Jg- Res. Jäger Batl 17 - Reserve Jäger Batallion 17

 

My understanding of Reihengrab is individual graves in row which can also be in a plot, like the 6 spots on a dice for example. A plot is a defined area containing in this case graves. A closer look at the plots shows that they have numbers on the left and right indicating how the graves within the plot are situated.

 

Charlie

 

Thank you very much, Charlie. That is quite clear now. I didn't notice those small numbers. In Lille, I shot a big map (1m50 wide) dated 1924. I now compare it with the one I posted here, and I found out that all that "R" area is told as massgrave (see below, FC is French for MG, area bottom left of monument). So, another question: do you think bodies were in individual casket or only side by side?

 

[PascalMallet]

On 17/08/2017 at 16:44, mva said:

2. OP = ostpreussische (Prusse orientale/(East Prussia ?) second ostpr. Infanterie Division not quite sure it is 'I. D. at the end)

Pi : difficult to read : Reserve P. Comp. 43 or 45 ? the rest : ???

Jg : reserve Bataillon 17

(as we say in French 'SGDG, sans garantie du gouvernement !)

This is most interesting, I hope I could find something about the German milit. cemetery which was here. I have two texts mentionning it, .... and I suspect an ugly building was built there in the 20' - 30's

kind regards, martine

 

Thank you very much, Martine. That fits with what Charlie said.

 

I guess that VDK has more documents than French archives. Maybe you can ask them (I was in touch with Ilka Borowski and she sent me some information: ilka.borowski@volksbund.de), or write to SESMA (Service de l'Entretien des Sépultures Militaires Allemandes), their office in France: 9, rue du Pré-Chaudron - BP 75123 - 57074 Metz Cedex 03.

 

About regiments on a cross, remember that Comines was a German cemetery fully ruled by Germans. After war, they were ruled by French and Allies, and it was different. I read few documents refusing a German family to write nothing but a name and a date on a cross. But there can be exceptions, as Charlie said.

 

Pascal

[PascalMallet]

Sorry Martine, he was not Charlie but AOK4 who spoke.

[PascalMallet]

I got a picture of a metal plate (25 x 18cm) that was accepted in Nantillois cemetery but that was a special request (documents in Dropbox).

 

 

Is it still there?...