Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, AmericanTommy said:

1st Wiltshire Rifle Volunteers with beautiful black embroidered titles. 

 

Superb photos!  They really exemplify how low (and thus comfortable to wear) the collar was on these 5-button undress frocks.  Great picture too of a man with bandsmen's wings, but the shoulder cords of a bugler (and another behind him in the larger photo)!

Edited 9 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Wings, be that bandsman or drummer's crowsnest, are unusual on a frock, are they not?

The usual way of distinguishing band, drum or bugle status in undress was the relevant appointment badge. 

 

These old photos are a delight in the way they show the challenges to uniformity and compliance.

 

Never say never.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Wings, be that bandsman or drummer's crowsnest, are unusual on a frock, are they not?

The usual way of distinguishing band, drum or bugle status in undress was the relevant appointment badge. 

 

These old photos are a delight in the way they show the challenges to uniformity and compliance.

 

Never say never.

 

Yes indeed, I have oft heard it said that by this stage full dress was not issued to VF and so ‘coloured’ frocks were the closest that they could get.

Edited 9 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

17 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I beg to suggest your comments on the lance-bombardier with two Good Conduct badges need gentle correction.

 

 

I stand corrected thank you! 

 

On the subject of Artillery here is one taken at Jullundur in India, 1908.  Note the size of the crown!  under magnification the badge is all one piece and as was common in India just held in place, probably with hook and eyes.  

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I stand corrected thank you! 

 

On the subject of Artillery here is one taken at Jullundur in India, 1908.  Note the size of the crown!  under magnification the badge is all one piece and as was common in India just held in place, probably with hook and eyes.  

 

 

 

 

I am really rather excited by this photo, Toby.  First it shows very clearly the ORs blue patrol jacket in the first decade of its use, secondly the Battery Sergeant Major or BQMS (IIRC both wore the same badge, but the latter on right arm only) is wearing a new pattern forage cap with the brass bound peak of a staff sergeant (BSMs fell into that superior category), something that I have NEVER seen before.  It seems to reflect the previous cap (ironically not worn by RA) whose peak was bullion bound for staff sergeants.  Finally, the relaxed pose with legs entwined and arm around shoulders is extraordinarily informal and relaxed and thus rather rare.  The two gunners at left have long service, as marked by their left forearm full of good conduct badges.  All-in-all a truly striking snapshot in time.  The larger crown was a feature then of the senior man in a sub-unit and infantry colour sergeants also had the same size.  It shows too how once acclimatised an Indian Winter was cold enough to make a Norfolk jacket and thick woollen stockings comfortable dress!

 

"[Jullundur] is one of the oldest cantonments in India, the construction of which was started in 1848 after the first Anglo-Sikh War, when the British settled in Northern India. The original scope of the cantonment was limited to troops to quell disturbances from adjoining States for the maintenance of peace and order. In 1920 the cantonment was the scene of mutiny by Irish soldiers, who took down the Union Flag and replaced it by the flag of the Irish Republic, proclaimed at the time in Dublin."

Edited 10 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Yes, even before reading the comments above I was amazed to see the informality shown by the BSM and the two long-serving soldiers [presumably his contemporaries, 4 badges = 16 years service minimum]. Perhaps it is the aftermath of a parade on which the medal man [Long Service ?] received his gong, after which drink was taken.

Even so, NCOs were not allowed to socialise with their juniors, so perhaps the drink was consumed downtown, and the man in civvies is indeed a civilian contractor or governement servant.

 

And whose bitch is that?

 

These pictures invite flights of imagination.

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Yes, even before reading the comments above I was amazed to see the informality shown by the BSM and the two long-serving soldiers [presumably his contemporaries, 4 badges = 16 years service minimum]. Perhaps it is the aftermath of a parade on which the medal man [Long Service ?] received his gong, after which drink was taken.

Even so, NCOs were not allowed to socialise with their juniors, so perhaps the drink was consumed downtown, and the man in civvies is indeed a civilian contractor or governement servant.

 

And whose bitch is that?

 

These pictures invite flights of imagination.

 

There were all-ranks social events known as battery/squadron/company “smoking concerts”.  There was still an overtone of formality at such events, but they were an opportunity for all-ranks to socialise together within a controlled environment.  They were usually funded from the surplus of the barracks damages fund, which was collected as a mandatory weekly deduction, collected on pay day, but only used for barrack repair when and where necessary.  Good interior economy, the sign of a well disciplined unit, invariably led to an annual surplus.  This was part of the culture and carried on for generations.  There was usually a “smoker”, as they were known for short, every 6-months.

Perhaps the civilian is the unit wet canteen manager, who was frequently a time-served ex SNCO, many of whom stayed on in India.

Edited 10 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

But a medal at a smoker?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

But a medal at a smoker?

 

I’m not suggesting it definitely was a smoker, Muerrisch, just that that was where semi-social mixing between ranks took place.  It might have been a medal presentation at a formal parade, but undress would have been unlikely so I am unclear.  LSGC were often presented slightly informally by the turn of the century, especially so that on-the-strength wives could attend where appropriate.  Unfortunately we can only speculate.

Edited 10 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Latest addition and it is in my opinion a stunner! 1st Btn West Riding Regiment, Mounted Infantry.  c1903.  Lots to see here! 

 

A great study of the W.RIDING cloth shoulder title on early SD with detachable shoulder boards (red piping as per infantry), early SMLE in a rather unusual style clip that is a new variant to me! He wears the 1897 MI Bandolier, note the brown "pouch" worn to the rear I can't work out is this is a pouch of a method of securing the SMLE to the rider. 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photo Toby, thank you for posting it.  I have never seen the rifle clip in use before.

Edited 16 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I have never seen the rifle clip in use before.

 

Its a totally new device to me!  Doesn't look all that stable.

 

He is a cracking postcard sent from Fort George on Guernsey. Members of the 2nd  Manchesters. Love the Greatcoats. 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve never seen that style of dismounted greatcoat before, either.  The two-buttoned   apertures set into the sides seem a clever idea to enable access to pockets inside, I can’t imagine that they permitted hand warming!

[Pat Atkins]

Forgive my ignorance, there seems to be a smaller insignia below the 'Manchester' title which I can't really make out - what would it be? Battalion? Also, that lad on the left needs a haircut...

 

Cheers, Pat.

[Toby Brayley]

32 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Forgive my ignorance, there seems to be a smaller insignia below the 'Manchester' title which I can't really make out - what would it be? Battalion? Also, that lad on the left needs a haircut...

 

Cheers, Pat.

 

Pat that is indeed the Battalion number.  If you have a  browse through the thread there are various examples. The VF usually had a V as well as the Btn number. 

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve never seen that style of dismounted greatcoat before, either.  The two-buttoned   apertures set into the sides seem a clever idea to enable access to pockets inside, I can’t imagine that they permitted hand warming!

 

I have never seen it, it is also the only shot I have seen of Cloth STs on Greatcoats. It must date from c1905 as the SD cap is in use. 

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks - I've been dipping in and out, but should really give the thread a proper read.

 

Cheers, Pat.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

I have never seen it, it is also the only shot I have seen of Cloth STs on Greatcoats. It must date from c1905 as the SD cap is in use. 

 

Yes, I suspect that the greatcoat might have been a part of the trials then going on into the development of SD in the round.

Edited 17 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

A rather unusual addition to the collection. Refreshing to see an "action shot" on this postcard sent to Horsham on May 19th 1908.  Sadly this was part of a collection of PCs depicting the same wedding that was broken up and sold.  Not only does it provide a nice study of the RA dress uniform and Home Service Helmet but the Crossed Guns with Crown (1st Prize Battery) and Crosse Flags (upper right, Instructor) make an appearance.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Nice view of the ‘girdle’ in use too.

[Toby Brayley]

Latest addition to the collection. I don't think the ASC cloth shoulder titles or the ASC Brodrick have made an appearance yet!   Lots of odd interesting details here, at first I thought the other chaps in the odd "soft" hats might be civilian but they are clearly the ASC cap badges. They also are wearing a style of fatigue wear that is new to me! 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

This is the 2nd RWF winning team for the Gillespie Cup, c. 1910, India or Burma.

Officer is Captain Dickson, S_M is Murphy, far left is "Black Jack" Stanway, later Lt-Col.

 

Of interest is the apparent small badge above two sergeants' chevrons, right sleeve only, so not a crown. It may just be gapping caused by hook and eye  fastening.l.

Edited 21 November , 2017 by Muerrisch

[Toby Brayley]

rather lovely large A4 sized card. Colour Sergeants of the Royal Guernsey Militia (2 of whom are South Africa Veterans). The small Sergeant wears the 5 button frock the others the are wearing  tunics. Nice detailing on the crossed flags. 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

Interesting shot of an RFA chap with shoulder twists AND brass RFA title!   

 

Sadly not mine but plucked from the web with permission. 

Edited 27 November , 2017 by Toby Brayley

[RFA Gunner]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Interesting shot of an RFA chap with shoulder twists AND brass RFA title!   

 

Sadly not mine but plucked from the web with permission. 

A very clear pic. One interesting detail I noticed was that one of the inner flaps of his bandolier is undone and hanging out. I think this is the only time I have seen one of these inner flaps visible in a photo from the time.

Edited 27 November , 2017 by RFA Gunner

[Toby Brayley]

Rifles affiliated volunteer cyclist.  Proficient Sjt, interesting to see the cyclists badge in Rifles colours.