German cemeteries in France

[The Prussian]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

I spotted this postcard on the local sale site, that may be of interest, although I have no idea where this one is, and apparently there are no details on the postcard either. I suspect that it is back in Germany given the text at the top, which looks to refer to '... seinen gefallenen...', but thought it might be of interest to somebody 'out there'!

 

 

 

 

Hello!

I read: "Der Turnverein e.V. seinen gefallenen Mitgliedern" (The gym-club [commemorates] his fallen members) e.V. means registered association. The word "commemorat" (gedenken an) mostly won´t be written. The people understand the sense... Those gravestones were erected in every village in Germany. A lot of them still exist.

Here is a page abut the "Kriegerdenkmale" in my hometown:

http://www.guenter-pilger.de/denkmaeler_2.htm

Edited 7 January , 2017 by The Prussian

[PascalMallet]

Here are few maps to (I hope) better understand situation in Comines.

 

1st shows where is located that tiny French-speaking part of Belgium inside Flanders (blue = French language, red = Dutch language, with names in French).

 

2nd shows today map with the place of three cemeteries there (the one in Sisters d'Orléans has been moved).

 

3rd shows where was located Sisters d'Orléans convent on map dated 1917.

 

 

 

[trajan]

31 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

I read: "Der Turnverein e.V. seinen gefallenen Mitgliedern" ...Here is a page abut the "Kriegerdenkmale" in my hometown:

http://www.guenter-pilger.de/denkmaeler_2.htm

 

Thanks Andy, I thought I saw Mitgliedern there but was not sure. Thanks also for the link - interesting! I did like the 'Stonehenge' one, but was sad to see how much graffiti painting there was around...

[The Prussian]

Yes, Julian. That´s a shame. I live in the largest population in Germany. The kids think , they live in the Bronx or anywhere else in the states...

I hate it. We can avoid it, if we send them 15 years to school and then 20 years in the army... And we have to forbid rap-music...

Edited 7 January , 2017 by The Prussian

[PascalMallet]

On 05/01/2017 at 20:51, AOK4 said:

 

Hello,

 

Most of the graves there were indeed moved twice, once concentrated to the German cemetery which was next to the civilian cemetery and around 1955 to Menen.

The text speaks about the German cemetery in Wervik, rue de Comines, which is where nowadays is still the civilian cemetery. The picture shows this cemetery as well.

The 87 German graves from Rue de Wervicq in Comines were moved to Wervik as well, at some point before 1929. The 3 British graves were moved to Bedford House Cemetery.

(see my book about Menen Wald, p. 191-197.)

 

Jan

 

Hello Jan,

Do you think that private Brown James listed in the attached picture who died in the early days of battle could have been buried in FL11 garden (Comines-Belgium), then moved to Comines-France 2 weeks later (I don't know for what reason...). Then he could be the one resting now in St-Laurent-Blangy? There are similarities between them, but dates and FL (I think "S.W." was written because of a bad handwritten "J.W.")..

Pascal

[AliceF]

8 hours ago, trajan said:

So, the author of John knew Horace's works???!!! 

Hm, do not know the background of Horace sentence, but he writes about dying for the fatherland, while in John 15:9-17 the topic is love and to sacrifice one's life for friends (does Jesus here refer to himself?). I was surprised about the reference to the bible - especially in this context (because I would have rather expected something in the spirit of Horace's sentence).

8 hours ago, egbert said:

Comines German Cemetery as an annex to local civilian cemetery was already discussed here

Sorry, if I am a bit slow with this and still mixing Comines (France) and Komen (Belgium) - and apparently also different cemeteries within Komen. What confused me was that at the back of a card with the same picture as in #419  Menen was mentioned and the name of 3 soldiers (wanted to check again now, but the card seems to have been sold meanwhile and I do not find it anymore - the card had a copy protection and I did not want to use it for posting). I mean if any references were made to Menen, than it should have been in Belgium - but that was obviously wrong then.

#427 map 3:

Would it be possible to identify the  "Ehrenfriedhof Nr. 68 Komen" as described in Jan's book at page 198-199 on that map #3 ?

Christine

[AOK4]

This is the map with both cemeteries: to the right the German graves on the civilian cemetery of Komen/Comines (after 1925 renamed to Ehrenfriedhof Nr. 68 Komen) and to the left the cemetery Comines Rue de Wervicq.

 

Jan

[AOK4]

12 hours ago, PascalMallet said:

Hello Jan,

Do you think that private Brown James listed in the attached picture who died in the early days of battle could have been buried in FL11 garden (Comines-Belgium), then moved to Comines-France 2 weeks later (I don't know for what reason...). Then he could be the one resting now in St-Laurent-Blangy? There are similarities between them, but dates and FL (I think "S.W." was written because of a bad handwritten "J.W.")..

Pascal

 

There was quite a bit of confusion in those days and I have seen examples of graves in Comines France that should be in Comines Belgium etc. as well. I think even the Germans sometimes got things a bit mixed up.

 

Now, the question remains where Brown would have been buried (Comines Belgium or Comines France).

I have found this document listing the three alleged British graves in Comines Rue de Wervicq. This would imply that Brown (no extra info mentioned, which was why I couldn't find more information about him as the name is too come, note also the way of writing Dalgarno, whom I couldn't find either with the information in this file).

If both were buried in Comines Belgium, then Brown and Dalgarno should probably in the Kameradengrab in Langemark among the German remains (as apart from Williams no British remains were apparently found in Comines Rue de Wervicq). It would be interesting to see the old cemetery registers of Comines France (which the VDK should have in Kassel).

 

Jan

[egbert]

12 hours ago, AliceF said:

, Sorry, if I am a bit slow with this and still mixing Comines (France) and Komen (Belgium) - and apparently also different cemeteries within Komen.

Christine

I am with you Christine -now totally confused as well.

 

5 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

There was quite a bit of confusion in those days and I have seen examples of graves in Comines France that should be in Comines Belgium etc. as well. I think even the Germans sometimes got things a bit mixed up.

Jan

Yes Jan, I am mixed up.

Pascals map shows 2 cemeteries in French Comines and 1 in Belgium Comines and yours shows 2 cemeteries in Belgium Comines and 1 in French Comines.

 

What is the exact name of the 2 cemeteries which I have shown in both of my pictures on page 15 , posts #351 and #355 please?

For all of us puzzled Germans and non-Germans: is it possible to take i.e. a GoogleEarth picture with all 3 cemeteries (and ex-cemeteries) marked and exactly named ?

Edited 8 January , 2017 by egbert

[AliceF]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎05 at 18:11, PascalMallet said:

So they speak about that small cemetery in the garden of Sisters d'Orléans convent (Feldlazarett n°11), standing rue de Wervik in Comines (same as rue de Comines in Wervik...)

At least I understand now that this is not the case. # 406 and thus #414 are not referring to the cemetery in Comines (Belgium) in rue de Wervik, but to the one in Wervik-Nord.

I post here the locations of the cemeteries mentioned in #351 Comine France (Egbert's nice map) and # 406 Wervik-Nord  -and  the walk described in the travel report (red line, how it could have been, I have translated the second part to English now as well, will come).

Christine

Walk Wervik_Comines.pdf

[AOK4]

One of the cemeteries of Pascal in France is actually the cemetery in Wervicq Sud, so that has nothing to do with Comines.

 

#351 shows the cemetery in Comines (France)

#355 is for now difficult to locate for sure. Can you read any names?

#406 this picture shows the German graves on the civilian cemetery of Wervik (Nord) as the Germans called it, so in Wervik (Belgium). The calvaire is still on the cemetery today.

#414 the cemetery in garden of the Sisters d'Orléans convent, which is mentioned there, is the cemetery on the right top of my map in #432, called "Rue de Wervicq" in Comines (Belgium).

 

Jan

 

[AliceF]

Like this?

Christine

[AOK4]

13 minutes ago, AliceF said:

Like this?

Christine

 

100% correct!

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

11 hours ago, AOK4 said:

This is the map with both cemeteries: to the right the German graves on the civilian cemetery of Komen/Comines (after 1925 renamed to Ehrenfriedhof Nr. 68 Komen) and to the left the cemetery Comines Rue de Wervicq.

 

Jan

I was on the road all day, so I reconnect only now...

Jan, I think there is some mistake (unless you only mistake between right and left). On the left side, there is a cemetery I don't know and it is now Comines-Belgium cemetery. It is on Chaussée (Road) of Warneton, not Rue de Wervicq. The place on the upper right is not on Rue de Wervik either. Sisters d'Orléans convent was on the right but a bit out of your map (I can make a quick drawing if you request). Red sign seems to be same place where private Wiliams was said to be buried and it is probably a location mistake.

[AOK4]

Pascal,

 

This is an original with the location from the 1920's. Christine put everything as it is on today's map. Left is the German cemetery on the civilian cemetery of Comines (Belgium). The cemetery on the right is the cemetery "Rue de Wervicq".

The map comes from the original file of the cemetery "Rue de Wervicq" which was used for the excavations etc.

 

Jan

[PascalMallet]

11 hours ago, AOK4 said:

 

There was quite a bit of confusion in those days and I have seen examples of graves in Comines France that should be in Comines Belgium etc. as well. I think even the Germans sometimes got things a bit mixed up.

 

Now, the question remains where Brown would have been buried (Comines Belgium or Comines France).

I have found this document listing the three alleged British graves in Comines Rue de Wervicq. This would imply that Brown (no extra info mentioned, which was why I couldn't find more information about him as the name is too come, note also the way of writing Dalgarno, whom I couldn't find either with the information in this file).

If both were buried in Comines Belgium, then Brown and Dalgarno should probably in the Kameradengrab in Langemark among the German remains (as apart from Williams no British remains were apparently found in Comines Rue de Wervicq). It would be interesting to see the old cemetery registers of Comines France (which the VDK should have in Kassel).

 

Jan

Thank you for that new picture (with a strange error in the stamp: SBELGE instead of BELGES!!! Could be collector.)

I will contact Kassel again. Here is two documents I already got from them: 1st is page with my grand-father's name (Chaumény) and other French first buried in massgrave 108 in Comines. 2nd is list of corpses in massgraves in Comines-France cemetery ("F" for French and "A" for English).

[AliceF]

Here I try to summarise the reburials of what has been mentioned so far and what I understood from Jan's book on Menen wald.

White is German soldiers, red British, blue French. Probably more details to add.

Christine

[PascalMallet]

 

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

Pascal,

 

This is an original with the location from the 1920's. Christine put everything as it is on today's map. Left is the German cemetery on the civilian cemetery of Comines (Belgium). The cemetery on the right is the cemetery "Rue de Wervicq".

The map comes from the original file of the cemetery "Rue de Wervicq" which was used for the excavations etc.

 

Jan

6 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

 

To find location of Sisters d'Orléans, I compared a map dated 1917 with Google today (see my post #427) and they perfectly fit, excepted Rue d'Orléans that didn't exist in 1917 has it was created on convent ruins location. So we can consider that map is rather correct.

If I make the same with that map dated 1920's, it doesn't fit so good and one street is missing as well as convent. Anyway, location in red is not on Rue de Wervicq, but I think we can consider it is the same place (difference is few 100m) with some confusion (everything was destroyed there).

[PascalMallet]

1 hour ago, AliceF said:

Here I try to summarise the reburials of what has been mentioned so far and what I understood from Jan's book on Menen wald.

White is German soldiers, red British, blue French. Probably more details to add.

Christine

Except "Rue de Wervicq" that I discuss with Jan (but difference is tiny), and speaking only for France, it is OK for me (and Wervicq-Sud is on right location, I made a little mistake on my map). If you zoom with Google on Comines-France cemetery, you can see the German monument in the middle.

[CROONAERT]

On ‎03‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 14:33, Martin Feledziak said:

 

 Dave, does your source indicate burials at Servon Melzicourt from 1870, I noticed some old stones on site which looked pre-WW1

 

 

 

No, it just mentions that it only contains WW1 graves.

 

Dave.

[AOK4]

Well, the graves were in the garden of the convent. The convent was located in the Rue de Wervicq, the garden would be at some distance behind it, so it's normal the cemetery wasn't located immediately on the street. My map is an original map of the cemetery used for the excavations (and seems to fit with the trench map coordinates noted in the burial return sheet of Williams who was buried there). I can't understand why you can't accept that location.

 

Christine has everything correct in her google maps.

[PascalMallet]

8 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Well, the graves were in the garden of the convent. The convent was located in the Rue de Wervicq, the garden would be at some distance behind it, so it's normal the cemetery wasn't located immediately on the street. My map is an original map of the cemetery used for the excavations (and seems to fit with the trench map coordinates noted in the burial return sheet of Williams who was buried there). I can't understand why you can't accept that location.

 

Christine has everything correct in her google maps.

I finally said that difference for me was only 100-200m and you are right to say that it could be the distance to the end of their garden. The problem for me was that missing street on your map (and houses instead) as it is in 1917. The only other map I found on Internet is dated 1854 and there is almost only fields there: http://uurl.kbr.be/1040027

 

Pascal

[Martin Feledziak]

10 hours ago, CROONAERT said:

 

No, it just mentions that it only contains WW1 graves.

 

Dave.

Thanks Dave,

That means that the memorial is just a worn out WW1 stone. 

[egbert]

Thanks to Christine, Pascal and A-OK Jan for the clarifications and maps. All clear now.

So I take it that my original 1914 aerial shows of course the cemetery in French Comines and it does not have a special name than German Cemetery Comines (France).

[egbert]

Is my picture in post #355 Comines (France)? or one of the other 2 Comines cemeteries discussed here?