German cemeteries in France

[AOK4]

11 minutes ago, egbert said:

Is my picture in post #355 Comines (France)? or one of the other 2 Comines cemeteries discussed here?

 

I need readable names from the crosses to be able to say which cemetery is shown in that picture. I don't recognize the view to be able to tell which cemetery is shown.

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

4 hours ago, egbert said:

Thanks to Christine, Pascal and A-OK Jan for the clarifications and maps. All clear now.

So I take it that my original 1914 aerial shows of course the cemetery in French Comines and it does not have a special name than German Cemetery Comines (France).

To complete the easy-to-understand map made by Christine, I attach few drawings to explain movements inside and from Comines-France cemetery, that I already mentioned in post #353. I kept same colours as Christine (except a nice "bleu de France" for French ;-)

I also wrote a batch of emails today, and I expect to get more information about Brown and Sisters d'Orléans place.

 

Out of our concern here, I have seen 5 British headstones in Comines-France cemetery, but they are dated 1940. I can send picture.

 

 

 

 

 

[AliceF]

Now when the greater picture and the more detailed one has become a little more clear, back to the question regarding soldier Brown. So there are:

According to post #430:

1. Brown SW/JW +22.11.14 1^st Life Guards?, buried where???

2. Brown JW + unknown, burial place?

3. Brown SW + 2.11.14, buried today in St Laurent Blangy (there is only one soldier Brown who died in 1914 in the whole database of the Volksbund)

4. Brown James + 17.10.14, buried in 1914 in Comines, Rue de Wervicq

 

Looking at the CWGC database:

A. Brown JW +2.11.1914, Royal Field Art., no known grave

B. Brown J + 2.11.1914, Dragoons, no known grave

C. no Brown SW, who died in 1914

D. no Brown who died at 17.10.14

 

Looking at Dalgarno in the CWGC database on the registration sheet:

I. Brown John, + 2.11.14, Dragoons, buried in 1914 in Comines, Rue de Wervicq, no known grave

 

Any matches??? – besides B. and I., so that J stands for John (probably mentioned before). 

I  do not get it.

Christine

[PascalMallet]

4 hours ago, AliceF said:

Can't sleep because of a cold :-( so it is better to get up to reply your post...

Now when the greater picture and the more detailed one has become a little more clear, back to the question regarding soldier Brown. So there are:

According to post #430:

1. Brown SW/JW +22.11.14 1^st Life Guards?, buried where???

For me, "S" is a mistake with handwritten "J" (remember that it was written by Germans in 1914 then read and rewritten by French in 1922 and/or 1958). See post #430.

"22" could be a mistake with "2".

I have checked with Life Guards in England and they have no dead or missing who fits (though they were fighting near by, but close enough as said in 4.).

He is said to die in FL10 (Comines-France hospital) and buried in Comines-France cemetery.

2. Brown JW + unknown, burial place?

3. Brown SW + 2.11.14, buried today in St Laurent Blangy (there is only one soldier Brown who died in 1914 in the whole database of the Volksbund)

Same as 1.

4. Brown James + 17.10.14, buried in 1914 in Comines, Rue de Wervicq

I read again that Sister's diary I got (see attached), and found that: "Tuesday Oct. 13th 1914. Two Bayerish chased by an English to the limit of town* act as they want to surrender and put their gun on the ground, but when their ennemy approaches deadly wounded** him by a revolver shot. But he also shoots that traitor who comes wounded to our ambulance [FL11]." *Was he kind of a scout? *She doesn't say he was shot dead (but he could be) but that his wound kills him...

That private was he Brown? Was he not killed on the spot but hardly wounded, then carried to FL11 as well (maybe later), then died few days later and was buried few days later too? Who reported that story: Germans or him?

Then questions: was he moved to Comines-France two weeks later and why? To bury him in France with other France? Than what about Dalgarno and Williams?

Looking at the CWGC database:

A. Brown JW +2.11.1914, Royal Field Art., no known grave

B. Brown J + 2.11.1914, Dragoons, no known grave

That private could be same as 4. Few tracks to follow: Was 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Grey) fighting so close to Comines that Brown could almost enter the city? Was he serving in D Squadron as said for 1? As we know his age (35, so born about 1880), address etc. (son of the late William and Sarah Brown, of Moss-Side, Dunscore, Dumfriesshire. Born at Woodhead, Glencairn, Co. Waterford), would it be possible to find his birth record to see if he was named John or James W? As he was 35, he probably had children and someone is maybe still alive today with some information? (I like this kind of challenge... though I am not used to online English archives).

C. no Brown SW, who died in 1914

D. no Brown who died at 17.10.14

 

Looking at Dalgarno in the CWGC database on the registration sheet:

On different ICRC lists, Dalgarno is said to die in FL10 (France) or FL11 (Belgium). So we could reasonably think about mistakes and maybe those two Brown are the same guy, then buried in Comines-France and now in St-Laurent?

I. Brown John, + 2.11.14, Dragoons, buried in 1914 in Comines, Rue de Wervicq, no known grave

He could be same as B. (then 4?) except his first name. Burial place fits with B and date fits with 4...

 

Any matches??? – besides B. and I., so that J stands for John (probably mentioned before). 

I  do not get it.

Christine

 

[Martin Feledziak]

Soldiers died in the Great War 1914-1919 Transcription

First name(s)	JOHN
Last name	BROWN
Service number	5230
Rank	PRIVATE
Regiment	Household Cavalry and Cavalry of the Line (incl. Yeomanry and Imperial Camel Corps)
Battalion	2nd Dragoons (Scots Greys).
Birth place	GLENCAIRN, THORNHILL, DUMFRIESSHIRE
Residence	GLENCAIRN
Enlistment place	DUMFRIES
Death year	1914
Death day	2
Death month	11
Cause of death	Died
Death place	France & Flanders

[Martin Feledziak]

[PascalMallet]

Tonight, I translated a small part of Sisters' diary. I now attach that picture. Page numbers are because that document I saw was included in a bigger book. So text I already translated was in page 152 (3rd paragraph).

Here two other translations of page 153:

(2nd and 3rd paragraph): "In whole October, we had to pay everything for the ambulance ... we [sometimes] left our wounded go to other ambulances with our mattresses and blanckets..."

(last paragraph): "The shells coming from Warneton on the city cemetery [the one shown by Jan], majors, to avoid any danger when they bury their soldiers decide to bury their dead in our garden; we argue, we discuss and finally we get satisfaction: the neighboring field is requisitioned. The soldiers just dig trenches and put men in, naked." 

Then translation of page 154 (1st paragraph): "On October 31st ... Feldlazarett 11 of 2nd Bayerish Army is taking place". Then few bodies have been moved?

 

[PascalMallet]

Thanks Martin... except instead having only one Brown, we now got maybe three...

[PascalMallet]

Here maybe a picture of Sisters d'Orléans "garden" and another one of the cloister (thanks to Luc). If graves were not in their garden but in a field near by, then place found by Luc and Jan is quite OK.

https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collections/cartes-postales/belgique-comines-warneton-komen-waasten/comines-komen-cimetiere-carte-photo-allemande-guerre-14-18-1-wk-belgien-france-59-319475605.html

https://www.delcampe.net/fr/collections/cartes-postales/belgique-comines-warneton-komen-waasten/comines-komen-kloster-cloitre-religion-carte-photo-allemande-guerre-14-18-1-wk-belgien-319566805.html

 

[AOK4]

25 minutes ago, PascalMallet said:

Tonight, I translated a small part of Sisters' diary. I now attach that picture.

 

 

 

Pascal,

 

Can you give the title of this book?

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

It is not really a book but issue n°2 of Comines-Warneton Historical Assosiation that was not available any more (I have been said) but you can read in Comines. Searching for it again on Internet, it seems to be collected in a new book about WW1. http://www.villedecomines-warneton.be/loisirs/tourisme/office-du-tourisme/decouvrir-la-ville/patrimoine-memoriel/bibliographie-14-18-des-memoires-de-la-societe-d2019histoire-de-cw-et-la-region

I will ask them for you.

 

[PascalMallet]

Sorry, but it is not a new book and issue n°2 is no more available.

[egbert]

On ‎09‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 13:53, AOK4 said:

 

I need readable names from the crosses to be able to say which cemetery is shown in that picture. I don't recognize the view to be able to tell which cemetery is shown.

 

Jan

Picture is too blurry, no identifyable names. This is the best I can do.

the header of the picture says "In Comines 1915"

 

[AOK4]

2 minutes ago, egbert said:

Picture is too blurry, no identifyable names. This is the best I can do.

the header of the picture says "In Comines 1915"

 

I can't say for sure where it is as I haven't seen this view before nor this type of crosses on any picture.

 

Jan

[egbert]

On ‎05‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 10:12, egbert said:

Thanks Pascal and Christine. Just bought the book!!!!! Gekauft!

Here it is- tadaaa

 

Text from prefix:

"We see us in heaven

where God will reunite us hopefully.

Farewell my dear wife...."

The last words from Jean Blanchard, December 4th, 1914

 

Edited 10 January , 2017 by egbert

[AliceF]

Great with all the new information coming in!

Egbert: lucky you - I'll have to wait some more days!

Christine

[AliceF]

It was this card that confused me. How many different handwritings are there? But someone must have tried to read names and to identify soldiers and graves and units? And located the reburial places – wrongly – at Menen? Two names can be found in the Volksbund database both in Menen and St Laurent Blangy. Tricky. The only name I could read was Rudolph Bauer and there is no Rudolph with ph in the Verlustenliste or the Volksbund database…..

Rudolf Bauer

Menen:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=0b55f4dd118da755c83eeac274aeaa41&cHash=41fb9711ff4e1964847b2a4d8302402c

St Laurent Blangy:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=6a7bd031d35bc911373a6adeb0126027&cHash=ad98e2eca7efa87014f16f44f2ee01a5

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=63e029987ef74b109c62e173f8d039b1&cHash=5b4558dee06cb00ffdb3ffb96a301a6e

 

Albert Irmscher

Menen: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=f010c3512c80e776f82664ef4725a98b&cHash=dd68c5b6f2bcabd5964d71042ba01130

St Laurent Blangy:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=ab0e41eb6896c3c8dbfa3905a1b7ae4f&cHash=489586554e93e84c481c1a79f75db926

 

Arthur Keller

Menen:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=c1248466df98c62a582610a3d5398072&cHash=4a2fa5b072b2fc2a620ed814d3d58044

Christine

Source of the card

https://www.delcampe.net/en_US/collectibles/postcards/belgium-zonnebeke/komen-comines-carte-photo-fotokaart-friedhof-der-45-res-division-323712253.html

[AOK4]

I know this seller. He just checks the names he can read with the register in Menen and looks for matches. The death dates are completely wrong.

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

20 hours ago, egbert said:

Here it is- tadaaa

 

Text from prefix:

"We see us in heaven

where God will reunite us hopefully.

Farewell my dear wife...."

The last words from Jean Blanchard, December 4th, 1914

 

Great! I hope you will get as much pleasure as me! About title, I was a bit surprised by French one, as it comes from Jean Blanchard last words, and exact translation could be "Auf wiedersehen dort oben". It's a bit old-fashioned French that I first didn't understand (and why I like it now), as I first thought he said goodbye to the one above. English title (The Great Swindle" contains unfortunately no poetry).

[PascalMallet]

17 hours ago, AliceF said:

It was this card that confused me. How many different handwritings are there? But someone must have tried to read names and to identify soldiers and graves and units? And located the reburial places – wrongly – at Menen? Two names can be found in the Volksbund database both in Menen and St Laurent Blangy. Tricky. The only name I could read was Rudolph Bauer and there is no Rudolph with ph in the Verlustenliste or the Volksbund database…..

 

If German soldiers buried in Comines were moved to St-Laurent-Blangy in 1960s, they are not the only ones there, as ab. 28,000 soldiers were already there. First, it was a very small place, then moved to its current position (500m), then enlarged to receive 4,300 bodies from Comines, ab. half in private graves (parts 4-5-6), others added to existing massgrave (thanks VDK).

 

Rudolf Bauer

 

Menen:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=0b55f4dd118da755c83eeac274aeaa41&cHash=41fb9711ff4e1964847b2a4d8302402c

As Rudolf Bauer had a private grave, it is OK to me he still has one, but strange it is in Menen and not in St-Laurent... As I read about French soldiers, Menen was maybe a choice by his family in the 1920s.

 

St Laurent Blangy:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=6a7bd031d35bc911373a6adeb0126027&cHash=ad98e2eca7efa87014f16f44f2ee01a5

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=63e029987ef74b109c62e173f8d039b1&cHash=5b4558dee06cb00ffdb3ffb96a301a6e

For me, they are other men, buried in St-Laurent long before.

 

Albert Irmscher

 

Menen: http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=f010c3512c80e776f82664ef4725a98b&cHash=dd68c5b6f2bcabd5964d71042ba01130

Same as Bauer?

 

St Laurent Blangy:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=ab0e41eb6896c3c8dbfa3905a1b7ae4f&cHash=489586554e93e84c481c1a79f75db926

He has a private grave in St-Laurent in section 4, where are bodies from Comines. Number 568-569 is because there only one cross for 4 graves, cross being in the center.

 

Arthur Keller

 

Menen:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/detailansicht.html?tx_igverlustsuche_pi2%5Bgid%5D=c1248466df98c62a582610a3d5398072&cHash=4a2fa5b072b2fc2a620ed814d3d58044

Same as others? Nothing in St-Laurent?

 

I will probably go to St-Laurent on Jan. 26th, so I can take pictures.

 

 

[PascalMallet]

I just finished that book about so called "demobilization of the [French] dead" in 1920s. Pierre Lemaitre found a part of his own book in that work and then helped it back to be published. Bad organisation, poor management, corruption and easy (and huge) money! This has to be read! Probably such thing has be written too in Germany and England and it would be very interesting to compare how it was managed by other countries. When you read what can do French managing French corpses, and also how dead French POW in Germany were managed by Germans (not nice either), you can imagine how were managed dead Germans buried in France... Long after WW1, they were still enemies (1,7 miliion dead French, soldiers and civilians, and 4,3 million wounded, 2,5 million dead Germans and 4,3 million wounded, that's not easy to be friends again...) and most of them were resting on foreign land. So, for Brown, Bauer, etc. we can track the name, but do we really track the body?

 

According to that book, 25-30% identified soldiers have been claimed by their family and have been moved in 1920s to their family grave (or home city military square), others (with unknown) have been moved to big military cemeteries. What is the same for Germans? It would explain why some soldiers first buried in Comines are not in St-Laurent.

[AOK4]

Hello,

 

A bit of patience. I will be working on some books in English (I have published a few things in Dutch) about the German military cemeteries in Flanders (history from 1914 until today) in the near future.

 

Jan

[trajan]

27 minutes ago, PascalMallet said:

... Bad organisation, poor management, corruption and easy (and huge) money! ...

 

Off topic, yes, but I think Egbert could add something here via a link on that aspect of reburials...

[PascalMallet]

About Private Brown (Trooper Brown if he served in Life Guards), I got that reply from Peter Storer of Household Cavalry. As you can read, he also thinks about 2nd Dragoons.

Hi Pascal

We have done some further work on this soldier and have been unable to confirm that he was in fact a member of the Life Guards. We certainly have no trace of him in our records. It would appear that none of the soldiers who I initially tentatively identified as being possibilities for our Trooper Brown were in the right place at the right time.

It is possible that our Trooper Brown was attached to the Life Guards and we think that he could possibly have been a member of the 2^nd Dragoon Guards?

As you are probably aware when the regiments of Household Cavalry were brought up to War strength at the beginning of the First World War they absorbed a fairly large number of reservists from other cavalry regiments who then wore Life Guards or Royal Horse Guards badges and insignia. Unfortunately our records relating to these soldiers are incomplete and sketchy. Given the circumstances in August 1914 this is hardly surprising.

We do not hold any substantial records relating to the line cavalry as these are held at Bovington (Royal Armoured Corps records).

I am sorry that we can’t help you any further with this at the moment. If we do come across any further information I will get back to you.

Pete

[AliceF]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎10 at 11:26, PascalMallet said:

Here maybe a picture of Sisters d'Orléans "garden" and another one of the cloister (thanks to Luc).

In the background there is a railway line - I think - that could support that it was the garden of the Sisters.

 

13 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I know this seller. He just checks the names he can read with the register in Menen and looks for matches. The death dates are completely wrong.

Well, this is solved then and one has not to be wondering anymore.

 

4 hours ago, AOK4 said:

A bit of patience. I will be working on some books in English (I have published a few things in Dutch) about the German military cemeteries in Flanders (history from 1914 until today) in the near future.

I am looking forward to this!

 

3 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

About Private Brown (Trooper Brown if he served in Life Guards), I got that reply from Peter Storer of Household Cavalry. As you can read, he also thinks about 2nd Dragoons

Very interesting. So regarding #453 that would mean that

Brown J(ohn), +2.11.14, Dragoons (B.) and Brown SW/JW +22.11.14 1^st Life Guards (1.), might be the same person despite different initials, date of death and unit???

If number 1 and 3 would be the same persons (named in two different documents) then at least the date of death would be right (for B and 3).

 

Christine

P.S. The book has arrived, it's at the post office. But we got for once a snow storm today and I did not feel for fetching it. Tomorrow.